IONDirector updates
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porter_painter
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It’s exactly the same situation as the KHD launch.
I personally got really annoyed about that one, especially when after the delays, and the lack of comms.
I kind of understand that GHL are dammed if they do, dammed if they don’t:-
If GHL didn’t announce these items, people would go with other controllers/monitors or start slating ghl for not having a product. Equally if you announce something and then don’t deliver GHL get flammed by (often) the same folks for over promising.
I think the kicker is here that the money’s been taken up front for a minimal discount...that’s how I felt about it with the khd anyway. You’d bought the product, and then it started to feel like a Kickstarter where you’re not sure if what you’ve paid for is coming or will work.
I personally didn’t pre-order this iond as I guessed this might happen.
GHL are a good company, with good people. They are well intentioned and will try their very best, as a small company, to deliver the best product they can.
I personally got really annoyed about that one, especially when after the delays, and the lack of comms.
I kind of understand that GHL are dammed if they do, dammed if they don’t:-
If GHL didn’t announce these items, people would go with other controllers/monitors or start slating ghl for not having a product. Equally if you announce something and then don’t deliver GHL get flammed by (often) the same folks for over promising.
I think the kicker is here that the money’s been taken up front for a minimal discount...that’s how I felt about it with the khd anyway. You’d bought the product, and then it started to feel like a Kickstarter where you’re not sure if what you’ve paid for is coming or will work.
I personally didn’t pre-order this iond as I guessed this might happen.
GHL are a good company, with good people. They are well intentioned and will try their very best, as a small company, to deliver the best product they can.
Calm down, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Good bad or otherwise. If you don’t agree with their summations that’s your choice. You also have no idea about anyones situation. As for my double speak comment.. It’s pretty easy to see if you read what they wrote. I’m not going to waste time trying to explain it to you.. You’ll just want to fight over it and it’s obvious no one will convince you otherwise. Anyone that retorts every comment with fluff like I posted above just is here to argue.
When I got the email from GHL on the update, I immediately thought "I should go to R2R to see the drama unfold since I'm bored". Not sure why so much conflict on this topic.
Last I recall, GHL is not holding hostage, anyone's money like the folks over at the now defunct mindstream. You can ask for a full refund of your pre-order just as I had many months ago. That said, I get that people want to vent their frustrations of the situation - a very promising product that we can't seem to get our hands on, fair enough. Now if you're still traumatized by the ordeal after asking for a refund and still hang around here to flame on every single update related to GHL's IOND, then I suggest we move on. We're definitely entitled to opinions, but it is probably not very healthy to come online to flame on something that you no longer have skin in the game for.
Let's just get along, folks
Last I recall, GHL is not holding hostage, anyone's money like the folks over at the now defunct mindstream. You can ask for a full refund of your pre-order just as I had many months ago. That said, I get that people want to vent their frustrations of the situation - a very promising product that we can't seem to get our hands on, fair enough. Now if you're still traumatized by the ordeal after asking for a refund and still hang around here to flame on every single update related to GHL's IOND, then I suggest we move on. We're definitely entitled to opinions, but it is probably not very healthy to come online to flame on something that you no longer have skin in the game for.
Let's just get along, folks
I kind of wonder at what point does this stop.
If it goes from May/June to Sept/Oct 2021 are people still going to say just wait a bit longer? IMHO at this point it's just on the edge of what one can expect customers to endure so I really think that come June it's going to reach the end game. I know that for those people that are totally rooted in the GHL ecosystem there is no delay that will dissuade them and I totally get that but for those who are thinking of just a standalone system it's going to become a hard sell.
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Member No 1
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WHAT???? NO! Tell me it ain't so!!!
Tristren
Well-Known Member
No need to get stressed about it is good advice for everyone. I can totally understand how this would be incredibly frustrating for anyone really waiting for this. And it is a solid chunk of money to have sunk into something for so long without getting anything out of it.
On the other hand the very good point was made that we are free to get a full refund at any time. No harm no foul.
I also agree that more frequent updates would be better. I think I have heard the “this is Americans complaining” point enough. And I’m Canadian so I’m generally good with making fun of Americans and pretending we aren’t exactly the same But good customer service doesn’t have to mean “the customer is always right”. Proactive and open communication is also just a good thing. And GHL has been very open and transparent throughout, but I do feel they should be more proactive.
Personally I would appreciate understanding of the timeline for an eventual rollout. If we view the current “end of March” date as the next milestone/decision point as opposed to the planned shipping date the process starts to make more sense. If we knew how long between the end of beta and actual shipments to end customers it would help manage expectations. As well as understanding if there are other possible delay points in that process. Eg how much production is needed after beta / do they have an inventory of units ready for probes, do they have an inventory of parts, or will they be waiting on parts from overseas. They don’t need to specify if they don’t want to, but a sense of where in the process things are would be helpful. There are lots of details that could legitimately delay the process. This is more info than customers normally get I suppose. But given the amount of time and the dedicated customer base (as evidenced by the pre-payments) I think it would be a good move to lay out a general timeline for the rest of the process.
Cheers, Tony
On the other hand the very good point was made that we are free to get a full refund at any time. No harm no foul.
I also agree that more frequent updates would be better. I think I have heard the “this is Americans complaining” point enough. And I’m Canadian so I’m generally good with making fun of Americans and pretending we aren’t exactly the same
But good customer service doesn’t have to mean “the customer is always right”. Proactive and open communication is also just a good thing. And GHL has been very open and transparent throughout, but I do feel they should be more proactive.Personally I would appreciate understanding of the timeline for an eventual rollout. If we view the current “end of March” date as the next milestone/decision point as opposed to the planned shipping date the process starts to make more sense. If we knew how long between the end of beta and actual shipments to end customers it would help manage expectations. As well as understanding if there are other possible delay points in that process. Eg how much production is needed after beta / do they have an inventory of units ready for probes, do they have an inventory of parts, or will they be waiting on parts from overseas. They don’t need to specify if they don’t want to, but a sense of where in the process things are would be helpful. There are lots of details that could legitimately delay the process. This is more info than customers normally get I suppose. But given the amount of time and the dedicated customer base (as evidenced by the pre-payments) I think it would be a good move to lay out a general timeline for the rest of the process.
Cheers, Tony
Member No 1
Well-Known Member
Food for thought from a different perspective.
Being in manufacturing (GM at deltran.com) let me share with you what I am facing on a daily bases, and with speaking with my piers, so are they.
Deltran Inc. is a job shop that specializes in precision metal stampings and high speed tapping with customers in the electronics, telecommunication, aerospace, automotive, and power transmission fields.
We purchase raw material from a secondary slitting/rolling house who in turn get the raw material mill direct. Typical lead times on raw materials (brass, copper, steel, stainless, aluminum) would range from 2-5 weeks.
COVID has had a major effect on getting the basic raw materials I need. Most of last year, we didn't see much an increase in lead times, however, since the beginning of this year some lead times have been increased to 10 months. Reason being, with demand down the mills slowed production, turned off some of their blast furnaces and laid people off.
Now with demand increasing, the mills can't keep up. It takes a very long time to bring the furnaces back on line, and add to that, workers returning to work need to be vetted for COVID, new workers need training (8-12 weeks) and the kicker, once they find out how hard the job is, they quit to go back to sitting on the couch collecting the same pay to do nothing.
This brings me to my point, my customers (like us with GHL) want their product now, they don't care about the delays I have in getting raw materials, and call/email me daily for updates and explanations on why I can't deliver on time.
No matter how many times I explain the situation, they believe I'm not doing enough.
I won't even get into the added issues of why the cost of the parts have increased 15-25% which I need to jump thru hoops for them to agree to. But in case you are wondering, as an example, Copper is up 48-52% which in turn drive the raw material up anywhere from 25-40%.
Trust me, I would love to be able get these parts out the door ASAP and make money, but do to supply issues beyond my control, I can't.
Now I know GHL is still in the trial phase, but when it comes time for production, they might have supply issues too.
Being in manufacturing (GM at deltran.com) let me share with you what I am facing on a daily bases, and with speaking with my piers, so are they.
Deltran Inc. is a job shop that specializes in precision metal stampings and high speed tapping with customers in the electronics, telecommunication, aerospace, automotive, and power transmission fields.
We purchase raw material from a secondary slitting/rolling house who in turn get the raw material mill direct. Typical lead times on raw materials (brass, copper, steel, stainless, aluminum) would range from 2-5 weeks.
COVID has had a major effect on getting the basic raw materials I need. Most of last year, we didn't see much an increase in lead times, however, since the beginning of this year some lead times have been increased to 10 months. Reason being, with demand down the mills slowed production, turned off some of their blast furnaces and laid people off.
Now with demand increasing, the mills can't keep up. It takes a very long time to bring the furnaces back on line, and add to that, workers returning to work need to be vetted for COVID, new workers need training (8-12 weeks) and the kicker, once they find out how hard the job is, they quit to go back to sitting on the couch collecting the same pay to do nothing.
This brings me to my point, my customers (like us with GHL) want their product now, they don't care about the delays I have in getting raw materials, and call/email me daily for updates and explanations on why I can't deliver on time.
No matter how many times I explain the situation, they believe I'm not doing enough.
I won't even get into the added issues of why the cost of the parts have increased 15-25% which I need to jump thru hoops for them to agree to. But in case you are wondering, as an example, Copper is up 48-52% which in turn drive the raw material up anywhere from 25-40%.
Trust me, I would love to be able get these parts out the door ASAP and make money, but do to supply issues beyond my control, I can't.
Now I know GHL is still in the trial phase, but when it comes time for production, they might have supply issues too.
THIS!
If only people would stop and think about situations instead of knee jerk reacting the world would be a better place.
I'll be waiting for my IOND. There's no doubt in my mind it will be a great product.
Completely off topic by now but I did some work for a mining company and one thing that struck me as interesting was that they couldn't easily stop and restart metal production. Because as the molten metal cooled in place it would destroy parts of the foundry equipment. So, at least for them, 'turning it off' actually meant accepting that you'd have to dismantle and dispose of a lot of equipment and replace it with new stuff. The total cost of 'turning it off' was eye-watering.
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CEReefer
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I mean this thing is going to be so cool, that I will wait regardless, even if the frustration is killing me.. anyway, to more important things.. What struck me was that the post showing Vinny’s setup, says that you can control doaing based on Ca, Mg but just check the rest.. I would love to carbon dose based on NO3.. is that a possibility? @Vinny@GHLUSA
Member No 1
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All of this, but mainly this: "I would love to carbon dose based on NO3"
tastyfish
Well-Known Member
These threads are always interesting. I remember similar outrage at Neptune when they were trying to get the Triton developed and to market.
The way I look at it is this: I had the option to pre-buy at a significant discount, in the knowledge that the product was not fully developed yet and with the best will in the world, a release date would be best effort (and that's not withstanding a global pandemic).
At that time, I chose not to, as frankly, I knew the date was liable to slide and I wanted to be the second group of customers to get one.
It's pointless getting bent out of shape about it. It's a shared risk and you can get your money back instantly from GHL and always have been able to.
I love the concept of the IonD and have a lot of confidence that a company as engineering focused as GHL is will get it right AND will not release it unless they are absolutely happy with the quality and consistency.
But I'll wait until it releases. Or if I absolutely HAVE to have automated testing NOW, and can't possibly survive without it, I'll go and buy a MasterTronic. Personally I'd rather have an IonD as I think the approach is better, hence, I'll wait.
The way I look at it is this: I had the option to pre-buy at a significant discount, in the knowledge that the product was not fully developed yet and with the best will in the world, a release date would be best effort (and that's not withstanding a global pandemic).
At that time, I chose not to, as frankly, I knew the date was liable to slide and I wanted to be the second group of customers to get one.
It's pointless getting bent out of shape about it. It's a shared risk and you can get your money back instantly from GHL and always have been able to.
I love the concept of the IonD and have a lot of confidence that a company as engineering focused as GHL is will get it right AND will not release it unless they are absolutely happy with the quality and consistency.
But I'll wait until it releases. Or if I absolutely HAVE to have automated testing NOW, and can't possibly survive without it, I'll go and buy a MasterTronic. Personally I'd rather have an IonD as I think the approach is better, hence, I'll wait.
tastyfish
Well-Known Member
I hadn't even thought of that use case - which is really cool, except you would surely need to consider Orp and other water quality issues (possibly DO) and have strict limits on the % change.
Member No 1
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Maybe not so much carbon dose, but more NO3 dosing and possibly PO4 once you have a ratio figured out.
I manually dose both along with carbon dosing.
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Member No 1
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Awesome, thanks!
vangvace
Well-Known Member
In fairness, they have 3 or 4 more years before they hit Duplo block levels of delay
I gathered that the QC specs of the probes or raw materials wasn't correct for the environmental factors; whether too tight or loose.
