LED vs T5s - math question

[ecam]

So I currently run 3 Radions - gen 3 pros on my frag tank (80 gallon rimless) using SPS + AB - which is awesome by the way.

I run 8 bulb ATI - T5 on my 180 DT. So given the new radion release and the great growth im getting with the new radion schedule I was considering getting Gens 4. But im from the camp that believes that you need 2 per 24" not 1. So im going to do this math based on 3 lights and 6. Here we go

Cost of Running T5s.... 8*80w = 680 watts/ hr
I run 2 hrs of Actinics @ 2 bulbs = ( 80*2*8) = 1,280 watts
6 hrs of daylights (80*6*6) = 2,880
Total daily usuage = 4,160 watts / 1000 = 4.16 KWHs @ $0.11 = $0.46/day to run the lights
So based on 365 days $167.90/ yr to run lights
+ cost of annual bulb replacement $150.00/ year for 8 bulbs
Total operating w\ bulb replacement = $317.90/yr


Radions - assuming 75%
(170W * .75) = 127.50 * 3 * 8hrs = 3,060 watts /1000 = 3.06KWH = 3.06*0.11 = .3366/day


So i'm saving $0.13 a day by running radions in operating cost or $50/year

Cost of 3 fixtures = 749*3 = $2247
ATI fixture w\ bulb = 800 + 150 = $950

2247-950 = $1,297 upfront for LEDs

$317.90/12 = $26.5/ per month to operate

that would take 49 months or 4 years to break even on LEDs not including the fact the LED life span is 5yrs and every year with bulb replacement you get a new fixture....

I just dont see the point.... anymore. Can someone point me to any fallacy in analysis.....

Thanks and sorry for the long post. Blame my new Kill-watt meter and Ultimate corals for this rant.....

 

[MaddyP]

Your math looks stable...this comparison is the reason I went with T5 instead of LED. It's nice to hear someone else in the camp of "more than 1 Radion per 24 inch" camp, I thought I was alone...

 

[Reefpro]

I think you also need to look at longevity of the LED,s how long till your warranty runs out and or bulbs/fans go out. I went away from Led's for this vary reason. We rarely stay with the exact same lighting for that long anyways so the upfront cost is what gets you. The .13 per day is neglegable in imo. Only thing I like better with LED is the heat and better mounting options

 

[mcarroll]

It's the up-front cost on the LED fixtures....you have the right idea, just consider switching gears and taking more of those cost savings for yourself.

A DIY build that grows mad corals could be built for waaaay less than $500, just for perspective. It turns on and off, doesn't have a moonrise, or sunset. But it's cheap, easy to build, and corals love it. (It possible you're underestimating the contribution of water quality and your husbandry to your success....lights aren't that important.)

First, if your 180 is a standard 72x24x24H" tank, I think you're going to be shocked at the amount of shading you get switching from your T5 system.

I'd suggest a 72" CurrentUSA Orbit Marine Pro DUAL kit...on sale from what a Google shows.....$1080 for a 180 gallon-sized system. No shading, plenty of color and intensity and pretty reasonable cost even when not on sale.

It's a thought.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

No figuring of the cost of the extra 2-3 gallons per gallon of evap with t5's vs led?
What about the cost of AC in the house to combat the extra heat of t5's vs led?
If a chiller is involved, where's those numbers?!
(just givin ya crap, but those are real points when people consider cost of operation I guess)

 

[mcarroll]

Oh! I forgot the other half....if you must stick with Ecotech (and don't want better economics) you'll be much happier going with a higher number of smaller fixtures....the more and smaller, the better. I don't know if they penalize you on cost for designing this way. I think it works out OK with AI's....

 

[ecam]

No figuring of the cost of the extra 2-3 gallons per gallon of evap with t5's vs led?
What about the cost of AC in the house to combat the extra heat of t5's vs led?
If a chiller is involved, where's those numbers?!
(just givin ya crap, but those are real points when people consider cost of operation I guess)

I can only base this calc on what my experience is. I have a bsmt setup and don't require such things. Evaporation has to many variables inclusive of lights that could cause high levels

 

[Brew12]

I just dont see the point.... anymore. Can someone point me to any fallacy in analysis.....

It's not a fallacy, more like a generalization. You are only paying $0.13/kwh so unless you have heat issues it probably can't be cost justified.
If you lived in California with its $0.15, Alaska with $0.18 or Hawaii sitting at $0.33 the LED's would be much easier to justify.

 

[clownsrcool]

No figuring of the cost of the extra 2-3 gallons per gallon of evap with t5's vs led?
What about the cost of AC in the house to combat the extra heat of t5's vs led?
If a chiller is involved, where's those numbers?!
(just givin ya crap, but those are real points when people consider cost of operation I guess)

To keep the argument going I run an 8bulb T5/LED hybrid and heat is not an issue at all for me. My "chiller" consists of 2 fans which is prob a total of 20-30 watts. Since switching from a mag pump to a Vectra my heaters are actually still running because of the drop in excess heat generated. Before I could drop the tank temp by 3 degrees by having those fans occasionally run throughout the day. So my cooling costs were nothing.

My point with all that is that most people won't even need a chiller to run them so this argument is largely invalid.

If I also wanted to counter that I could argue that using T5s will reduce your heater usage which saves some money as well. Nobody ever talks about the fact that when running LEDs you probably run your heater a lot more than those with other types of lighting. Last time I checked running heaters was no more efficient than running a chiller.

Also before everyone gets all worked up about the G4 radions new lens I think we should reserve our judgement until they actually come out and are real world tested. Their claims are for marketing reasons and are designed to make to feel like you have to have this light because it solves all your problems with their last one. That doesn't mean it actually will.

My final point I'd like to make is that since LEDs are the newest and most rapidly changing piece of lighting equipment nobody owns the same fixture for the life of the fixture. It's like with cell phones, most people trade up to the latest and greatest far before their fixture produces any actual savings for the user at all. So the purchase price just compounds to the point to where the savings of the technology are impossible to ever meet.

 

[Reefpro]

To keep the argument going I run an 8bulb T5/LED hybrid and heat is not an issue at all for me. My "chiller" consists of 2 fans which is prob a total of 20-30 watts. Since switching from a mag pump to a Vectra my heaters are actually still running because of the drop in excess heat generated. Before I could drop the tank temp by 3 degrees by having those fans occasionally run throughout the day. So my cooling costs were nothing.

My point with all that is that most people won't even need a chiller to run them so this argument is largely invalid.

If I also wanted to counter that I could argue that using T5s will reduce your heater usage which saves some money as well. Nobody ever talks about the fact that when running LEDs you probably run your heater a lot more than those with other types of lighting. Last time I checked running heaters was no more efficient than running a chiller.

Also before everyone gets all worked up about the G4 radions new lens I think we should reserve our judgement until they actually come out and are real world tested. Their claims are for marketing reasons and are designed to make to feel like you have to have this light because it solves all your problems with their last one. That doesn't mean it actually will.

My final point I'd like to make is that since LEDs are the newest and most rapidly changing piece of lighting equipment nobody owns the same fixture for the life of the fixture. It's like with cell phones, most people trade up to the latest and greatest far before their fixture produces any actual savings for the user at all. So the purchase price just compounds to the point to where the savings of the technology are impossible to ever meet.

My point exactly

 

[clownsrcool]

OP you also didn't factor in the fact that nobody just buys the radions and that's it. They have other products for add on sales that are almost required purchases.

Almost all customers will buy one of their mounting solutions and a reeflink. So that adds to the purchase price as well.

 

[luke33]

I would agree with your math. A few things to think about, the gen 4's are $800 so add another $150bux(unless there is a sale as i have no idea) but i believe for a 180g you may need 4 to completely cover your tank. The latest BRS video i read acted like to truly cover your tank for sps you need to have one every 12-18".

I look at the radion's as overpriced myself especially for the coverage, same with the AI's. If i'm going to pay $800 for a controllable fixture i will get something like the new reefbreeders fixture which will cover 60" just fine.

Then again you could always do something like the mars 32" fixture and run two, which would set you at 335bux and you could probably run them at 70/40% meaning your pulling 330w * 8hrs at 2640w per day, then i believe your entire match would change dramatically. With some of these led fixture's its almost like your looking at a cost per square inch coverage.

But yea, i totally get what your saying.....i love my 8x80w ati : )

 

[dragon99]

I think only giving the LED's a 5yr lifespan is under rating them. Hardware failures aside (which we have no hard #'s to represent) the diodes themselves are good for a minimum of 10yrs.

From: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/10/aafeature
If all the required operation conditions are fulfilled, we will still be getting about 70% of LED's initial radiation power after 40 (150) thousand hours of operation. These figures translate to 10 (33) years of operation of a light fixture, providing 12 hours of operation daily!

However, 5yrs is long time still. With the inevitable advancement of lighting it's fair to estimate that many people will want to upgrade their lighting in that timeframe. As pointed out above though, just comparing T5 to Radion's doesn't represent the state of the technology. There are MUCH cheaper (and still effective) solutions available.

 

[Breadman03]

I think the main difference is heat generated by the lighting source and how much it costs you to compensate for that heat, whether through the use of chillers, air conditioners, or heaters. I live in the Poconos, so I doubt it makes much difference which choice I make due to summer and winter balancing each other out. A Floridian would probably see significant savings with LED and an Alaskan would see halides as economical.

That said, I have two Radions and a halide over my tank with Gen 4's soon to arrive. I'm going to pretty-up my halide mount and use the combo to hopefully get a rocking SPS display.