Delicate / Difficult Wrasse

[griff500]

I have seen the latter though. Maybe the OP hasn't been observant as stated. I strongly believe it is. It can't be bullying, since it would go hiding to recover the sustained damage. It can't be shipping stress/ damage since it would just be the same as the first one. The only one I can think of is either we aren't getting clear or true info from the OP, or it's internal worms.

So I was not observant and/or I’m hiding something.

You now strongly believe what you previously stated as fact.

Is it still the case that my Femininus would probably be alive if I had done research that you apparently somehow know I did not do?

Sigh.

 

[griff500]

I have had African cichlids in the past. I learned one thing with them. The most stressed of them was the dominate male! Often get stress related diseases first of all.

Sorry if I missed it but have you mention when it died - did you find it dead in the morning or in the evening?

Tips how to manage these more sensitive species - I do not know but I have for the moment 6 wrasses of 3 different species. There is some other that I would like to have but I am not sure that it will be good idea - even if I would not see any bulling - it is hard for another fish of the same type to establish itself. If it was the only wrasse - I would try

Sincerely Lasse

One day it simply did not come out in the morning. I found it the next day. Perhaps trying to dominate the Potters Wrasse was sufficient stress to tip it over the edge.

The Yellow and Black Tamarins hang out together and there was no aggression with them. The Red also was happy doing it’s own thing and no aggression to or from.

 

[Lasse]

I have noted one thing over the years - when I lose fish they normally just not show up in the morning. I have a lot of CUC and I normally do not see them again. I have lose fish that have looked OK the day before - both new and old - this way

Sincerely Lasse

 

[griff500]

I have noted one thing over the years - when I lose fish they normally just not show up in the morning. I have a lot of CUC and I normally do not see them again. I have lose fish that have looked OK the day before - both new and old - this way

Sincerely Lasse

I had a Lineatus that was around 14cm that injured itself, hid under a rock and the next day there was nothing whatsoever to be seen.

Things that should work often do not work and then things you shouldn't do work out fine... My Achilles and Powder Blue Tangs seem to be getting on fine, despite nearly everyone saying that it shouldn't be tried (that could change in a moment of course).

My Yellow Tail and Black Tail Tamarin Wrasse are usually going around the tank together and the Red Tail joined them for the few days he lasted (and he was foraging for food and eating the Mysis that was offered and the Mastick).

 

[Earl Karl]

So I was not observant and/or I’m hiding something.

You now strongly believe what you previously stated as fact.

Is it still the case that my Femininus would probably be alive if I had done research that you apparently somehow know I did not do?

Sigh.

Dude learn your adverbs, you're like 0/3 of seeing them. I said MAYBE. MAYBE there was something missing you did not catch.

I had a Lineatus that was around 14cm that injured itself, hid under a rock and the next day there was nothing whatsoever to be seen.

Things that should work often do not work and then things you shouldn't do work out fine... My Achilles and Powder Blue Tangs seem to be getting on fine, despite nearly everyone saying that it shouldn't be tried (that could change in a moment of course).

My Yellow Tail and Black Tail Tamarin Wrasse are usually going around the tank together and the Red Tail joined them for the few days he lasted (and he was foraging for food and eating the Mysis that was offered and the Mastick).

I had a Femininus that lasted ten days and then suddenly died. It was fat, strong colour, had been eating absolutely everything it could get hold of (even joining in with the algae grazer rings, etc), had been out later and later each day until it was in sync with the light schedule, not being bullied by anything, out all day looking for food... absolutely everything going great. Then dead on the 11th day.

I am aware that they are tricky fish and I have read all the experiences people have had with them online but my question is why. What exactly is it that makes them so difficult?

Assuming that they would probably dart for the sand when people are trying to catch them in the wild, how exactly are these fish caught? I wonder if they are actually damaged internally to varying degrees before they even get shipped here?

I want to try again with this fish but I do worry that I'm just supporting something I shouldn't. I've also had a Red Tail Tamarin appear ok, eating voraciously for three days and then just roll over in front of my eyes.

So, what exactly is it that makes the fish so tricky, or are they actually not any more tricky than any other fish but there's something about how they are caught and/or transported that lessens the chances of success?

One day it simply did not come out in the morning. I found it the next day. Perhaps trying to dominate the Potters Wrasse was sufficient stress to tip it over the edge.

The Yellow and Black Tamarins hang out together and there was no aggression with them. The Red also was happy doing it’s own thing and no aggression to or from.

Read the first paragraph of your threads you posted. First you said it was all out and happy, doing great, then it SUDDENLY died the next day. Now you're saying it hid in the morning and then you found it the day AFTER that. Did it come out in the afternoon? Or did it hide all day? Maybe "hiding something" wasn't the right word choice, but this is what I mean. Info you simply did not tell. Now the fact that it DID hide in the sand at an unusual time, that changes things like injury.

Yes, the fact you don't deworm your anampses as you stated earlier. There should be no other reason why your wrasse should just drop dead without trying to recover. Even it bullying with the potter's, they're not that delicate to die from bullying other fish. I have NEVER heard a fish that died from bullying the other fish. But now since you released new info that was different than what you stated, it now changes things.

I knew there was something that would probably be missing. That's why I said PROBABLY, it would still be alive.

 

[Gareth elliott]

had the lights recently switched on before you found it?
if so...
What is your lighting schedule, do you have any ramping period even if short?

ime when lights first come on is when you get the most frantic swimming, especially in wrasses. Quick dart into the glass can be the end of even a healthy wrasse.

I like to qt my wrasses with a very indirect light on the same schedule as my reef tank. Even if not treating with any meds gets they used to when to be awake and when to be asleep without any other fish to startle them.
^ all just guessing without a necropsy of course.

 

[griff500]

Dude learn your adverbs, you're like 0/3 of seeing them. I said MAYBE. MAYBE there was something missing you did not catch.

Read the first paragraph of your threads you posted. First you said it was all out and happy, doing great, then it SUDDENLY died the next day. Now you're saying it hid in the morning and then you found it the day AFTER that. Did it come out in the afternoon? Or did it hide all day? Maybe "hiding something" wasn't the right word choice, but this is what I mean. Info you simply did not tell. Now the fact that it DID hide in the sand at an unusual time, that changes things like injury.

Yes, the fact you don't deworm your anampses as you stated earlier. There should be no other reason why your wrasse should just drop dead without trying to recover. Even it bullying with the potter's, they're not that delicate to die from bullying other fish. I have NEVER heard a fish that died from bullying the other fish. But now since you released new info that was different than what you stated, it now changes things.

I knew there was something that would probably be missing. That's why I said PROBABLY, it would still be alive.

Good grief, this is hard work...

I stated that it didn't come out one day and I found it the next day. My original opening post stated that it 'suddenly died'. There was no observed period of being ill - it was out and about and then it wasn't. To me, that's sudden. That's a clear statement of the facts and there is no assumption about exactly when it had died because I cannot know that and I do not state things as fact when I cannot possibly know with certainty.

You've stated that it DID hide in the sand but you do not know that with certainty... it could have been dead already rather than hiding and I simply had not seen it under the rock at the back of the tank.

I was working form home and sitting next to the tank all day for both of those days (and for most days that week). I was being extremely observant. Your assumptions about this are incorrect.

You are saying that this 'new' information changes things yet the 'new' information is that the Femininus didn't like the Potters and you then say that you've never heard of the bully dying from stress, therefore it really doesn't change things...

You don't seem to understand that saying the Femininus would probably be alive if I had just done some research is condescending and implies that the only thing needed to have a high probability of success with Femininus is a bit of research, aside from implying that I had not done any research.

These fish have a reputation for being tricky. I was trying to find out what reasons there could be for this. All you have come up with is that maybe I wasn't being observant, it was definitely worms and the fish would, in all probability, have lived if I had only done some research... All stuff that is pretty much aimed at me personally about a fish that is renowned as being tricky for a huge number of people (except you because you haven't tried to keep one).

 

[griff500]

had the lights recently switched on before you found it?
if so...
What is your lighting schedule, do you have any ramping period even if short?

ime when lights first come on is when you get the most frantic swimming, especially in wrasses. Quick dart into the glass can be the end of even a healthy wrasse.

I like to qt my wrasses with a very indirect light on the same schedule as my reef tank. Even if not treating with any meds gets they used to when to be awake and when to be asleep without any other fish to startle them.
^ all just guessing without a necropsy of course.

My lights have a gradual ramp up and down. The Femininus was initially going to bed quite early and stayed up later and later each day, gradually adjusting to the light schedule. That was another factor that made me thing after ten days that she was going to make it.

Thanks for the response though - this thread is starting to make me lose the will to live... maybe I know how the Femininus felt.

 

[Earl Karl]

Good grief, this is hard work...

I stated that it didn't come out one day and I found it the next day. My original opening post stated that it 'suddenly died'. There was no observed period of being ill - it was out and about and then it wasn't. To me, that's sudden. That's a clear statement of the facts and there is no assumption about exactly when it had died because I cannot know that and I do not state things as fact when I cannot possibly know with certainty.

You've stated that it DID hide in the sand but you do not know that with certainty... it could have been dead already rather than hiding and I simply had not seen it under the rock at the back of the tank.

I was working form home and sitting next to the tank all day for both of those days (and for most days that week). I was being extremely observant. Your assumptions about this are incorrect.

You are saying that this 'new' information changes things yet the 'new' information is that the Femininus didn't like the Potters and you then say that you've never heard of the bully dying from stress, therefore it really doesn't change things...

You don't seem to understand that saying the Femininus would probably be alive if I had just done some research is condescending and implies that the only thing needed to have a high probability of success with Femininus is a bit of research, aside from implying that I had not done any research.

These fish have a reputation for being tricky. I was trying to find out what reasons there could be for this. All you have come up with is that maybe I wasn't being observant, it was definitely worms and the fish would, in all probability, have lived if I had only done some research... All stuff that is pretty much aimed at me personally about a fish that is renowned as being tricky for a huge number of people (except you because you haven't tried to keep one).

But you didn't state that it hid unusually the first time, you said it was doing great then next day dead. NOW you said that it hid. I'm pretty sure if it was dead, you would be able to see it as the flow would kick it around. So it must have hid wherever, doesn't matter where, it hid. Wrasses don't unusually hide unless they are recovering from stress or injury.

Never said anything certain about your observing, that's why I said maybe.

Never said I never heard bully dying from stress, I'm saying specifically bullying other fish, never seen a fish die from bullying other fish.

Knowledge (aka research) always raises probability. What part of "probably" do you not understand? I said like 100s of times that it would probably be still alive. Instead you took it WAY too personal.

Only here they're tricky. As I have said, people in Australia don't have a problem keeping them. Does working at a wholesaler count as keeping one? When I worked there, we did have a DT with a femininus and lennardi, which I maintained for a long time. Does that count enough for you? Just because I never owned one, doesn't mean I'm completely ignorant of them, I have kept anampses before.

Your assumptions of me not not trying to keep a femininus is just as hypocritical.

 

[Earl Karl]

My lights have a gradual ramp up and down. The Femininus was initially going to bed quite early and stayed up later and later each day, gradually adjusting to the light schedule. That was another factor that made me thing after ten days that she was going to make it.

Thanks for the response though - this thread is starting to make me lose the will to live... maybe I know how the Femininus felt.

Now you're being silly. You lost your will to live from an argument? Fine, I will end things here. Just don't do anything rash.

 

[griff500]

Now you're being silly. You lost your will to live from an argument? Fine, I will end things here. Just don't do anything rash.

Trying to be clever...

But you didn't state that it hid unusually the first time, you said it was doing great then next day dead. NOW you said that it hid. I'm pretty sure if it was dead, you would be able to see it as the flow would kick it around. So it must have hid wherever, doesn't matter where, it hid. Wrasses don't unually hide unless they are recovering from stress or injury.

Never said anything certain about your observing, that's why I said maybe.

Never said I never heard bully dying from stress, I'm saying specifically bullying other fish, never seen a fish die from bullying other fish.

Knowledge (aka research) always raises probability. What part of "probably" do you not understand? I said like 100s of times that it would probably be still alive. Instead you took it WAY too personal.

Only here they're tricky. As I have said, people in Australia don't have a problem keeping them. Does working at a wholesaler count as keeping one? When I worked there, we did have a DT with a femininus and lennardi, which I maintained for a long time. Does that count enough for you? Just because I never owned one, doesn't mean I'm completely ignorant of them, I have kept anampses before.

Your assumptions of me not not trying to keep a femininus is just as hypocritical.

Seriously?

I can't be bothered to repeat the same things again and correct what you have said. I'm bored with this, so hopefully you'll keep to what you said and end things here.

 

[Earl Karl]

Trying to be clever...


Seriously?

I can't be bothered to repeat the same things again and correct what you have said. I'm bored with this, so hopefully you'll keep to what you said and end things here.

I have done the same as well for you. And technically, I kept a Femininus longer than you have. Your arrogance of "you've never tried keeping a femininus, let alone an anampses" was one of the things that got this argument nowhere. I'm not saying you're 100% in the wrong, but you were sort of a hypocrite.

Let me answer your original question for the final time. They just get stressed out easier than other fish, but nothing different from other wrasses.

 

[griff500]

I have done the same as well for you. And technically, I kept a Femininus longer than you have. Your arrogance of "you've never tried keeping a femininus, let alone an anampses" was one of the things that got this argument nowhere. I'm not saying you're 100% in the wrong, but you were sort of a hypocrite.

Let me answer your original question for the final time. They just get stressed out easier than other fish, but nothing different from other wrasses.

You haven't kept a Femininus - you worked at a wholesaler! Then you quote me as having said "you've never tried keeping a femininus, let alone an anampses" and I have not written those words, yet you put them in quotation marks and attribute them to me.

You stated above that Femininus are no different to other Wrasse. I am not able to agree with that based on my limited experience with Wrasse (Femininus, Pintail, Diamond Tail, Dusky, Twistii, Yellow Tail Tamarin, Black Tail Tamarin, Red Tail Tamarin, Potters, Six Line and perhaps a few I have forgotten, but a relatively small number). I don't really recall many people posting how they just cannot keep a Six-Line alive compared to the difficulty with Anampses of various types.

What got this started on a road to nowhere was this:

If you didn't QT and didn't feed medicated foods, it was definitely the intestinal parasites that finished it off. Wrasses usually run rampant with them.

Not to be rude, but just a bit more research and it would probably be still alive.

Made worse by daft comments such as:

If you want to improve the chances of keeping Anampses, live in Australia.

Really helpful...

The bottom line is that nearly all of the fish we keep are imported. Some from the same regions have far higher success rates than others. I am simply trying to establish if there are any reasons within our control that have a significant impact on the outcome or if it really is just down to luck with these fish, beyond the usual things that might give them the best possible chance.

I'm left with the thought that the shipping is more stressful for the sand-dwellers and thus they are in worse shape when they arrive, even if they don't look like they are in bad shape, and that's perhaps the primary reason for them having such a low survival rate in our tanks. That's based on no real knowledge of any changes that might have happened with shipping them, as I am sure I read something about this somewhere recently, or whether some other very tricky Wrasse are not sand-dwellers but have equally low success rates.

This is what I was hoping to discuss but the thread has been taken way off course.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Earl Karl]

It got nowhere because you took offense to that comment. Also, you caused confusion when you changed what actually happened to the wrasse such as "it hid for a day then it died the next day"

Am I wrong about living in Australia, right next to where Anampses lives, it would significantly raise your chance? Otherwise, we would have to deal with the reality that these guys don't ship well.

What I meant by wrasses is other sand dwelling wrasses, even Halichoeres. It's a fairly hardy fish as long it doesn't get damaged. If you can pick up a healthy one, they're not that hard to keep. Maybe as difficult as a Psuedojuloides or a Macropharyngodon once established, which isn't hard at all. Just keep the stress down, same as you would do with any fish. Ofc there are things that are out of control.

All stuff that is pretty much aimed at me personally about a fish that is renowned as being tricky for a huge number of people (except you because you haven't tried to keep one).

What is this then? What is so much different than maintaining a DT at work and at home? You're not around the tank 24/7 and I did everything to take care of that tank while I was there. I may have gone to far with "let alone an anampses", but the proof is right here.

Maybe we shouldn't be keeping them if this is the case. Wouldn't that be common sense? Why should we kill more animals for our enjoyment? I'm not into the whole "they should just be left in the ocean", but you are always at fault when you are fully aware you are taking a risk with these kind of animals, including everyone and me. You shouldn't be offended when someone points out what you didn't do right, especially when it's a "probably".

I don't think I have any more to say, or any other reason to continue even though I said I'll end things now before. You got your answer, but please be aware that your feelings don't mitigate reality.

 

[evolved]