Done chasing numbers

[Z-man]

I’m not buying into the phosphates number game anymore. I’ve been chasing my phos for 2 weeks and almost lost 3 corals trying to lower my phosphate. Everybody is always saying you want 0.1-0.3,,well mine have been .39–.47 for Klingon time,, all my corals were growing like crazy( doubling in size n more. Then someone said my pho’s is to high n to bring it down,, well I tried and all sudden my corals started looking like crap so I stopped doing what I was doing and went back to my original ways of caring for my tank. And within a week everything started looking better and now my tank is blooming again at a pho’s reading of .43. I’m leaving it alone and will continue to listen to my coral and not 25 different opinions

AMEN!

 

[Joedubyk]

I’m not buying into the phosphates number game anymore. I’ve been chasing my phos for 2 weeks and almost lost 3 corals trying to lower my phosphate. Everybody is always saying you want 0.1-0.3,,well mine have been .39–.47 for Klingon time,, all my corals were growing like crazy( doubling in size n more. Then someone said my pho’s is to high n to bring it down,, well I tried and all sudden my corals started looking like crap so I stopped doing what I was doing and went back to my original ways of caring for my tank. And within a week everything started looking better and now my tank is blooming again at a pho’s reading of .43. I’m leaving it alone and will continue to listen to my coral and not 25 different opinions

Amen. my tank was perfect the way it was . I added rowaphos and within a few months I lost a couple of pieces. My tank is in turmoil right now, really trying hard to get it back to where it was.....ugh. feel for you

 

[lilgrounchuck]

The thing about changing numbers is you have to do it slow. I have vacuumed my sump from detritus before to lower phos and have lost corals because of it in the past.

I cleaned out the filter really good one day and everything reacted badly. I had left the foam in there for like two months and figured I should probably pull it out and clean it. Everything was growing great, so I’m not sure why I touched anything. Nutrients bottomed out after that and my corals were super mad. Some started bleaching out. I fed real heavy to get nuts back up and everything was fine again.

 

[DancingShark]

I cleaned out the filter really good one day and everything reacted badly. I had left the foam in there for like two months and figured I should probably pull it out and clean it. Everything was growing great, so I’m not sure why I touched anything. Nutrients bottomed out after that and my corals were super mad. Some started bleaching out. I fed real heavy to get nuts back up and everything was fine again.

Yup. I recently changed half my 3 year old sand. Man. Nutrients bottomed out, acros started to bleaching. Then the worst came in. Dinoflagellates. I battled that for a put two months. No surprise they killed my most expensive acros in the tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Randy I know you are more or less an expert in this subject you are highly regarded and very well respected I know my numbers are off,they’re not that far off the only one I would think is definitely off kilter would be my phosphates but everything else is perfectly within range of suggested numbers I’m just going to continue what I’m doing and listen to my tank I spend a lot of time in front of it I know it But I do keep in mind of all the advice that I received from such experts as yourself thank you for taking your time to even look at my little post

Don't misunderstand. I'm not saying you should change you parameters. I'm saying that when you do decide they are suboptimal, changing them requires knowledge about how to do so, and if you have the appropriate knowledge and an appropriate target level, "chasing" that target is not going to cause problems.

 

[mitch91175]

. Every once in a while we get these "chasing numbers" threads to add more contradiction to an already confusing topic for those new to the hobby as well as those experienced. Sometimes making people question their process to maintain their tanks.

I'll say this, I chase a range of numbers and do not freak out if something isn't within my "range" and start doing crazy crap to get them back in my range. If PO4 is high (rarely is these days; even have to dose to keep them detectable now), I just watch feeding. If is does get too high, only then will I run something to decrease it (but also make sure that I am not stripping it too fast).

NO3 never been a problem, but I also have to dose it as well to keep it 5-10ppm.
dKH between 8-9.
Calcium around 450ppm
Magnesium is currently high at 1450 (gonna just let is drop naturally)
pH - use a CO2 scrubber to keep it above 8

So yeah we all need to be aware of what our numbers are and maintain an "acceptable" range for our systems. We all do something to stay within our ranges too. Whether it is via water changes, additives, over feeding, etc. everything we do affects out tanks. I believe the key is being in tune with your tank. Just "chasing" the number will not do you any good unless you know how to accomplish it appropriately and you know your tank.

I find the easy approach to it is identifying a coral in your system that tells you when something isn't right. That particular coral can help you identify when NO3/PO4 or any other significant parameter isn't right. From there you test see what is going on the put in an action plan to right the ship over days (not immediately).

 

[Nano sapiens]

IMO, Randy is correct that the issue is not in bringing an outlier parameter back into the accepted range, but rather in how it's done. The most common error by far is when we adjust a parameter(s) too quickly.

A reef aquarium is a highly complex biological system where everything is intimately interconnected. Alter one thing too radically/abruptly and the system will have difficulty.

 

[hawk82]

See this is what Im worried about being new to saltwater. My ph is 8 but everything seems fine, Ive been worried about added stuff to make it 8.2. But some replys on here said 8 is fine, so Im trying to not worry about it. I kept african cichlids over 6 years before switching to saltwater. I could pretty much just let that tank be on autopilot, it just seemed to take care of its self. I did water change once a week, cleaned glass every now and then, that was it. I have to say Im kinda scared of saltwater, I keep testing stuff each day to make sure Im ok. And I keep on the look out for things, everytime I seen a little brown spot I think omg dinos! But it seems to be nothing. Hope I can get to state or enjoying and not worry so much. I dont want to have to fuss over the tank all the time like some kinda chemistry project.

 

[Mikeltee]

Well duh... parameters change throughout the day. Thers is no such thing as perfect parameters. You should be able to tell if something is wrong just by looking at your animals. My tank is 11 years old. All I have is a skimmer and kalk reactor. That is all you need. Anything else was created for the sole purpose to seperate you and your money.

 

[Nano sapiens]

See this is what Im worried about being new to saltwater. My ph is 8 but everything seems fine, Ive been worried about added stuff to make it 8.2. But some replys on here said 8 is fine, so Im trying to not worry about it. I kept african cichlids over 6 years before switching to saltwater. I could pretty much just let that tank be on autopilot, it just seemed to take care of its self. I did water change once a week, cleaned glass every now and then, that was it. I have to say Im kinda scared of saltwater, I keep testing stuff each day to make sure Im ok. And I keep on the look out for things, everytime I seen a little brown spot I think omg dinos! But it seems to be nothing. Hope I can get to state or enjoying and not worry so much. I dont want to have to fuss over the tank all the time like some kinda chemistry project.

Make it simple, just ask yourself "Is the aquarium within the accepted parameter ranges" (which of course you have studied up on). If it is, relax, it's all good! You'll also get a feel for which parameters change relatively quickly and should be tested more frequently, verses those which don't.

In time you'll become more familiar with your system, to the point where you can just look at it and know if something is off.

 

[g_acosta_02]

I’m not buying into the phosphates number game anymore. I’ve been chasing my phos for 2 weeks and almost lost 3 corals trying to lower my phosphate. Everybody is always saying you want 0.1-0.3,,well mine have been .39–.47 for Klingon time,, all my corals were growing like crazy( doubling in size n more. Then someone said my pho’s is to high n to bring it down,, well I tried and all sudden my corals started looking like crap so I stopped doing what I was doing and went back to my original ways of caring for my tank. And within a week everything started looking better and now my tank is blooming again at a pho’s reading of .43. I’m leaving it alone and will continue to listen to my coral and not 25 different opinions

I completely understand you, same thing happened to me about three years ago started chasing numbers and everything just went down hill. So I gave up for about two years but now I am back I dont TEST FOR ANYTHING..... Just weekly water changes and filter management and my tank has been the best ever

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I dont want...some kinda chemistry project.

You don't? Sad. lol

That said, the purpose of this forum is for this exact reason: reef chemistry can be very challenging, but we are here to guide you through it.

We can advise on what to chase and how to chase it, and what can be ignored.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I completely understand you, same thing happened to me about three years ago started chasing numbers and everything just went down hill. So I gave up for about two years but now I am back I dont TEST FOR ANYTHING..... Just weekly water changes and filter management and my tank has been the best ever

Of course, there are also tales of folks with dinos who didn't realize nutrients were too low, burnt tip SPS who didn't realize alk was so high, closed up zooanthids because they didn't realize salinity was so high, etc.

Other folks say their corals took off growing faster when they "chased" and attained kept stable alk.

The key is knowing what to chase and how to chase it.

I know I keep repeating myself, but I do not want this thread or this forum to fall prey to the sky is falling and all we can do is nothing.

 

[NS Mike D]

A new reefer is told to chase numbers, and that isn't the worst advice. When you are starting a tank with dry rock barren of corals and all the other life, with fish (and pressure to stock early to work out territorial issues) it's a petrie dish ripe for nuisance algae invasions and so keeping NO3 and PO4 very low is a commonly accepted path.

And so low NO3 and PO4 are drilled into our heads.

But as the tanks mature, don't these targets change? And isn't there different schools of thought on successful levels of NO3 and PO4 based on other factors like ALk levels and Light level (I don't know enough other than having read this correlation a number of times so it's in the back of my mind).

Mike Paletta just did a podcast on NO3 and PO4 levels, citing that mature tanks (he was sampling a number of tanks he deemed successful) generally (not all) run higher nutrient levels, many outside what you normally read as acceptable levels.


So when Randy includes 'knowing what to chase". I throw up my hands - I suspect as a tank matures, the tank gets to decide this.

 

[hawk82]

You don't? Sad. lol

That said, the purpose of this forum is for this exact reason: reef chemistry can be very challenging, but we are here to guide you through it.

We can advise on what to chase and how to chase it, and what can be ignored.

LOL you know what I mean. I dont want to stand over my the tank all the time with test tubes and stuff. Im not a mad scientist lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Im not a mad scientist lol

not yet. lol

 

[Paulie069]

. Every once in a while we get these "chasing numbers" threads to add more contradiction to an already confusing topic for those new to the hobby as well as those experienced. Sometimes making people question their process to maintain their tanks.

I'll say this, I chase a range of numbers and do not freak out if something isn't within my "range" and start doing crazy crap to get them back in my range. If PO4 is high (rarely is these days; even have to dose to keep them detectable now), I just watch feeding. If is does get too high, only then will I run something to decrease it (but also make sure that I am not stripping it too fast).

NO3 never been a problem, but I also have to dose it as well to keep it 5-10ppm.
dKH between 8-9.
Calcium around 450ppm
Magnesium is currently high at 1450 (gonna just let is drop naturally)
pH - use a CO2 scrubber to keep it above 8

So yeah we all need to be aware of what our numbers are and maintain an "acceptable" range for our systems. We all do something to stay within our ranges too. Whether it is via water changes, additives, over feeding, etc. everything we do affects out tanks. I believe the key is being in tune with your tank. Just "chasing" the number will not do you any good unless you know how to accomplish it appropriately and you know your tank.

I find the easy approach to it is identifying a coral in your system that tells you when something isn't right. That particular coral can help you identify when NO3/PO4 or any other significant parameter isn't right. From there you test see what is going on the put in an action plan to right the ship over days (not immediately).

I agree about listening to your corals might go to coral is a purple gorgonian that if it’s not polop up for more than a day and a half two days then I know somethings amiss

 

[Paulie069]

See this is what Im worried about being new to saltwater. My ph is 8 but everything seems fine, Ive been worried about added stuff to make it 8.2. But some replys on here said 8 is fine, so Im trying to not worry about it. I kept african cichlids over 6 years before switching to saltwater. I could pretty much just let that tank be on autopilot, it just seemed to take care of its self. I did water change once a week, cleaned glass every now and then, that was it. I have to say Im kinda scared of saltwater, I keep testing stuff each day to make sure Im ok. And I keep on the look out for things, everytime I seen a little brown spot I think omg dinos! But it seems to be nothing. Hope I can get to state or enjoying and not worry so much. I dont want to have to fuss over the tank all the time like some kinda chemistry project.

I compare having a saltwater change to having a one and a half-year-old baby that will never grow up and will constantly need me to feed it wipe it’s butt change it until the one day comes when it can walk a little bit on its own and you can just sit back and enjoy without as much maintenance but still there is things you’ll need to do

 

[Nano sapiens]

A new reefer is told to chase numbers, and that isn't the worst advice. When you are starting a tank with dry rock barren of corals and all the other life, with fish (and pressure to stock early to work out territorial issues) it's a petrie dish ripe for nuisance algae invasions and so keeping NO3 and PO4 very low is a commonly accepted path.

And so low NO3 and PO4 are drilled into our heads.

But as the tanks mature, don't these targets change? And isn't there different schools of thought on successful levels of NO3 and PO4 based on other factors like ALk levels and Light level (I don't know enough other than having read this correlation a number of times so it's in the back of my mind).

Mike Paletta just did a podcast on NO3 and PO4 levels, citing that mature tanks (he was sampling a number of tanks he deemed successful) generally (not all) run higher nutrient levels, many outside what you normally read as acceptable levels.


So when Randy includes 'knowing what to chase". I throw up my hands - I suspect as a tank matures, the tank gets to decide this.

To a certain extent in very mature, fully grown out successful systems, somewhat higher PO4 and NO3 levels make sense since there are a lot of mouths to feed. Keeping water parameters at very low pristine natural reef levels while providing as much feeding as needed for the organisms (without degrading water quality) is not an easy task (nature can do this due to large quantities of benthic zooplankton, and some planktonic zooplankton/phytoplankton and the metabolic waste products are of course quickly diluted). Since corals can derive nutrition by various methods, including direct absorption, it's a case of supplementing the feeds provided along with inorganic/organic 'nutrition' obtained by the organisms from the water column.

 

[NS Mike D]

See this is what Im worried about being new to saltwater. My ph is 8 but everything seems fine, Ive been worried about added stuff to make it 8.2. But some replys on here said 8 is fine, so Im trying to not worry about it. I kept african cichlids over 6 years before switching to saltwater. I could pretty much just let that tank be on autopilot, it just seemed to take care of its self. I did water change once a week, cleaned glass every now and then, that was it. I have to say Im kinda scared of saltwater, I keep testing stuff each day to make sure Im ok. And I keep on the look out for things, everytime I seen a little brown spot I think omg dinos! But it seems to be nothing. Hope I can get to state or enjoying and not worry so much. I dont want to have to fuss over the tank all the time like some kinda chemistry project.

hang in there. New tanks, especially those starting with dry rock, IMO, are like threading a needle, and add to the stress, you are lacking the experience of when to act and when to let something ride.
'
It's like learning to steer a boat or fly a plane. You will over adjust reacting to every little movement. After a while you develop a feel and trust the ship/plane will self correct and hold the line steady as you were taught based on the experience of others.

Of course, you don't want to underestimate something and end up in a nose dive.