Devils advocating

[Wildreefs]

Why do you think CI killed your fish - as compared to ammonia (which can be a problem even in 60 hours) especially in the presence of copper - or the copper itself. If the LFS copper level was really '2.7' - why did they do that? Also did you check your copper levels twice daily to document they remained stable? Not trying to disagree with you - just clarify and hopefully get an answer.

It was di, because weeks after in display tank, there are fish coated in granules, specs if you will.

They all basically went the ttm, (new sterile tank every 60 hours or less) and copper. All equipment heavily disenfected and dried before use.

The damage is done, if it doesn’t start clearing up, I will be using copper in display tank. Not but 3 months ago I removed all fish, bleached tank, and restarted.

Should that need to happen again the tank will be curbside

 

[MnFish1]

Well then the crowd that uses ttm, which is 72 hours in one tank, should certainly be worried.

As to why the lfs has copper that high...I’m assuming he himself doesn’t test water like I did for him , added in recommended amount, guesses as to how many replacement gallons he needs from sales, and resides, and overtime it got higher and higher.

I realize that ammonia 'may' not be a problem - but it also depends on the number of fish and the size of the tank (which is why I asked). This from the article on TTM: Ammonia isn’t much of a concern with TTM, because every 3 days the fish is placed in a new tank with new water; or you always have the option of using ammonia reducers, such as Amquel or Prime, in conjunction with TTM since there is no risk of negative interaction because no medications are present.

Could it also be that your testing is wrong? I can't see an LFS using copper 'never' testing their levels - and allowing them to get to toxic levels. When you were doing your TTM - did you check your copper levels twice daily as recommended? BTW - another thought -With TTM there will also be bacteria that lower ammonia (heterotrophs) in the water - in copper treated water these are inhibited - which may have lead to a higher than usual ammonia level.

 

[MnFish1]

It was di, because weeks after in display tank, there are fish coated in granules, specs if you will.

They all basically went the ttm, (new sterile tank every 60 hours or less) and copper. All equipment heavily disenfected and dried before use.

The damage is done, if it doesn’t start clearing up, I will be using copper in display tank. Not but 3 months ago I removed all fish, bleached tank, and restarted.

Should that need to happen again the tank will be curbside

OK that makes it more clear - at first I thought the fish died shortly after the QT period (like almost immediately after you put them in the tank). Can you give the time frame that the fish died? I guess I agree with @drstardust s assessment that either there was cross contamination, there was a problem with the QT process (and I would bet your copper levels were incorrect - again - did you check them frequently or only one time - there was no filter or flow in your QT tank?)

One more question. What was the reason your LFS (who was using copper) told you that your QT process wouldn't work?

 

[4FordFamily]

Your LFS doesn’t believe in copper/quarantine but they have lethal levels of copper in their entire system?

 

[Wildreefs]

Well, based on the information currently available, here are the possibilities I see.

1. A tomont was scraped up and transferred to the DT.
2. Ich is not what you were dealing with. Flukes can look similar to ich, and even if treated for with prazi, they can be resistant, unfortunately.
3. At some point during the process cross contamination occurred.

And, less likely:
4. A copper resistant strain of ich has developed and you had the misfortune of encountering it.

1. A tomont is the encysted version correct? How would they have gotten there, knowing the fish went from lfs bag of water, straight to high copper, and transferred to new sterile tank every 60 hours or less? Wouldn’t have been an opportunity to create one, let alone, hitch a ride 5 times between tank transfers before display.

2. That’s possible, but it does look like the prototypical sugar grains across body.

3. After tank 1 was used, about 10 gallons of water it was drained and rinsed to remove organic. Once empty, filled with tap and poured in 4 cups of bleach (all my lungs were going to handle) sat over night, drained, rinsed, dried completely for at least a day and a half before refilling with saltwater.

4. I suppose, but when you hear someone using copper on some 350 fish, with no ich after, hard to believe my 6 had some resistant strain.

I’m not saying it can’t be cured. I just don’t believe the time frames thought to be are the end all be all.

Just like formalin, I picked a product that up until 2 weeks ago was considered effective. On the list of 37 percent formalin products , I picked quick cure. Used it on everyone, clowns and chromis, tang and wrasses. Between every transfer, 45 minute aerated dip. .8 ml per gallon.

Low and behold chromis develope lesions. Spoke to humble, upon further research, the formalin count is on 18.5 percent, not 37.

Already used it several times in them and everyone but chromis went into tank.


Am I supposed to catch them, restart tank, to get proper formalin? Two weeks ago, the community consensus was the product wasn’t up to par, it wasn’t.
Just a lot of misinformation out there, not the message board fault, More so the science behind it for ornamental fish, and the medication companies changing there formula (mardel for example)

My family showed me a book written in 60s about aquarium disease. Fish were infected in one study with ich, and placed in copper sulfate for 6 months. No new additions of fish thru out.

Once copper was removed , ich returned , again no livestock introduced during the 6 months.

I kinda saw this first hand years ago . I had a 180 Fowler tank with minimal rock work. Had about 15 fish in it, man ich magnets, hepatus tang, Achilles, powder blur etc. after all fish were in, no qt, ich surfaced on pbt and Achilles. Dosed copper, and ran it straight for 4 months. No ich signs at all after 1 week usage.

I then stopped treating water change water with copper, and as the levels lowered from removing copper water and replacing wit freshwater, after about 8 or 9 water changes, the ich was seen again. Figured 120 days was plenty to kill any ones that hatched.

I then decided to run copper all the time being it was a Fowlr, never saw it again.

 

[drstardust]

1. If ich were on the fish (trophont) when you got it, dropped off to form a tomont once in your tank (encysted stage, not affected by copper), and the tomont was transferred to the next tank by getting scraped up with a net, etc. This does seem unlikely, but possible.

2. Fair enough. Not much more to say.

3. Yeah, sounds like your sterilization was adequate, but sometimes even not drying your hands completely between tanks can transfer parasites, i.e, cross contamination. Let alone not being careful with using separate nets, siphons, buckets, etc. This can sometimes happen despite adequate diligence.

The examples you give of ich being suppressed by copper for months and months and coming back when copper is removed is classic for subtherapeutic copper levels. It can keep the disease at bay, but will not kill all of the ich if not at a sufficient level, hence the disease coming back when it is removed. In a FOWLR with rocks/sand, copper levels can fluctuate wildly (just ask @4FordFamily). The Hanna checker also did not exist in the 60s and who knows what levels were being used.

The science is what it is. We can only go by what we know. Based on hobbyist lore, I do think there is more to this parasite than meets they eye. So I'll meet you in the middle there. It would be no surprise to me if it behaves differently in a marine reef tank than in a laboratory setting. But we really can only go by what is proven.

Regarding uronema, did you feed the fish with metro-laced food? This disease can spread internally, and sometimes treating the water is not enough. And sometimes nothing is ever enough. This is one nasty bugger. It has made me swear off chromis.

 

[sde1500]

Well, based on the information currently available, here are the possibilities I see.

1. A tomont was scraped up and transferred to the DT.
2. Ich is not what you were dealing with. Flukes can look similar to ich, and even if treated for with prazi, they can be resistant, unfortunately.
3. At some point during the process cross contamination occurred.

And, less likely:
4. A copper resistant strain of ich has developed and you had the misfortune of encountering it.

Might I suggest a 5) The copper test was not done properly?
This level of copper in an LFS system, I find it unlikely.

Fish came from at lfs, which was 2.7 (very high) I made mine 2.25

I’m assuming he himself doesn’t test water like I did for him , added in recommended amount, guesses as to how many replacement gallons he needs from sales, and resides, and overtime it got higher and higher.

 

[ReefHog]

You are exactly correct with the possibility of getting an encysted tomont with a net when removing the fish.

I use two buckets when I move fish from copper to a sterile tank. The first bucket is dosed with copper. So fish are netted from copper QT to copper bucket. Then I transfer them to a clean bucket with newly mixed water by hand. Then finally use a clean net to move them from the clean bucket to the sterile tank.

That's a great idea and something I will employ. I prefer not to have fish in medication any longer than absolutely necessary.

 

[Wildreefs]

OK that makes it more clear - at first I thought the fish died shortly after the QT period (like almost immediately after you put them in the tank). Can you give the time frame that the fish died? I guess I agree with @drstardust s assessment that either there was cross contamination, there was a problem with the QT process (and I would bet your copper levels were incorrect - again - did you check them frequently or only one time - there was no filter or flow in your QT tank?)

One more question. What was the reason your LFS (who was using copper) told you that your QT process wouldn't work?

Tested new water which they would go in for 60 hours or less. Only thing in tank was eheim glass heater, air hose, no stone, and small power head with two pvc elbows.

Fish aren’t dead yet, just show the symptoms . Would say about 2-3 weeks after going into display.

Reason he gave for qt not working is a culmination of things. In no particular order:

At some point you will add snails, hermits and corals, and unless you have desperate Acro tank (which I will never, unless I hit lottery) for corals to sit in for 76 days, they will enter.

Very difficult to have a quarantine tank for larger fish, or something that will pollute the water quickly, of a fish that will stress out in lesser tank (various tangs, clown tang, Achilles, cryptic angels etc)

Some fish can not be treated. Leopard wrasses he states almost always perish in copper. Ttm is an option, but they are stress factories for a fish that doesn’t beat minimally touched.(others such as eels, lions , puffers etc shouldn’t be either ) ive tried 4 different mandarins that were feeding , and after low copper stopped.

And I’ll add the 4th reason, even after following the timelines for hatching, somehow they are still getting in. I double insured myself with ttm and copper. That didn’t work. I used an acceptable formalin product , one recommended for years, to find out that as of two weeks ago, the formalin concentration is useless.

 

[Wildreefs]

Your LFS doesn’t believe in copper/quarantine but they have lethal levels of copper in their entire system?

Lethal? 2.5 is considere the dosage in the instructions. He’s running 2.7, and has had some of the fish since October / November, a few odd fish even longer.

Doesn’t believe in qt but of course has to run copper in a big fish system

 

[4FordFamily]

Lethal? 2.5 is considere the dosage in the instructions. He’s running 2.7, and has had some of the fish since October / November, a few odd fish even longer.

Doesn’t believe in qt but of course has to run copper in a big fish system

2.5 is a high dose, imo above it is lethal to some fish. 1.75 is ideal. 3.0+ is definitively lethal

 

[Wildreefs]

Might I suggest a 5) The copper test was not done properly?
This level of copper in an LFS system, I find it unlikely.

Just being constructive here, but I have run the test a dozen or so times in buckets of saltwater, mixed up per hotricksndosage guide just to confirm the numbers in paper match up with the test. Have yet to find any discrepancies. For example, if I mix up 5 gallons and out enough in there on paper to get it to 1.5, the test showed 1.48-1.53 .

Ran this test twice on lfs holding tank, and that is what I got . Instantly turned the reagent a dark color, before hitting the test chamber for Hannah.

As for you finding it unlikely to be that high... have you owned an lfs or any type of facility where fish are constantly being sold?

When they have to top off the water sold, vs evaporations, any given day they can evaporate 3-4 gallons, and sell 20-30 gallons based on how many bags of fish sold.

Without measuring, they could very easily replace 30 gallons worth of copper, when it only really needed 20 gallons worth. Do this 6 days week, and I think it’s fair to say the level can rise or sink fast.

 

[Wildreefs]

1. If ich were on the fish (trophont) when you got it, dropped off to form a tomont once in your tank (encysted stage, not affected by copper), and the tomont was transferred to the next tank by getting scraped up with a net, etc. This does seem unlikely, but possible.

2. Fair enough. Not much more to say.

3. Yeah, sounds like your sterilization was adequate, but sometimes even not drying your hands completely between tanks can transfer parasites, i.e, cross contamination. Let alone not being careful with using separate nets, siphons, buckets, etc. This can sometimes happen despite adequate diligence.

The examples you give of ich being suppressed by copper for months and months and coming back when copper is removed is classic for subtherapeutic copper levels. It can keep the disease at bay, but will not kill all of the ich if not at a sufficient level, hence the disease coming back when it is removed. In a FOWLR with rocks/sand, copper levels can fluctuate wildly (just ask @4FordFamily). The Hanna checker also did not exist in the 60s and who knows what levels were being used.

The science is what it is. We can only go by what we know. Based on hobbyist lore, I do think there is more to this parasite than meets they eye. So I'll meet you in the middle there. It would be no surprise to me if it behaves differently in a marine reef tank than in a laboratory setting. But we really can only go by what is proven.

Regarding uronema, did you feed the fish with metro-laced food? This disease can spread internally, and sometimes treating the water is not enough. And sometimes nothing is ever enough. This is one nasty bugger. It has made me swear off chromis.

Again, fish would have had to had ich on it, which is fair to say yes. However it would have had to swim down to the bottom to encycst, but the copper was in place long before the fish hit the tank.

I don’t own a single fish net, hate them for there potential to do gill damage. I use my hand, and I don’t disenfect my hand when transferring a fish.

Lastly, I feed all fish once a day, using two cubes frozen, along with one scoop focus and metro, few drops of garlic, once a week selcon too.

 

[Wildreefs]

2.5 is a high dose, imo above it is lethal to some fish. 1.75 is ideal. 3.0+ is definitively lethal

I understand that and have believed that too.
However , I know I did the test correctly twice with hannah, and both times came back 2.70.

In these systems are dwarf angels, clowns, blennies, eels, puffers, wrasses and tangs. Some are there a few days, others months.

Please don’t think I am being the elephant on the room , or a recalcitrant. I just think a lot of what is said is based in old wives tales..few examples.

Can’t ever put coral in a tank with rock that once had copper.

My buddies tank is a 180 aga reef tank, primarily sod, but also lps and anemones. At one point, the tank, was a fish only when he first had it, and ran high copper all the time. One day decided to do reef tank, and did massive water changes and ran carbon a few weeks and has had coral ever since. That was 4 years ago. Aside from the occasional bleached coral, keeps about 100 different pieces, some 4 years old. If you read the boards and asked around, he would have discarded all his rock.

Another is eels in copper. In this high coppper level, he has everything from golden dwarfs, to tessalatas. Seem fine in copper.

 

[drstardust]

So the fish are still alive and still showing symptoms of ich? Could you post pictures?

 

[drstardust]

I don’t know that you can write off differences in experience as some being old wives tales and others being correct. There probably is validity to most anecdotal reports, there’s just no way to know for sure if other factors weren’t involved to produce the results seen. For instance, maybe certain types of copper are more harmful to eels than others. Maybe some types of rock absorb and leech some types of copper more than other rocks with other copper. Maybe how many rocks in a given water volume is an important factor. Hard to know, and it’s very hard to conduct controlled experiments about these things. Anecdotes are all we have to go on, and many similarities in experience would suggest possibility beyond just random chance

 

[HotRocks]

Tested new water which they would go in for 60 hours or less. Only thing in tank was eheim glass heater, air hose, no stone, and small power head with two pvc elbows.

Fish aren’t dead yet, just show the symptoms . Would say about 2-3 weeks after going into display.

Reason he gave for qt not working is a culmination of things. In no particular order:

At some point you will add snails, hermits and corals, and unless you have desperate Acro tank (which I will never, unless I hit lottery) for corals to sit in for 76 days, they will enter.

Very difficult to have a quarantine tank for larger fish, or something that will pollute the water quickly, of a fish that will stress out in lesser tank (various tangs, clown tang, Achilles, cryptic angels etc)

Some fish can not be treated. Leopard wrasses he states almost always perish in copper. Ttm is an option, but they are stress factories for a fish that doesn’t beat minimally touched.(others such as eels, lions , puffers etc shouldn’t be either ) ive tried 4 different mandarins that were feeding , and after low copper stopped.

And I’ll add the 4th reason, even after following the timelines for hatching, somehow they are still getting in. I double insured myself with ttm and copper. That didn’t work. I used an acceptable formalin product , one recommended for years, to find out that as of two weeks ago, the formalin concentration is useless.

I agree with the part about adding snails or corals or any inverts. They have to be QTd as well to maintain a parasite free system. Everything has to be QTd or held fallow for it to work. QTing fish is pretty pointless if you are just going to toss anything else in the tank without proper QT IMO.

I disagree with leopards not tolerating copper. I have 8 in my tank that all went through copper. 6 of the species, about to be seven as I have one in observation that's already through copper. Now at the 2.7ppm level yes they would likely perish.

I said copper at 2.7ppm is near toxicity at this level. Some fish will tolerate a level that high or higher. Most wrasses will probably not. I just don't find it necessary, when the therapuetic minimum is 1.50ppm and if you use a Hanna checker you can easily regulate the level at or near 1.75ppm which is above the minimum and I've never had any ich/velvet make it through at the 1.75ppm concentration. I also don't really experience any lethargy or anything like that either.

I have a pair if 125g QTs which is not really economical for most people, but I'm helping @4FordFamily stock a large in wall system.

Honestly almost any fish can be QTd in a 40b or at worst a 55. If you have a system large enough for an achilles tang or a large angel etc I would think it would be feasible. Most of the fish in my 200g system we're QTd in a 40b or 55. You just have to do small batches if you are dealing with large fish and QT a couple fish at a time.

 

[HotRocks]

Again, fish would have had to had ich on it, which is fair to say yes. However it would have had to swim down to the bottom to encycst, but the copper was in place long before the fish hit the tank.

I don’t own a single fish net, hate them for there potential to do gill damage. I use my hand, and I don’t disenfect my hand when transferring a fish.

Lastly, I feed all fish once a day, using two cubes frozen, along with one scoop focus and metro, few drops of garlic, once a week selcon too.

I've said this several times. Ich can and will encyst with copper present it has absolutely no effect on any stage of the parasite other than the free swimming stage. The free swimming stage I'm referring to is the theront stage looking to attach to the fish. Not the trophont stage attached to a fish that falls off the fish becomes a protomont, then encysts as a tomont to release free swimmers.

 

[MnFish1]

Just being constructive here, but I have run the test a dozen or so times in buckets of saltwater, mixed up per hotricksndosage guide just to confirm the numbers in paper match up with the test. Have yet to find any discrepancies. For example, if I mix up 5 gallons and out enough in there on paper to get it to 1.5, the test showed 1.48-1.53 .

Ran this test twice on lfs holding tank, and that is what I got . Instantly turned the reagent a dark color, before hitting the test chamber for Hannah.

As for you finding it unlikely to be that high... have you owned an lfs or any type of facility where fish are constantly being sold?

When they have to top off the water sold, vs evaporations, any given day they can evaporate 3-4 gallons, and sell 20-30 gallons based on how many bags of fish sold.

Without measuring, they could very easily replace 30 gallons worth of copper, when it only really needed 20 gallons worth. Do this 6 days week, and I think it’s fair to say the level can rise or sink fast.

When you top off tanks it wouldn’t raise the copper levels

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

When you top off tanks it wouldn’t raise the copper levels[/QUOTE

The only thing that would raise the copper is evaporation. Topping off won’t because that should be pre-dosed to a specific level anyways.