Moonshiners method feedback

[Doctorgori]

Just a reminder of the OP’s first question

“For those of you that Shine do you like it? How long, what other methods have you used.
Pro cons”

Let’s keep responses to what you’ve actually used and like/dislike about it per the request and not criticize methods only read about.

All due respect to the OP as this was a good thread but likewise bound to get a lil out past the original scope.
IMO The input shouldn’t just be limited to those who have experience but should benefit those like me and the OP who are still considering it….
So just lurking to find the value add in $200 bucks worth of elixir and $200 worth of ICP test…
Did I mention I hate water changes?

 

[jda]

I think that the another point, which Dr RHF is trying to make, I think, is whether or not you need to trust all of the unsubstantiated claims. Also, if some of these claims are unsubstantiated, then what about others from the manufacturer?

 

[Reefahholic]

IMO, the issue would be to isolate the tested element from all other influences such as light, flow etc; and then to quantify the parameters of what "better" is.

Yeah, I agree that’s the problem with about everything in this hobby. There are so many variables that influence everything that it’s almost impossible to get good data even in a controlled setting.

 

[Tha Reefer]

Here we have a frag I recently sold on the RT. Keep in mind I’ve been targeting PO4 at 0.3-0.4 ppm (experiment). So PO4 is up there! NO3 is 20+ too. On the LT side we have the original frag (same frag in both pics) after receiving it locally from a guy that is SPS dominated. You can see just from the frag (RT) that the color and growth are much different from the original even in what many would consider very high Nutrient levels.

One thing I want to mention about the Reef Moonshiner’s method that anybody who has been in the hobby long enough will know. It’s not some magic Unicorn method! Let’s make that clear.

It’s just common sense. We’re all trying to target elements close to what they are in the natural ocean. The difference with Moonshine is that we elevate elements slightly, and pay close attention to the entire Chemistry. This is similar to the Full Triton method, but still different. We’re elevating for color pop, but also trying to avoid elements becoming low or depleted. What makes Reef Moonshiner’s unique is our tools are very quick and simple to use. Even the ICP data is in order as you go down the page entering values. No need to jump around looking for elements/values and where to enter them. Another positive is that Andre is pretty much available 7 days a week answering questions in the group, and helping folks with complex problems. Not only Andre, but we have a good group (Several Pros, Frams, LFS, etc..) who know the method and are willing to help new reefers. As far as I know, there is no other program or method that offers this kind of support. Most can attest to Andre’s Tenacity. He runs on a different octane rating than I do.

We are pretty much the only method out there that is using primarily OCEAMO ICP-MS, and targeting several Metallic’s / “ultra trace” elements down as low as 0.05 ug/L. That sensitivity is insane if you ask me. My lowest “bottom end” target is 0.26 ug/L. I don’t even need to get below 0.2 ug/L, but it’s definitely nice to know you have that kind of sensitivity. I’ve seen it with my own eyes for months. I can tell you, I’ll never run a reef w/o closely monitoring my chemistry ever again. For me…it’s that important based off what I’ve seen in my own system and observations from others.

Reef Moonshiner’s will also be shipping samples to Austria 3x weekly soon (Currently still Monday and Friday I believe)
which will make turnaround times for a quality ICP faster than ever. Mine take about 6 days currently which is pretty good if you ask me.

Lastly, the ability to see so many ICP results and learn from each other in the group is priceless. I’d encourage anybody to come hang out even if you don’t want to use the method. Not everybody is a Reef Junkie, but many like to observe.

For me it’s simple…use any method you want. Test your tank and correct elements that are low or depleted. That’s it. Personally, I find this method the easiest way to do that. I’ve know Andre for about 10 years now, and I know he’s big into purity and doesn’t skip on elements. He’ll take a hit to the wallet before he’ll buy some cheap elements. For me that is another reason why I prefer the Shine (Purity reasons). You ask anybody in the group, and most will tell you that he’s not after money, because he literally gives stuff away all the time. That’s a fact! He’s a Reef Junkie. Lol He’s one of us!

I'm interested. Where is this form at ?

 

[Reefahholic]

I would do substantial and repetitive ICP testing of the water to guide dosing and exporting.

This is the most intelligent thing I’ve heard Randy say in this thread. This is the future of smart reefing. This is the safest way to run a reef and protect your investment.

There are a whole bunch of biologically active trace elements that I'd likely measure and dose which I did not in the past, but which previously tested low in my system (e.g., molybdenum) and I'd likely dose these to roughly NSW levels.

Which of your other elements were low besides Moly? Which would you consider dosing this time around excluding Iron and Silicates.


I think you’re on the right track here Randy. If elements are being consumed or coming back depleted, it just makes sense to correct what the system is using unless negative effects are being detected or observed. For me, if Alkalinity consumption continues as normal or increases, it’s not harmful to the system. Alk consumption is so sensitive that merely turkey basting your rocks can temporarily stop it.


I’d love to see you start up another system (nothing big that’s a PITA to deal with). I really enjoy my 105/G 48x24x20. The only thing I would have done differently is go 24” tall instead of 20” tall. It’s difficult to deliver the flow in these shorter tanks.

I’d like to share with you (and others interested) some safe dosing decisions based on sensitivity for the analysis used. This is an updated version of the pic collage pics I posted earlier in this thread. It gives you and idea of why I’m always recommending ICP-MS vs ICP-OES.

I want everyone here to have a happy reef. For me this starts with water chemistry, and using the “current” most accurate ICP analysis we have available. I believe that is OCEAMO ICP-MS for me. I don’t get a dime. I can promise you that. I’m not sponsored by anybody. I’m just another hobbyist in pursuit of large beautiful colonies trying to make it there the quickest way I know how. Before I switched from ATI-OES you better believe I was skeptical and watching those analyses come in. I was watching those ultra trace elements. One day Andre sent me at least 10 of his ICP-MS analyses. I combed through them looking at any differences, and what I observed is exactly what you see above. There’s about 6-9 elements that just aren’t reliable to make corrections on with any ICP-OES. I have looked at the “LLOD’s” that some have listed on their websites. They’re not accurate. I’ve seen it over and over again. You could try with about 3 of them, but it’s risky. I don’t like risks with my acro’s, so I’m glad to have moved to MS. With the ATI-OES we were keeping many of these elements undetected, because we had no choice. It was too risky to let them become detected, because many would already be overdosed. It always bothered me, because I desperately wanted to target those elements. I saw people in the group disregard warnings, and some problems started to arise for those that did. When I saw that, I never let mine become detectable. I always kept the primary 6 undetectable, and the other 3 that fall on the border I would let those become just barely detectable (not that smart looking back), because the sensitivity wasn’t very good. With ICP-MS this changed the whole situation. We can target all these elements accurately. I’m only telling you from what I’ve observed in my own reef from my own ICP-MS analyses. There is no doubt in my mind. These elements can easily be targeted down to 0.2 ug/L or lower. As I mentioned earlier, I only need 0.26 ug/L for my (lowest range) for 1 Metallic. As I’m dialing these elements up into the middle/upper target ranges, the colors, keep getting better and better. One thing I want to mention about the Reef Moonshiner’s method since we typically don’t do water changes…keep a close eye on those 6-9 elements to make sure they aren’t becoming depleted. The deplete quickly in a fast growing Acropora system. I can’t speak too much for LPS or softie systems. After my tank really started growing, I noticed color was dropping off, because those elements were becoming depleted as consumption increased. It was about that time when I switched over to ICP-MS. I literally watched the colors just keep getting better and better as I slowly brought those elements into target ranges, so I know for an absolute fact that those 6-9 elements were playing a key role with color, and also light protection. Some corals were starting to look light stressed beforehand. A month later, they looked completely different.

Water changes can be one way to do it if you know what’s in the salt in the first place, and the volume being changed is enough to replace the elements. However, there is not enough precision or control with water changes for me personally. This is why I have chosen the Reef Moonshiner’s method, because it is the easiest and
most precise way for me to get all the elements into target ranges. I love precision, and the ability to “individually” stop any element that is being overdosed. I like the ability to “individually” increase any element that is being under-dosed. I like the simplicity of using the tools.

 

[Reefahholic]

I'm interested. Where is this form at ?

What form are you referring to?

 

[Reefahholic]

 

[penguinexdeus]

So I started moonshiners about a month ago and here's my story - my tank was doing ok, things were growing and had some color. I had previously been using ATI ICP tests just to kind of get a feel for where I was and accuracy of my test kits. Tried a lot of different ICP tests and sometimes compared side by side, but felt like I like ATI best. When things outside alk, cal, mag came back low or high id try to do a larger water change. After multiple ICP tests there was always something off. So I started to try and dose some things that always seemed low like iodine, but couldn't get a good handle on how much.

I knew of moonshiners and triton methods but honestly couldn't and still can't tell you how they're different. To me your dosing the individual elements based on the ICP tests and the moonshiner book/ spreadsheet was a free download. I already had the ICP tests done and was planning on continuing that so for me it was just acting on the ICP results. I did go for the MS test as well.

In reality there's only a few daily things to dose which I have hooked up to a doser. Except for the ones I add a drop a day. I did my corrections and put the leftover elements of those away after finishing their regiments. I'll be sending out my first post moonshine test this week. The initial results in the calculator threw me off because my ICP test results looked good but calculator said I was deficient in areas. I decided to trust in the method for where they recommend values be and glad I did - the past month I've seen a significant increase in growth on everything. A few more colors showed up and a lot more polyp extension on some things also (namely my gonis). Nothing has died and a few things worse for wear have started to recover. So far I've been pleased and it's worth the cost. And I don't expect to have to buy more elements for a while. Spreadsheet makes it easy to know what and how much to dose. If you feel something isn't beneficial, there's no need to dose it and some things like rubidium are clearly described as optional. I had heard good things so I decided to go the full recommendation.

Downsides so far have been costs - for me about $300 in starting elements, but that was also almost 1 bottle of everything. Plus additional costs because I bought some graduated cylinders and reagent bottles/ droppers from Amazon. But cost is also something very personal for how much someone is willing to spend on their reef when there are acros out there that cost hundreds an inch... And corals in my tank range from $5 to $500. And I've lost $300 acro overnight on more than one occasion.

Also the method kind of locks you into specific element brands. It's kind of expected going in that you'll go with moonshine brand for most, but for example I had Lugol's iodine but the calculator/ method uses seachem. I'm sure triton does the same. And it also makes me think about what else I may be or had been dosing. All those KZ products I have that "boost color" or "increase coral recovery" - without knowing if it adds any specific elements - it's a bit risky to dose if you're correcting those. So I've had to back off on flatworm stop and some other products for now unless I know it was just aminos/ vitamins. So additional cost if I have a shelf full of possible non usable products (which I'll just use in a non moonshine tank later probably).

Overall if your interested in one of these 'methods' or think it's time to try one for whatever reason - doesn't hurt to download the free tools and do an ICP test. Can plug in numbers and see what it recommends even if you don't act on it or only act on part of it.

 

[Reefahholic]

Overall if your interested in one of these 'methods' or think it's time to try one for whatever reason - doesn't hurt to download the free tools and do an ICP test. Can plug in numbers and see what it recommends even if you don't act on it or only act on part of it.

Exactly. Here’s how simple it is:

 

[Reefahholic]

Also the method kind of locks you into specific element brands. It's kind of expected going in that you'll go with moonshine brand for most, but for example I had Lugol's iodine but the calculator/ method uses seachem. I'm sure triton does the same.

You don’t have to use Seachem or Brightwell, but you’ll need to do your own dosage calculations. For some it’s no problem. No method is going to give you guidance on multiple products. Most can’t put in the time to program their dosing calculators to be able to calculate several products on the market. A lot products have unknown proprietary potencies.

We follow Andre’s method, because he’s having much more success than the average reefer. So we try to stick with what he recommends or has confidence in so we can appreciate the same success that he has.

The Reef Diesyst calculator is able to do several different products. Too bad it doesn’t have all the different trace elements on it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Which of your other elements were low besides Moly? Which would you consider dosing this time around excluding Iron and Silicates.

Based on a single ICP from Triton, these are the possibly useful elements that were potentially low (undetectable unless noted) in my system, but bear in mind that at the time, Triton could just barely detect the natural levels of some of these, and some, like iron, they could not detect natural levels.

copper
selenium
strontium was 5.6 ppm, slightly low, but I don't consider it useful
nickel
molybdenum 2.6 ppb
vanadium
manganese
iodine 0.02 ppm
chromium
cobalt
iron (despite dosing)
silicate 56 ppb (despite dosing)

I discuss possible issues around these values here:

My Triton Testing Results: By Randy Holmes-Farley - REEFEDITION

Recently, Triton GmbH in Germany has initiated a method of testing many ions at once for a single price. In the US, that service is coordinated by Unique Corals. For $49 they will send you a couple of tubes to collect a tank water sample, and a prepaid mailer to send the sample back to them...

www.reefedition.com

 

[Tha Reefer]

What form are you referring to?

You said there was a place were people Share there experiences with and some one was available 7 days a week for questions. I believe this was a Facebook group that was referred ?

 

[Reefahholic]

Based on a single ICP from Triton, these are the possibly useful elements that were potentially low (undetectable unless noted) in my system, but bear in mind that at the time, Triton could just barely detect the natural levels of some of these, and some, like iron, they could not detect natural levels.

copper
selenium
strontium was 5.6 ppm, slightly low, but I don't consider it useful
nickel
molybdenum 2.6 ppb
vanadium
manganese
iodine 0.02 ppm
chromium
cobalt
iron (despite dosing)
silicate 56 ppb (despite dosing)

I discuss possible issues around these values here:

My Triton Testing Results: By Randy Holmes-Farley - REEFEDITION

Recently, Triton GmbH in Germany has initiated a method of testing many ions at once for a single price. In the US, that service is coordinated by Unique Corals. For $49 they will send you a couple of tubes to collect a tank water sample, and a prepaid mailer to send the sample back to them...

www.reefedition.com

Sounds very accurate Randy. Typically what we see also.

Copper
Selenium
Manganese
Iron
Cobalt
Chromium
Nickel
Zinc
Vanadium

^^^ I dose all these daily. Most are low or depleted if not supplemented in some way.

Vanadium recently became elevated so I stopped it. Could be something leaching it. The last two analyses it hasn’t come down much. IDK.

Nickel and Zinc where always low and then started to become depleted so I’ve been dosing those as dailies for months now.

Iodine is almost always very low or depleted in a growing system. I’m trying to target 75-95 ug/L. We were targeting a little lower but I’ve seen several peoples iodine levels come back north of 500 with beautiful acros. One guy even targeted like 200 or so and his tank is stunning. I found that shocking at first. This was a trend he sent me.

Not one acro was harmed over that period and they all look stunning. I’ve seen higher than that also. Notice that this trend was back when we were still using ATI-OES. I know because I can see all the dailies are mostly undetectable.



My Silicate was higher in the beginning and I used a silicate buster. It started to come back at 80 so I eventually removed it. I like it higher and feel it has some nice benefits for the sponges and I also saw when I dose it the turf alage I had at the time turned bright green (didn’t grow more or get out of control), so it’s beneficial for something.


Speaking of Iron….my tank sucks that up like a sponge (I don’t have any algae so it’s either the corals and maybe the Dino’s are using it but they’re basically gone now) so I’m convinced it’s useful. Basically all those Metallic’s at the top are being consumed rapidly in a growing system. Those who are doing water changes you might find if you’re doing large volume changes that a lot of elements will be added back, but those 9 elements at the top along with iodide are gonna deplete rapidly (2-3 days) for many of them. I’d definitely be looking at those specific elements.

Strontium and Potassium I’m correcting monthly, but potassium seems to be more consumed. So I consider strontium important, but less important of the two. Anything being used I supplement back.

 

[Reefahholic]

You said there was a place were people Share there experiences with and some one was available 7 days a week for questions. I believe this was a Facebook group that was referred ?

Send me a PM on Facebook and I’ll add you to the group. “Reefahholic Houston”

Anybody is welcome to come hang out and observe. You’ll see a lot of ICP’s I can tell you that. We have a lot of smart folks who can help with issues. Several pros in the group, some Coral Farms, LFS, etc.

 

[Reefahholic]

One thing I also want to show is this. This is a typical first ICP-MS. Yes, this is an actual first MS analysis after transitioning to ICP-MS. Almost single “daily” element or what I’ve been referring to as Ultra Trace or Metallic’s (Excluding Iodine) is low according to where we keep Moonshine levels. These elements are basically those that have a target range that falls under 1 ug/L, and are becoming depleted quite rapidly which is why we refer to them as “dailies” because we dose them daily to keep these elements available 24/7. They are all detected below on ICP-MS, but on the OES, all these ultra trace are coming back ZERO. The problem I had at the end before moving to MS that I explained above in this thread was that my corals were just becoming quite pale as consumption increased and the tank was tanking off. So for me and what I’ve observed, it’s very important to keep these elements not only detected as you see on the MS, but also at the mid- to upper range of what OCEAMO would recommend (Moonshine targets are all basically higher), because my colors didn’t start coming back good until I hit that middle OCEAMO target range. Within one week I could already see a slight difference, but as I kept dosing and dialing those elements up it was night and day. I only tell you this because it’s the truth. The nubs on the Miyagi tort and other corals were starting to really take off and grow after getting those elements up.

ICP-MS

ICP-OES

Also notice Zinc is detectable because look at the chart below. It’s one of those elements that falls at the border basically, but I still don’t trust the accuracy on OES.

 

[Coinzmans Reef]

I think you’re on the right track here Randy. If elements are being consumed or coming back depleted, it just makes sense to correct what the system is using unless negative effects are being detected or observed. For me, if Alkalinity consumption continues as normal or increases, it’s not harmful to the system. Alk consumption is so sensitive that merely turkey basting your rocks can temporarily stop it.

Can you please explain ?

Now and than My ALK consumption shuts off / slows down greatly. I baste almost once a week, sometimes a little and sometimes three or four times a day when I run the Diatom filter about twice a month.

 

[Reefahholic]

Can you please explain ?

Now and than My ALK consumption shuts off / slows down greatly. I baste almost once a week, sometimes a little and sometimes three or four times a day when I run the Diatom filter about twice a month.

Basting the rocks is basically a small destabilizing event. All these guys will auto testers like Alkatronic will tell you. It won’t stop it for long, but you definitely notice it. I test a lot so I’ve seen it several times.

Every water change you do will typically cause the same effect, but it’s more aggressive. That is why if you’re doing water changes IMO it’s best to do auto-water changes so that only a small amount it removed daily or more frequently rather than 10%+ Weekly or 20%+ biweekly. If you look up at what Randy said…that is how he said he would perform his.

I'd probably do automatic water changes, but again, might also experiment on the amount, from none to a couple of percent a day.

Some of the best tanks I’ve seen is because the reefer is lazy. They don’t get into the tank a lot and the stability grows the corals. I was talking to a guy recently that has some 30-36” colonies and he said…”I don’t know why everybody freaks out about detritus, I have 30#’s down in my sump.” Lol

Another reefer on YouTube that had massive colonies wouldn’t respond to anybody in his comments for years. He just upload those insane massive colonies. I kept commenting for like 3 years or so even though he had never responded to anybody’s comments. I kept saying what is your secret I love your system. I wanna say he was in Russia or Germany somewhere over there. One day he says 5 words. Never heard from him again!

“NEVER CHANGE A RUNNING SYSTEM.”

 

[jda]

So what is the plan if it becomes apparent that Oceamo is a joke, like nearly every other reefing company? I am not saying that they are, only that if they are not, they are in a super-small minority. They are mostly a black box. The few that have checked their results against other see big discrepancies. Why should anybody put more faith in them than they have other companies who have let hobbyists down? As Dr. Joshi points out, there is no evidence that anything that they produce is accurate, nor the other companies.

Is reliance a too much of a leap of faith? Everybody please consider that this could just be a fad to trust ICP in totality.

 

[jda]

I am not trying to be a jerk, but there are threads just like this one with Moonshiners for Kent Elements, live phyto, oyster eggs, acropower, coral snow, etc. where people have had super awesome experiences dosing them and their tanks get better... and then the enthusiasm wanes and tanks do just fine without. Folks find out that it was any method that worked and not this method - the focus is what mattered.

...anyway, just something to keep in mind.

 

[Miami Reef]

This is the most intelligent thing I’ve heard Randy say in this thread.

This comment rubbed me the wrong way tbh. I don’t think it sounds very respectful.