Analyzing Microbiome Report
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areefer01
2500 Club Member
I have no relation to the business. I've used the service once so understand how the reporting works which is what I replied. You get a report, then follow up. It has nothing to do with them pushing product(s).
Instant Tank Cycle
Set up my tank Friday. Placed a sizeable chunk of frozen brine shrimp into the filter sock to stop it messing up the tank. Saturday PM Ammonia is 0 Saturday PM added another chunk of frozen brine shrimp different area of sump. Added seeded live rock from other tanks also. Sunday PM Ammonia...www.reef2reef.com
summary of that thread: Eli tells us we can't know if a reef tank is cycled without testing for it.
result: four years of back links for cycles verified without testing, free of charge, that's a recurring them...free vs for cost opining. it always amazed me the phD could not cycle tanks (or wouldn't) free of charge, we don't need any test kits for cycling tanks, therefore I'm not sure we need dna testing/kits for anything much right now/no response tools available
there's nothing we can add to drive the results in ways Eli says is best. he directly said something was not possible that we show possible, he defended it rather deeply, that makes me a skeptic from here on out.
to this date, someone can describe their cycle setup and we'll state if it's cycled or not, then we can be audited on a calibrated seneye to check for accuracy. it's possible to cycle reef tanks without testing, that's the only way I do it.
You really need to stay on topic. No one is talking about cycling tanks.
Randy Holmes-Farley
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My Tank Thread
I should have clarified I was talking about the op’s report, but if one did observe those bits of dna, what would you recommend they do?
bushdoc
Valuable Member
My 2c- 9 months old tank is regarded by many as a relatively New tank. It seems to have good biodiversity though. Balance is a process and clearly Climax community has not yet been established. It will still shift in time.
Now about this discussion-Microbiome testing is still relatively new in Aquarium Hobby. I would give it a time to develop. I see lots of opinions here, some seem to be just personal points of view, without scientific basis, some trying to dig deeper into the subject.
It’s becoming problematic, when some of personal points of view are interpreted by readers as scientific truths.
Now about this discussion-Microbiome testing is still relatively new in Aquarium Hobby. I would give it a time to develop. I see lots of opinions here, some seem to be just personal points of view, without scientific basis, some trying to dig deeper into the subject.
It’s becoming problematic, when some of personal points of view are interpreted by readers as scientific truths.
areefer01
2500 Club Member
It depends on what is in the report. With regards to my answer to your question if it is something like velvet, flukes, brooklynella it would either answer my question as to why I'm losing animals or confirmation so I could assess treatment. Treating, fallow, waiting, etc. Depends what protocols or practices are used. In my case it would be one of waiting as I do not have QT systems in place. Only observation/isolation. With regards to diversity and comparing to other hobbyist systems it wasn't of concern to me. The reason for my use of the eDNA report was out of curiosity.
Caveat here though is that I'm assuming testing methodologies, protocols, and quality control are correct.
TWYOUNG
Well-Known Member
A point and a question please. Regarding bushdoc's comment about his tank having good diversity, I believe Ryan Bachelor in his Biome study did not necessarily consider diversity as a strictly positive attribute of systems. His point was a system could be full of various nuisance algae and pests which contribute to that high "diversity" score.
My question is about the results I should expect to receive. I sent two samples in, one for Microbiome and one for DNA. The email I received was, "Your DNA test results are ready", yet I have my Biome information. Are these the results from BOTH of those samples or should I be expecting more? Part of my confusion is related to the lack of pathogens in my report, other than one that only effects Seahorses. I'm nearly certain I had Cryptocaryon irritans in my tank a few months ago. If anyone has done this testing could clarify this I'd appreciate it. Thanks
My question is about the results I should expect to receive. I sent two samples in, one for Microbiome and one for DNA. The email I received was, "Your DNA test results are ready", yet I have my Biome information. Are these the results from BOTH of those samples or should I be expecting more? Part of my confusion is related to the lack of pathogens in my report, other than one that only effects Seahorses. I'm nearly certain I had Cryptocaryon irritans in my tank a few months ago. If anyone has done this testing could clarify this I'd appreciate it. Thanks
I am 100% sure that test cannot be used to rule out the presence of crypto or any other disease. sorry I do not have information on their response timing for report outcomes, awaiting to see what others say in the matter based on prior subscriptions to this service.
analyzing a small tiny fractional % of surface area + some drops of water cannot help you manage fish disease in any possible way. if the markers happen to be found in a given sample then they'll report it; but many markers may be present in the system and just missed by the sample too
they aren't able to ensure their rubble is free of disease by testing: they'd have to remove any hosts for the predetermined amount of time to state the rubble is safe, and they indeed could use their testing to also state that. after the known fallow time, the crypto is likely to not show in the test sampling
this is too early for the technique to be used as a blanket system help; selling based on novelty is absolutely smart however. Kudos to Eli for forming a business model in a hungry market. that's straight up cap/I must congratulate him. He will be so practiced in the matter when the testing does advance he'll have a head start in the market as validity and relevancy and controlled response ability develops.
analyzing a small tiny fractional % of surface area + some drops of water cannot help you manage fish disease in any possible way. if the markers happen to be found in a given sample then they'll report it; but many markers may be present in the system and just missed by the sample too
they aren't able to ensure their rubble is free of disease by testing: they'd have to remove any hosts for the predetermined amount of time to state the rubble is safe, and they indeed could use their testing to also state that. after the known fallow time, the crypto is likely to not show in the test sampling
this is too early for the technique to be used as a blanket system help; selling based on novelty is absolutely smart however. Kudos to Eli for forming a business model in a hungry market. that's straight up cap/I must congratulate him. He will be so practiced in the matter when the testing does advance he'll have a head start in the market as validity and relevancy and controlled response ability develops.
areefer01
2500 Club Member
I received two separate emails (microbiome and DNA was noted in subject line). A few days later a follow up message talking a bit about the results. I had mentioned this earlier in the reply before it got off track. If you have any questions or concerns I would recommend reaching out to them through email. They are both responsive and approachable.
Note that I had tried this back in 2020 or 2021 - forget the date exactly. I know he is constantly working on data model, reporting, and correspondence.
@AquaBiomics
Edit: inviting source to the conversation
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cpschult
Valuable Member
It’s really dependent on the size of your system, and the level of crypto/other diseases. Anything in the water column should be fairly evenly dispersed thanks to wavemakers and/or return pumps. Your argument that a tiny sample isn’t a representative sample is kind of a fallacy. Furthermore, it appears they are doing fairly elaborate sequencing. That means that ANY dna in the sample should be showing up. They do note on their website that a large single source can interfere with results but generally require a re-test.
Brandon what is your background in bacteria/genetic sequencing? I’m seeing you talk about this subject without much substance and it’s not making me feel great.
Eli's stance on my large work thread made me not feel great with his statements, they seemed sales tilted, and what you're implying is strong support of Eli's methods = a sale market gradient exists. we're not going to convince each other but the market is valid to take part in
If I told you my background in biology it wouldn't change the fact we're not going to convince each other of this test's validity, utility, or application in reefing or an ability to alter a new test outcome in any meaningful way. I rate the test as totally unhelpful in disease management, and when it's a sticky in the disease forum to use this test as a crucial component in disease management I'll begin to think otherwise
currently, quarantine and fallow hold those regards.
we are able to cycle reef tanks, dry and wet starts, without testing/that alone handles nearly all web interactions I do with reefs.
we are able to de-age, clean, mature out and guide invasions out of reef tanks without his testing, that comprises the other portion of what I do online/tank rehab work.
I consider it novelty currently, but with massive potential. when it makes tank cycling and tank rehab work more efficient I'll think it's beyond novelty.
If I told you my background in biology it wouldn't change the fact we're not going to convince each other of this test's validity, utility, or application in reefing or an ability to alter a new test outcome in any meaningful way. I rate the test as totally unhelpful in disease management, and when it's a sticky in the disease forum to use this test as a crucial component in disease management I'll begin to think otherwise
currently, quarantine and fallow hold those regards.
we are able to cycle reef tanks, dry and wet starts, without testing/that alone handles nearly all web interactions I do with reefs.
we are able to de-age, clean, mature out and guide invasions out of reef tanks without his testing, that comprises the other portion of what I do online/tank rehab work.
I consider it novelty currently, but with massive potential. when it makes tank cycling and tank rehab work more efficient I'll think it's beyond novelty.
If I had to rate the chemistry forum's acceptance of Eli's test in % utility for reefing I'd rate it as ~+/-40%. that's low.
where do I get that guesstimate: from reading about this type of testing in posts in the chem forum, watching Randy respond, watching Dan respond, trade chemists etc.
We can pull up many threads in the chemistry forum to read how they receive this test, they're a fair bunch to watch for troubleshoots and pitfalls in given test claims, a bunch of scrutinizing chemists give a valuable perspective pattern.
Eli has a long way to go to get buy in from our chemistry forum, that's the takeaway any searching on the matter shows
where do I get that guesstimate: from reading about this type of testing in posts in the chem forum, watching Randy respond, watching Dan respond, trade chemists etc.
We can pull up many threads in the chemistry forum to read how they receive this test, they're a fair bunch to watch for troubleshoots and pitfalls in given test claims, a bunch of scrutinizing chemists give a valuable perspective pattern.
Eli has a long way to go to get buy in from our chemistry forum, that's the takeaway any searching on the matter shows
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areefer01
2500 Club Member
To be clear the OP wasn't asking for validity but rather timeline of reports and if there was additional information. Either you can answer that or not.
If you want to talk about the business model or if it is snake oil or whatever other hang up you have with it then start another thread.
cpschult
Valuable Member
I'm not implying, I'm saying DNA sequencing works.
You aren't questioning what to do with those results as Randy and Taricha do.
OP I hope they follow up soon!
I've reached out to Aquabiomics to see what kind of equipment they are using. If they get back to me I'll start a thread in the chemistry forum about it.
TWYOUNG
Well-Known Member
Yes, they resubmitted my DNA sample at their expense as they felt my sample was adequate but my results showed nothing but worm DNA. I should have the new results soon and they are offering me a free future repeat of my choice of either DNA or Microbiome analysis.
