Another denitrification biological thread

chicago · Mar 21, 2018

ok. So I have large system. 600 gallon plus. In the past used DSB in my 300 gallon sump to control nitrate. I trashed it and got 14 Marine pure bio blocks and along wit hmy live rocks to control nitrate. Well the blocks been in low flow are not denting the nitrate. I was planning on perhaps putting the blocks in a container so only tops of them get flow..

Another thought is to install a large 6 inch round by 4 foot tube full of bio media. And allow tank wAter to pass through. The end of the tube would lack oxygen for nitrate conversion to gas with possible feed for some vodka or vinegar Addition to feed bacteria.

Other thought. Is to take some of the blocks and use that media in the reactor. Fabricate some type of square media reactor to house let's say five of these blocks and feed it.

Thoughts. Please. Question also. If the blocks in the sump are only creating nitrate. A nitrate factor like in the days of bio balls in a drip plate, The will anyreactor be able to handle the nitrate. ...?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 21, 2018

How high is nitrate?

Denitrification requires organic matter. I’d just try adding some vinegar or vodka and see what happens over a few weeks.

chicago · Mar 21, 2018

Ok easy way sounds good, thanks

chicago · Mar 21, 2018

Nitrate above 50. Maybe closer to 60.

chicago · Mar 21, 2018

Right now no Sps in Tank yet.

Skynyrd Fish · Mar 21, 2018

Cheato will suck it up also.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 22, 2018

Here are some guides that may help, but I think you can ramp up dosing faster than these articles recommend:

Vinegar Dosing Methodology for the Marine Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium

Vodka Dosing...Distilled!
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

chicago · Mar 22, 2018

Have used cheato before morning guy try again.

But on this subject. Randy. Please remind me why the heavy feedings to my system on a daily basis of food for 30 fish does not supply the carbon needed? And this the need to add a daily dose of vinegar or vodka to add carbon. Thanks

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 22, 2018

chicago said:
Have used cheato before morning guy try again.

But on this subject. Randy. Please remind me why the heavy feedings to my system on a daily basis of food for 30 fish does not supply the carbon needed? And this the need to add a daily dose of vinegar or vodka to add carbon. Thanks

The heavy feedings are also adding extra N and P. No matter how much food you feed, you are adding all three. It's sort of like chasing your tail to try to add organic carbon that way.

Let's take that ratio of C:N

in your foods to be typical of normal marine tissues.

So a fish eats some of that food, metabolizes much of the organic C to CO2 (which gets released from the tank), the organic N to ammonia (and then to nitrate), and the organic P to phosphate.

Then you are left with some amount of organic C (but much less than in the food), most of the N that was in the food ending up as nitrate (at least until something takes it up again) and most of the P that was in the food ending up as phosphate in the water (again, at least until something takes it up).

Consequently, the water now has a lower ratio of C: (N or P) than did the initial foods.

Then when you want denitrification to take place, you have some deficit of organic C int eh water relative to the nutrients, and denitrification along may not be able to do the job adequately without additional organic carbon.

Obviously, there are lots of additional process, such as photosynthetic organisms using up N and P and possibly creating some organic C, but the amount of this happening in a reef tank may not be enough to keep N and P where you want them.

chicago · Mar 22, 2018

Thanks for the info

chicago · Mar 22, 2018

Thanks for the explanation. Now makes sense. Do you have any thoughts on the comments by some ssying that the whole process needs to take place in the SAME media. Meaning that nitrate is not processed unless that bacteria is close to the the same site that converted ammonia to nitrite to nitrate.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 22, 2018

chicago said:
Thanks for the explanation. Now makes sense. Do you have any thoughts on the comments by some ssying that the whole process needs to take place in the SAME media. Meaning that nitrate is not processed unless that bacteria is close to the the same site that converted ammonia to nitrite to nitrate.

It definitely is not needed, so someone who says that definitively is not understanding the processes, but it can be more efficient, which is one reason bioballs may be undesirable if elevated nitrate is a concern:.

Here's that comment from a nitrate article of mine:

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium - REEFEDITION
http://www.reefedition.com/nitrate-in-the-reef-aquarium/

Filters Designed To Facilitate The Nitrogen Cycle.

Filters such as trickle filters using traditional bioballs do a fine job of processing ammonia to nitrite to nitrate, but do nothing with the nitrate. It is often non-intuitive to many aquarists, but removing such a filter altogether may actually help reduce nitrate. Consequently, slowly removing them and allowing more of the nitrogen processing to take place on and in the live rock and sand can be beneficial.

It is not that any less nitrate is produced when such a filter is removed, it is a question of what happens to the nitrate after it is produced. When nitrate is produced on the surface of impermeable media such as bioballs, it mixes into the entire water column, and then has to find its way, by diffusion, to the places where it may be reduced (inside of live rock and sand, for instance).

If it is produced on the surface of live rock or sand, then the local concentration of nitrate is higher there than in the first case above, and it is more likely to diffuse into the rock and sand to be reduced to N2.

In a reef aquarium with adequate live rock, there is little use for a trickle filter, so in general they can be safely removed.

chicago · Mar 22, 2018

Ok. I understand that. But what I was saying was basically any denitrate teactircto wirk properly has to have two stages. One that is aerobic and the second one that is anaerobic.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 22, 2018

chicago said:
Ok. I understand that. But what I was saying was basically any denitrate teactircto wirk properly has to have two stages. One that is aerobic and the second one that is anaerobic.

That is likely generally true, but doesn't have to be true.

vio · Mar 22, 2018

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
That is likely generally true, but doesn't have to be true.

Wow, so true, when i try to make my DIY Denitrification Sulfur Filter , some friends tell me ......WONT work, they want me to give up , suggest me to...................have to be close Reactor for anaerobic Bacteria, is open , NO gas , easy add. Bacteria and .........works.

MnFish1 · Mar 22, 2018

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
The heavy feedings are also adding extra N and P. No matter how much food you feed, you are adding all three. It's sort of like chasing your tail to try to add organic carbon that way.

Let's take that ratio of C:N in your foods to be typical of normal marine tissues.

So a fish eats some of that food, metabolizes much of the organic C to CO2 (which gets released from the tank), the organic N to ammonia (and then to nitrate), and the organic P to phosphate.

Then you are left with some amount of organic C (but much less than in the food), most of the N that was in the food ending up as nitrate (at least until something takes it up again) and most of the P that was in the food ending up as phosphate in the water (again, at least until something takes it up).

Consequently, the water now has a lower ratio of C: (N or P) than did the initial foods.

Then when you want denitrification to take place, you have some deficit of organic C int eh water relative to the nutrients, and denitrification along may not be able to do the job adequately without additional organic carbon.

Obviously, there are lots of additional process, such as photosynthetic organisms using up N and P and possibly creating some organic C, but the amount of this happening in a reef tank may not be enough to keep N and P where you want them.

Most of the n and p and c in the food is used by the fish that eats it for growth and staying alive. There is ammonia and co2 generated of course but I’m Would think it’s a small percentage of the total c n p in the food

chicago · Mar 22, 2018

Nice info. Guys. Vio
How is your unit working. What’s in there. What flow rate. Using sulfur no feed then. Pros and cons of sulfur? Thanks

vio · Mar 22, 2018

chicago said:
Nice info. Guys. Vio
How is your unit working. What’s in there. What flow rate. Using sulfur no feed then. Pros and cons of sulfur? Thanks

First i apologies for 2 thinks , English is NOT my fist language , i am from Romania , second i don't want to hijack the OP.
I work hard , to find a easy way to maintain Reef Tanks , 30 years exp. i try all you may Google , read etc. I work hard to grow H.E. SPS , i got 12 W.D , 2 H.W frags and some expensive H.E. SPS.
My system is.
300 Gal. Acrylic Display Tank, 60 Gal. sump, 90 Gal. refuge , full of Pukani Rocks. I am 99 % Bio-Refer, i do NOT believe in Hydrogen Peroxide , Ozone etc. to me all may destroy all good Bacteria, the soul of immunity ( healthy) , there (net) are many , many way to use Carbon Source to increase and control Bacteria , i try , i build list 12 to 20 Bio-Pellets reactors, long story, most reactors on market , wont work well, or very well, most Bio-Pellets wont work well, i use to have a German Bio filter 25 years ago, i just try hard to fully understand , the ans. is this:
You may use all kind of Bio-Media, needs re circulation inside Reactor , slow water flow inside, possibility of add. some Bacteria , easy maintenance.
I try Chaetto , i grow like crazy, for some reason we become greedy, the better grow , the more you want, then , you lost the balance. Add all kind the stupid stuff , you wont need, make it side affect ( i refer to SPS in special) "BALANCE" is the key. I end up undetectable Nitrate , keep add may thinks, just to see some. Macro Algae are the most aggressive thinks to control Nitrate, not easy to see , or know , how much you have to prune, Nitrate go UP and Down easy. Same with Algae Scrubber . I am NOT specialist in Denitrification Sulfur Filter , i just try it, the great think is steady ( Nitrate) so you already have some control in your hands , then you have to deal with PO4, but is a way easy to "Balance" when you have control of Nitrate, for me 2.5 to 3 ppm Nitrate , Po4 0.02 to 0.05 ( i like Rowa) works very well, i go most , what i change in the tank ,what i add ( one at the time, list learn from mistakes) , you need to have a FULL control of Nitrate , then deal with PO4. Macro Algae go UP and Down according you remove. Before i explain the
the Sulfur Filter, i shut add. some. I run B.B. in my opinion Detritus is # 1 enemy of Reef, i run 7 pumps + return in my 300 Gal. display , i modification the over flow box, i make extra ( main) on one side, most of the water flow move on sides NOT front to back, so , a way more effective to remove , faster the Detritus, then in my 60 Gal. sump i add 2 small after Protein Skimmer, flow back to P.S. pump what ever she miss, make P.S. a way more effective, my ORP is 400 up, yes i got fresh air from outside ( 425 ppm CO2 , intend of 700 ppm CO2 inside the rom ( shop).
Sulfur Filter ( 2 Gal. Sulfur Media + 2 Gal. Calcium reactor media) use MJ 1200 pump ( i try bigger, but worm water inside reactor) take water from top , push at bottom, pass Sulfur , pass ( crash dead Coral or Calcium Reactor media) the media after Sulfur media help to recover some low Alk. more acid the tank, i suggest run IN and OUT thru refuge, give some time to balance. I use this for just 2 months , but i have FULL control of Nitrate and PO4 , NOT to mention all my corals got a way better color, grow. i got 12 W.D. frags, 2 H.W. and more H.E. SPS , so far .......Great.
I have pics. step by step , if you want it.