Dosing nitrate

[GillMeister]

This is pretty much the same marketing trash BRS pushes and I'm in total agreement with using Sodium Nitrate. Its by far the easiest, cheapest and widely available. If you are going to attack Randy at least dont come off sounding like a scientologist.

If you're worried about adding sodium to a tank you must also be worried about adding H2O molecules.

When I stop dosing bicarb to my tank my alk drops. That's why I dose it it. If I stop dosing nitrate to my tank my nitrate drops. Fish are expensive, getting more expensive and more food just feeds my skimmer.

Adding 1/4 teaspoon a week of sodium nitrate is easy, cheap, consistent and works. Not sure what your issue is, other than pushing eclectic chemistry.

EXACTLY! Saying sodium in any form is bad means you have to take the SODIUM CHLORIDE out of the tank as well. Hoo Boy! Knee slapper. When sodium is stripped away from the nitrate it immediately reacts with something. Say chlorine for instance. You won't see free sodium in a tank for long. And I agree that Randy has earned our trust over the years and I've seen no reason to disagree with him on anything.

 

[GillMeister]

For all concerned, here was one of RHF's brief takes on forms of nitrate.

Pattasium Nitrate vs Sodium Nitrate KNO3 vs CaNo3

Hey Fellow Reefers! apologies if the question has been asked. So I have been dosing my tank with Food Grade KNO3 aka Pattasium nitrate & idea popped in to my head that I might be overdosing the Pattasium K part as its more Pattasium then nitrate in in composition. So I am wondering if I should...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[HuduVudu]

EXACTLY! Saying sodium in any form is bad means you have to take the SODIUM CHLORIDE out of the tank as well. Hoo Boy! Knee slapper

You really don't get this do you. Sodium is an ion in an aqueous solution. What you are putting in the tank is not sodium chloride it is a sodium ion and a cation. All of the elements in salt water exist as ions. If they didn't then they would precipitate out.

When sodium is stripped away from the nitrate it immediately reacts with something. Say chlorine for instance.

This is just nonsensical. The sodium doesn't get stripped away from anything. It is in solution. How does this not make sense to you? Don't you understand chemistry? Sodium doesn't react with chlorine in an aqueous solution. If it did then you would have sodium chloride at the bottom of the water. Please do work on your chemistry what you are saying is just not true.

You won't see free sodium in a tank for long.

Once again sodium exists in your tank as an ion. This means that is has a charge from losing an electron.

This is my last post to you. You were looking for a fight all along. Hilariously you are slapping yourself on the back for your chemistry knowledge. What you are saying would mean that you didn't even understand your high school chemistry teacher. Please educate yourself. You just sound foolish.

P.S. Invoking Randy as some sort of talisman God doesn't mean YOU understand what is happening or even what is appropriate for any given situation.

 

[HuduVudu]

For all concerned, here was one of RHF's brief takes on forms of nitrate.

Pattasium Nitrate vs Sodium Nitrate KNO3 vs CaNo3

Hey Fellow Reefers! apologies if the question has been asked. So I have been dosing my tank with Food Grade KNO3 aka Pattasium nitrate & idea popped in to my head that I might be overdosing the Pattasium K part as its more Pattasium then nitrate in in composition. So I am wondering if I should...

www.reef2reef.com

I DID NOT SUGGEST POTASSIUM NITRATE!

Seriously I am done with you just want to fight and be right. You are NOT right and your chemistry understanding is a joke. Good luck with that.

 

[GillMeister]

I'm at a loss for words here, gang. I'm not a chemist but I've had enough years of chemistry that I do understand how chemical reactions take place. None of this is making sense to me.

HuduVudu. I didn't say you suggested potassium nitrate. I just linked someone else's post where they were considering different forms of nitrate as an additive. This forum usually has civil discussion among adults. In order to take this down a notch I'd like to suggest taking this discussion offline via pm. Maybe you can help me understand how you see these chemical and biological reactions taking place.

Fair enough?

 

[ReeferLou]

Did not think nitrate was an explosive topic - unless your using ammonium nitrate to dose ;Nailbiting

 

[GillMeister]

Did not think nitrate was an explosive topic - unless your using ammonium nitrate to dose ;Nailbiting

Add a couple volatile personalities and every subject is explosive.

 

[HuduVudu]

Did not think nitrate was an explosive topic - unless your using ammonium nitrate to dose ;Nailbiting

Me either.

Also just as a point people do dose ammonium nitrate ... for the ammonium. I know it sounds crazy but it is indeed true.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

We can put some perspective on sodium and potassium nitrate dosing concerns with the following info:

Suppose we dose 5 ppm nitrate per day.

We use sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate.

Each 5 ppm of nitrate will add either

1.35 ppm sodium per day
or
2.29 ppm of potassium

Over 1 year (assuming no water changes or salinity corrections or consumption or adjustments of any kind), that dosing boosts these ions by

493 ppm sodium (4.7% increase in sodium)
or
836 ppm potassium (209% increase in potassium)

One the face of it, that is why I recommend sodium nitrate dosing over potassium nitrate dosing, unless you are carefully monitoring potassium.

In both cases, the total alkalinity is also boosted, by 0.45 dKH per day or 164 dKH over the course of a year.

Obviously, the previous assumption that there are no changes in consumption or adjustments is seriously in error, as folks will respond with less alkalinity dosed, salinity monitoring and adjustment, and potentially regular water changes.

If you happen to be using sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide for alkalinity dosing, and you reduce that dosing to offset the alkalinity added, then you will be reducing the dosing of sodium to your aquarium.

In fact, you reduce sodium dosing BY EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT as it increased with you dosed sodium nitrate. That's not a coincidence, but rather the simple exact relationship between nitrate dosing and alkalinity: 1 unit of alkalinity per nitrate dosed, which is also one sodium dosed per unit of alkalinity, just like sodium bicarbonate dosing.

Thus, over the course of a year in that scenario (alk stable with sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide), the nitrate dosing has the following effect:

0 ppm sodium (0% increase in sodium)
or
836 ppm potassium (209% increase in potassium)

which is, IMO, another reason to avoid potassium nitrate.

There are other ways to deal with the increasing alkalinity from nitrate dosing, and assuming you maintain salinity, they ALL tend to reduce the accumulation of sodium substantially.

I can go through the analysis for anyone who wants to for any given scenario, but in short, the boost to sodium to dosing sodium nitrate will range from zero to quite small. While "small" is an opinion valuation, IMO, the increase to sodium is insignificant for ordinary uses of sodium nitrate.

 

[HuduVudu]

If you happen to be using sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide for alkalinity dosing, and you reduce that dosing to offset the alkalinity added, then you will be reducing the dosing of sodium to your aquarium.

Ugghhhh.

Your demand for nitrate is mutually exclusive for your demand for alkalinity, so why would you drop your carbonate/bicarbonate dosing and then make up with nitrate. In fact more so since you are skipping the ammonium conversion. This makes no sense. You will still need the carbonate/bicarbonate that you dropped, and if you didn't then why are you dosing it? What you are saying here really really misleading. Why you put this in here I can only guess at, but it then allows you to say that you are not adding to the sodium levels. To be clear you are still adding sodium, in this scenario, you just aren't adding MORE sodium. Saying that you are are adding zero sodium .... MORE, is entirely misleading.

While "small" is an opinion valuation, IMO, the increase to sodium is insignificant for ordinary uses of sodium nitrate.

Why not skip the sodium altogether and use calcium or magnesium. They are just as cheap and just as available. Seriously why we are now debating potassium which honestly is just as bad as sodium for the same reasons, and for the reasons that you state, is utterly beyond me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Ugghhhh.

Your demand for nitrate is mutually exclusive for your demand for alkalinity, so why would you drop your carbonate/bicarbonate dosing and then make up with nitrate. In fact more so since you are skipping the ammonium conversion. This makes no sense. You will still need the carbonate/bicarbonate that you dropped, and if you didn't then why are you dosing it? What you are saying here really really misleading. Why you put this in here I can only guess at, but it then allows you to say that you are not adding to the sodium levels. To be clear you are still adding sodium, in this scenario, you just aren't adding MORE sodium. Saying that you are are adding zero sodium .... MORE, is entirely misleading.


Why not skip the sodium altogether and use calcium or magnesium. They are just as cheap and just as available. Seriously why we are now debating potassium which honestly is just as bad as sodium for the same reasons, and for the reasons that you state, is utterly beyond me.

I am not misleading anyone. Dosing nitrate in ANY form adds alkalinity when it is consumed, whether you want it to or not.

If you do not account for that somehow, alkalinity will rise. Obviously someone who doses sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide based on alk testing will do this without even thinking of it, and thereby eliminate any concern about sodium from the nitrate dosing. This is true of the majority of reefers, I believe, and so concerns about sodium are not an issue for them.

Yes, calcium nitrate is a fine way to go. You will still have to downward adjust your other dosing of calcium and alkalinity. But if you do, that works out OK. I do not recommend magnesium nitrate as magnesium will accumulate. Not a big deal, but no reason to do that.

We are considering the effects of potassium nitrate as it is widely used and promoted by many reefers.

It is true that the larger accumulation of sodium and chloride is a potential concern for people using calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide, especially if not doing water changes.. That is what the Balling Part C deals with perfectly, and to a less complete extent, the part 3 of the DIY two part system.

 

[HuduVudu]

I am not misleading anyone. Dosing nitrate in ANY form adds alkalinity when it is consumed, whether you want it to or not.

Ok, let's see it.

We are considering the effects of potassium nitrate as it is widely used and promoted by many reefers.

Actually this post is about nitrate addition. No one in this thread has posted that potassium was a good form to dose nitrate. To repeat no where in this thread has that been suggested.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Actually this post is about nitrate addition. No one in this thread has posted that potassium was a good form to dose nitrate. To repeat no where in this thread has that been suggested.

It is widely recommended at Reef2Reef and elsewhere to use "stump remover" or "Spectracide". Dozens of pages of hits when searching on those terms at reef2Reef. Before I started recommending food grade sodium nitrate, it seemed to be the go to product for nitrate dosing. Hence, it is very useful to discuss its pros and cons when discussing the fate of the other ions.

There's a typical one that goes on for 38 pages of discussion:

Potassium nitrate (Spectracide stump remover) dosing steps

Hi R2R fans! Here I have another write up this time about potassium nitrate. With this I hope to answer all the questions I have received. This step by step is for my 80 gallons total volume. I run the full triton method so your uptake of no3 will be different than mine. First lets start with...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Ok, let's see it.


Actually this post is about nitrate addition. No one in this thread has posted that potassium was a good form to dose nitrate. To repeat no where in this thread has that been suggested.

See what?

Why consuming nitrate adds alkalinity?

It's exactly the reverse of why accumulating nitrate depletes alkalinity. I discuss both here:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

from it:

Likewise, equation 3 (below) shows the uptake of nitrate and CO2 into macroalgae to form typical organic molecules:

(3) 122 CO2 + 122 H2O + 16 NO3- --> C106H260O106N16 + 138 O2 + 16 HCO3-

Again, one bicarbonate ion is produced for each nitrate ion consumed.

 

[GillMeister]

It is widely recommended at Reef2Reef and elsewhere to use "stump remover" or "Spectracide". Dozens of pages of hits when searching on those terms at reef2Reef. Before I started recommending food grade sodium nitrate, it seemed to be the go to product for nitrate dosing. Hence, it is very useful to discuss its pros and cons when discussing the fate of the other ions.

There's a typical one that goes on for 38 pages of discussion:

Potassium nitrate (Spectracide stump remover) dosing steps

Hi R2R fans! Here I have another write up this time about potassium nitrate. With this I hope to answer all the questions I have received. This step by step is for my 80 gallons total volume. I run the full triton method so your uptake of no3 will be different than mine. First lets start with...

www.reef2reef.com

I was NOT about to put stump remover in my tank so I went with the recommendation of yours and others to go with the reagent grade NaNO3. It is POTENT stuff. I don't have to use much to get colors popping. I do have to dose slowly so I simply keep a little in my ATO.

 

[HuduVudu]

See what?

Why consuming nitrate adds alkalinity?

It's exactly the reverse of why accumulating nitrate depletes alkalinity. I discuss both here:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

from it:

Likewise, equation 3 (below) shows the uptake of nitrate and CO2 into macroalgae to form typical organic molecules:

(3) 122 CO2 + 122 H2O + 16 NO3- --> C106H260O106N16 + 138 O2 + 16 HCO3-

Again, one bicarbonate ion is produced for each nitrate ion consumed.

First off why does this equation not include phosphate? Second why are you showing the conversion for the carbon concentration mechanism. This is an interim step and one that should ideally not leak outside of the plant/algae. The goal of the plant/algae will be to bind the carbon for the final storage into glucose. Photosynthesis' primary purpose is to fix carbon for plant growth and energy. This is a process that removes carbon not add it, and most certainly doesn't convert it unless by accident through leakage. I would be hard pressed to believe leakage contributes in any meaningful way to carbonate in the aquarium.

Once the carbon has been fixed and used it is then bound to the plant/algae. If the plant/algae dies then it releases the amount that was fixed and that will added back into the aquarium through the aerobic, or anaerobic, breakdown putting us precisely back where we came from.

We can export that plant/algae from the aquarium if it is in say a chaeto ball, but all we are doing at the end of the day is moving carbon dioxide out of the aquarium. This is by no means adding carbonate/bicarbonate back to the aquarium.

I am still not convinced that nitrate has anything at all with alkalinity, and the rabbit hole I went down to understand these mechanisms leaves me even more convinced that this is not the case.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

First off why does this equation not include phosphate?

For the same reason it does not include sulfur and iron and dozens of other atoms: they are not needed to make the point.

But if you think it changes anything (it does not) I can just take a different equation from my articles:


122 CO2 + 122 H2O + 3 H+ + PO4— + 16 NO3– --> (CH2O)106(NH3)16(H3PO4) + 138 O2 + 16HCO3-

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I am still not convinced that nitrate has anything at all with alkalinity, and the rabbit hole I went down to understand these mechanisms leaves me even more convinced that this is not the case.

I'm sorry you do not feel you have a good understanding of these principles. I'm more than happy to continue to help.

If you want to super simplify the equations and thoughts, and leave out the carbon and other aspects of the reactions we can just look at the conversion of nitrate to usable ammonia. That is the process that is adding the alkalinity. Any use of the ammonia or oxygen after that is unimportant (unless the ammonia is converted back into nitrate, obviously)

NO3- + H+ + H2O --> NH3 + 2O2

Thus, that conversion MUST add alkalinity because it is consuming H+. It is equivalent to writing it as:

NO3- + 2 H2O --> NH3 + 2O2 + OH-

Again, the reaction clearly adds alkalinity as OH-.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I am still not convinced that nitrate has anything at all with alkalinity, and the rabbit hole I went down to understand these mechanisms leaves me even more convinced that this is not the case.

In case I have not convinced you of these accepted chemical principles, you can read them in the scientific literature. The reactions they show in Table 1 are the same reactions that I showed above.

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2010GB003859

106CO2 + 16HNO3 + H3PO4 → organic + 138O2

"In reactions associated with nitrogen species that cause alkalinity changes, photosynthesis produces alkalinity by consuming nitrate (R1 in Table 1 [see also Wolf‐Gladrow et al., 2007]). On the other hand, aerobic remineralization returns proton to seawater and thus cancels the alkalinity changes caused by primary production if the CNP ratios of these processes keep the same."

 

[DeniableArc]

Love a good randy Holmes - Farley chemistry battle!