Baking soda?

[Budman's Corals]

Budman, I’m a little confused…..and believe me, that’s easy to do.


You stated above that you’re now dosing “cooked” baking soda to raise your alk….and got it up to 8.5 dKH….that’s a good thing.


But in the immediate above post you state that you dose kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide) through your top-off….and here’s the confusing part……also doseing calcium (calcium chloride), with a dosing pump????


Now I’m not a kalkwasser person, but typically these folks “top-off” using kalkwasser and balance alkalinity by dosing sodium carbonate (or sodium bicarbonate). I don’t know why you would be using kalkwasser and also dosing calcium chloride??? Was this a typo or am I reading this wrong?


Anyway, to your specific question….dosing two part with kalkwasser….there are those that balance this out with dosing and klakwasser. But for a DIY two part doser, cost wise, you can’t beat two part dosing.

Okay sorry might not be clear.

I have 1 pump right now that im using to dose calcium when needed,1.1ml per minute.
I also have a kalk stirrer where i add a cup of kalwasser every 2 weeks to the unit and it stirs during top off.

i made up a batch of baking soda and have been using my only pump as of now to dose Alk.My calcium level stays up and has been upfor the past 2 weeks(440)

I just want to know when I get my other pump and I will be able to dose Cal & Alk using seperate pumps will I still need to use Kalkwasser or can i get rid of the stirrer.

Hope that makes a little more sense.

 

[redfishbluefish]

In this hobby you can never say that something won’t work, because someone will always prove you wrong..


BUT, if it were me, I’d get rid of the kalkwasser stirrer and go solely with two part. In part I say that because I make my own two part for way less than ten dollars a year. If you need to buy a “branded’ two part, such as B-Ionic, your costs on a 120 gallon tank are more in the 100 dollar plus range for two part.

The other point that has always bothered me about kalkwasser in the ATO is that the volume of top-off varies.


And now that you’ll have two BRS pumps…..the choice is easy!


If you haven’t seen it, you might want to check out THIS recipe for making your own two part. I’ve been doing this since 2008.

 

[Budman's Corals]

In this hobby you can never say that something won’t work, because someone will always prove you wrong..


BUT, if it were me, I’d get rid of the kalkwasser stirrer and go solely with two part. In part I say that because I make my own two part for way less than ten dollars a year. If you need to buy a “branded’ two part, such as B-Ionic, your costs on a 120 gallon tank are more in the 100 dollar plus range for two part.

The other point that has always bothered me about kalkwasser in the ATO is that the volume of top-off varies.


And now that you’ll have two BRS pumps…..the choice is easy!


If you haven’t seen it, you might want to check out THIS recipe for making your own two part. I’ve been doing this since 2008.

Thanks for the info

The kalwasser has done great for the 2 years ive had it ,but only within the last 6 months ive gone with more SPS,

I thought BRS has pretty cheap soda ash/calcium but if its cheaper making it Im game and will start doing that

Once again I really appreciate the help,Now i can at least toss it out and not have to add every 2 weeks Kalk. anything to make this hobby easier and less maintenance Im for it

I do not have a controller yet so I guess i need to get a digital timer till I do get one..

 

[Daimyo68]

Arm and Hammer Baking Soda for too long to remember. Randy's Recipe 1 for the increase in pH (I maintain a pH of 8.2-8.4 using this recipe). Recently started making it in 5g batches so that I'm not bothered with making a gallon every 4 weeks

A 13lb bag can be had at Costco and Sams for about $6.50
Recipe 1 yields just under 10g
Recipe 2 yields just under 20g

When I first started using baking soda, I took the extra money (from not buying the brand named expensive stuff), and purchased a digital gram scale. I weigh out my Soda Ash, and then my water, and get a identical batch each time.

I also used to use "Prestone Driveway Heat" for my Calcium when I lived up North. Sadly, here in FL, nobody needs to melt ice off their driveway, so it's tougher to come by.
A 50lb bag of Calcium chloride would yield 45g (I would always split this with a friend because the pellets would clump together after a long time). 22g of Calcium is roughly 2 years worth of dosing for about $22

 

[redfishbluefish]

Daimyo, your post about volumes sparked my interest in what it actually costs me to dose. I too am a Prestone Driveway Heat user, with my Arm and Hammer baking soda coming from Sam’s Club. I’ve always used arm-waving math when telling people the cost to use DIY. Arm waving math is when you wave your arms and pull a number out of the sky. My arm waving math typically was about 5 to 10 dollars a year to dose my tank. So with your post I decided to pull out the calculator.


For the following math, I will use 1 pound = 454 grams.


CALCIUM PART

A 50 pound bag of Prestone Driveway Heat sells for $46.32. Randy’s recipe calls for 400 grams per gallon. SO

(50 lbs x 454 g/lb)/400 g/gal = 56.8 gallons

So one 50 pound bag yields 56.8 gallons and so the price per gallon would be:

$46.32/56.8 = $0.82 / gallon


ALKALINITY PART

Sam’s sells a 13.5 pound bag of Arm and Hammer for $5.65. Randy’s recipe calls for 594 grams per gallon. So:

(13.5 lbs x 454 g/lb) / 594 g/gal = 10.3 gallons

So a 13.5 pound bag makes 10.3 gallons at a price of:

$5.65 / 10.3 gallons - $0.55 / gallon



As you can see, using Randy’s homemade recipe will save you a couple bucks.


For you southern folks who don’t experience the wrath of winter, check with your local Lowes or Home Depot. I have ordered stuff off their websites and had it shipped to my local store with no shipping cost. If I had it shipped to my house I would have had to pay shipping. Check to see if you can do this with the ice melt products.

So to recap, 82 cents per gallon for calcium and 55 cents per gallon for alkalinity….not bad!


EDIT TO ADD

Out of curiosity I looked up the cost of one gallon jugs of B-Ionic at an online retailer and the cost was S13.99 per gallon of either calcium or alkalinity.

 

[Daimyo68]

Daimyo, your post about volumes sparked my interest in what it actually costs me to dose. I too am a Prestone Driveway Heat user, with my Arm and Hammer baking soda coming from Sam’s Club. I’ve always used arm-waving math when telling people the cost to use DIY. Arm waving math is when you wave your arms and pull a number out of the sky. My arm waving math typically was about 5 to 10 dollars a year to dose my tank. So with your post I decided to pull out the calculator.


For the following math, I will use 1 pound = 454 grams.


CALCIUM PART

A 50 pound bag of Prestone Driveway Heat sells for $46.32. Randy’s recipe calls for 400 grams per gallon. SO

(50 lbs x 454 g/lb)/400 g/gal = 56.8 gallons

So one 50 pound bag yields 56.8 gallons and so the price per gallon would be:

$46.32/56.8 = $0.82 / gallon


ALKALINITY PART

Sam’s sells a 13.5 pound bag of Arm and Hammer for $5.65. Randy’s recipe calls for 594 grams per gallon. So:

(13.5 lbs x 454 g/lb) / 594 g/gal = 10.3 gallons

So a 13.5 pound bag makes 10.3 gallons at a price of:

$5.65 / 10.3 gallons - $0.55 / gallon



As you can see, using Randy’s homemade recipe will save you a couple bucks.


For you southern folks who don’t experience the wrath of winter, check with your local Lowes or Home Depot. I have ordered stuff off their websites and had it shipped to my local store with no shipping cost. If I had it shipped to my house I would have had to pay shipping. Check to see if you can do this with the ice melt products.

So to recap, 82 cents per gallon for calcium and 55 cents per gallon for alkalinity….not bad!


EDIT TO ADD

Out of curiosity I looked up the cost of one gallon jugs of B-Ionic at an online retailer and the cost was S13.99 per gallon of either calcium or alkalinity.

I believe the price per gallon will vary though, depending on which recipe is used (by a few cents) Either way, its a huge savings over store/brand names.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are people who don't want to be bothered making the additives or not worried about the cost, but for those who do make their own, we reap the benefits of savings to spend on other items.

Brand Names here in Palm Beach County are expensive. If I were to use a well known brand I would spend $140 year just on Alk.

I think some people may also shy away from DIY for fear of not getting it right.

 

[Budman's Corals]

Shop 51-lb Calcium Chloride at Lowes.coman this be used

 

[cdness]

Daimyo, your post about volumes sparked my interest in what it actually costs me to dose. I too am a Prestone Driveway Heat user, with my Arm and Hammer baking soda coming from Sam’s Club. I’ve always used arm-waving math when telling people the cost to use DIY. Arm waving math is when you wave your arms and pull a number out of the sky. My arm waving math typically was about 5 to 10 dollars a year to dose my tank. So with your post I decided to pull out the calculator.


For the following math, I will use 1 pound = 454 grams.


CALCIUM PART

A 50 pound bag of Prestone Driveway Heat sells for $46.32. Randy’s recipe calls for 400 grams per gallon. SO

(50 lbs x 454 g/lb)/400 g/gal = 56.8 gallons

So one 50 pound bag yields 56.8 gallons and so the price per gallon would be:

$46.32/56.8 = $0.82 / gallon


ALKALINITY PART

Sam’s sells a 13.5 pound bag of Arm and Hammer for $5.65. Randy’s recipe calls for 594 grams per gallon. So:

(13.5 lbs x 454 g/lb) / 594 g/gal = 10.3 gallons

So a 13.5 pound bag makes 10.3 gallons at a price of:

$5.65 / 10.3 gallons - $0.55 / gallon



As you can see, using Randy’s homemade recipe will save you a couple bucks.


For you southern folks who don’t experience the wrath of winter, check with your local Lowes or Home Depot. I have ordered stuff off their websites and had it shipped to my local store with no shipping cost. If I had it shipped to my house I would have had to pay shipping. Check to see if you can do this with the ice melt products.

So to recap, 82 cents per gallon for calcium and 55 cents per gallon for alkalinity….not bad!


EDIT TO ADD

Out of curiosity I looked up the cost of one gallon jugs of B-Ionic at an online retailer and the cost was S13.99 per gallon of either calcium or alkalinity.

I love the good math there! You know typically 80% of all statistics are made up on the spot so it's good to see real numbers.

 

[bigkai]

This ended up being a great thread I'm happy to hear that so many other reefers are useing the DIY stuff and are having good results in their reef tank. Iv used brightwells chemicals for 4 years now and to think of how much money I have spent really makes me think of all the coral I could have spent that money on.

 

[mcarroll]

Ive got one pump for calcium but now that my SPS are growing out i think there using more alk and gotta start that.

Let me ask, Do i need to continue with the kalk stirrer thru the ATO while doing the 2 part dosing?

If you want to need more two-part, then take down the kalk reactor. But I wouldn't recommend it.

And there's no good reason to, really. With its multiplicity of benefits, kalk compliments any other dosing style very well. You can even add vinegar to your RO reservoir to boost your reactor's output and reduce or even eliminate the need for two-part. I just used this trick to keep my two-part usage down, so I ran my kalk reactor at maximum with a fairly small dose of vinegar.

Plus, it's even more hand's-off to run than dosers, so it costs as close to nothing to run as anything ever will.

So unless your stirrer has moving parts and breaks down or something, I can't suggest taking it out of service.

Daimyo, your post about volumes sparked my interest in what it actually costs me to dose.

Very interesting breakdown!

But the prices don't seem representative of anything I've seen locally....which always seems to be the case when I see folks online break down prices for something DIY in this hobby. (Nothing against you RedFish...I'm sure these prices are legit for you!) I've lived in three different parts of the country in three different kinds of retail markets and this has universally been true. Anyone else see this trend?

For example, the big bags of Arm & Hammer go for $8 around here, and there are no 50# bags of CaCl around here at all. One pound containers of Driveway Heat go for about $13. (I did find a 5-gal bucket of no-name CaCl for $20, but who's going to be expected to trust that?) I don't think most folks have any MgCl of known purity available either, but Mg isn't very expensive to supply even from commercial sources.

Although quite a bit more than RedFish's breaksdown, these prices are still a lot cheaper than any commercial preparation such as the Brightwell mentioned at the top of the thread. Although in the case of Calcium, I might argue that it's worth going to BRS or sticking with Brightwell at that price. You won't have any residues/precipitates to deal with or worry about with them at least.

FWIW, I do use DIY two-part chemicals myself, but I don't fool myself that I'm using the SAME chemicals as the commercial products.

Whether you're talking Brightwell or BRS, you are buying a higher grade of materials from them - and often a more complete formulation than what we do in DIY.

IN CASE IT HELPS
My typical recommendation (since you're already running kalk) is to use the kalk reactor to keep your two-part usage down. At the beginning while you are learning, stick with Brightwell (best instructions to learn with) for your two-part until your budget starts to complain.

Then to make your budget happy again either start with vinegar (see my link above), or switch alk over to baking soda. (Baking it to make soda ash is pretty pointless, IME. The reasons for doing so are overstated.) This should make the remaining money you're spending on commercial reagents drop back to a comfortable level. Switch your calcium to DIY if/when you see fit....may not have to though.

-Matt

 

[mcarroll]

I use baking soda all the time. I will be switching though to soda ash to help raise my ph some

Your tank's pH is dictated by CO2 levels in the air around the tank much more-so than anything you can do.

Baking a small (tiny) quantity of CO2 out of your baking soda into the kitchen air, then walking 20 feet to the tank room to "soak up" some CO2 out of the water isn't a winning proposition....you had to run the oven (creating more CO2) to get that done, so you may even create a net-addition to the CO2 in your house (unless you have an electric oven...then the CO2 is released at the power plant).

The only cheap and easy way out is to exchange some inside air (loaded with CO2) with some fresh, outside air (with normal levels of CO2).

You might try just running a fan in the room with the tank to circulate the air better and see if you get any better results. You may well have to do something to bring in outside air though.

IT'S ALSO WORTH STATING THAT UNLESS YOU ARE HAVING A REAL PROBLEM, IT'S RARELY WISE TO TRY TO CONTROL YOUR pH. (E.g. Mine has been <8 from the beginning and it has really caused no perceptible issues.) If things seem good, but you noticed a low pH when you tested....I'd do nothing at all.

-Matt

 

[Daimyo68]

Shop 51-lb Calcium Chloride at Lowes.coman this be used

You would need to look a the MSDS before using it (or any product for that matter) in a DIY solution.

FWIW, I do use DIY two-part chemicals myself, but I don't fool myself that I'm using the SAME chemicals as the commercial products.

Whether you're talking Brightwell or BRS, you are buying a higher grade of materials from them - and often a more complete formulation than what we do in DIY.
-Matt

I'm going to differ on this a little bit, in the Sodium Carbonate side. A couple years ago, I was talking with my ex, who is a Pharmacist. And we got on the subject of Alkalinity and she was telling me that the drug industry was complaining of shortages of Sodium Carbonate, the very same purity that we use when using Arm and Hammer Baking Soda.

I agree with you though on the formulation process of Brand name additives. Many Brand Name products do show on the labels, the list of ingredients, which can include 20+ elements.
This is a list off the label of of a Brand Name Calcium product: Calcium, Chloride, Magnesium, Strontium, Bromide, Ag, Al, B, Be, Bi, Cd, Ce, Co, Cr, Cu, Fe, Ge, K, La, Mg, Mn, Mo, Na, Nb, Ni, P, Pb, S, Si, Sn, Te, Th, Ti, U, V, W, Y, Z, Zn, Zr

Also, Notice that "Calcium, Magnesium, Strontium and Bromide" are all spelled out fully. I would assume that is because they are naturally a part of the end product when creating Calcium Chloride (depending on the process).
My question about all the "extra" elements would be, are they just by-products in trace amounts that are naturally in the Calcium, or are some, if not all, added afterwards to create a better/better looking product?

IT'S ALSO WORTH STATING THAT UNLESS YOU ARE HAVING A REAL PROBLEM, IT'S RARELY WISE TO TRY TO CONTROL YOUR pH. (E.g. Mine has been <8 from the beginning and it has really caused no perceptible issues.) If things seem good, but you noticed a low pH when you tested....I'd do nothing at all.

-Matt

+100 I all too often see people start chasing pH after getting a reef controller with a pH probe, and in many cases, imo, they end up pulling their hair out chasing it.

+1 to everyone replying here, this is a great thread!

 

[aslmx]

Everybody is stating DIY but didn't I read somewhere that the brs stuff is actually Randy's recipe in fancy jugs.

 

[Daimyo68]

Everybody is stating DIY but didn't I read somewhere that the brs stuff is actually Randy's recipe in fancy jugs.

Yes, they use the same guidelines as Randy's recipies. BUT, the only difference I see in their Calcium Chloride and Sodium Bicarbonate/Carbonate, is their description with their Calcium:
Bromide, Ammonia and Phosphate Free

There are a couple different ways to make/extract Calcium Chloride, and some of the products used to do so, can be left over, or added/created during the process. Bromide and Ammonia are a couple of those things. I am assuming that BRS gets a CaCl2 that is free of these elements due to the process in creating the CaCl2.

Ammonia, from what I have seen on MSDS sheets, is almost never present anymore, but Bromide is, at less than 1%. It was stated years ago (and created fear) "While it's not an immediate issue, if you do not perform regular water changes, Bromide can rise to unacceptable level in the aquarium". But, there have been lengthy threads on this subject for years now, and even today, it will still be argued.

So with that note, unless an MSDS does not show Bromide in their list of Ingredients/Composition, then BRS does have a better product (although you can get CaCl2 that is Bromide Free).

 

[trido]

A lot of valuable information here. It's been years since I've seen anyone mention Randy's two part recipe. It seems most reefers don't even know about it anymore and spend a fortune at the LFS on brand name products.

 

[mcarroll]

It actually comes up pretty regularly.

Anyone else think it was a little ostentatious for it to be called Randy's Recipe anyway?

Seems like mother nature's recipe that I seem to remember Craig Bingman and others discussing before-Web. I guess because nobody took the time to give it a name (hello all you coral-namers!) it was bound to happen.

Sadly most of the pre-web discussions are gone, as well with most of those authors' post-web articles. A search for "Craig Bingman" will still turn up some links to articles that survive only in an online backup site. Good reads.

-Matt

P.S. You are missing out if you are keeping stony coral but have not yet read everything R.H.F. has written on alkalinity.

 

[aslmx]

I'm still dosing by hand. I have a Dosing pump but I got to where I didn't trust it with lines clogging ,pumps failing and so on. Does anybody else still dose manually.

 

[Lokii_37]

I still dose manually about 75ml of Alk and cal daily.

I dose baking soda in water. When i was using the soda ash i was getting a lot of precipitation as soon as I added it to water. I was having a heck of a time keeping my Alk up. After I switched to soda my Alk came up. I think this may also be why my sand turned to rock.

As for calcium I dose CaCl from a 50lb bag of Dow flake from my local chemical company. They do not carry MgCl so I use Epsom salts until I place a BRS order.