blacktippr
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I guess I was wrong, nothing on the website about phosphates but if the blocks didn't do it what did. Nitrates definitely took a huge plunge from 15 pppm down to under 2.
I used the 8x8x4 blocks
Nutrient control question......
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I used the 8x8x4 blocks
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Gwitness
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I'm not sure why you observed what you did, but in general, I would not expect large phosphate reductions to follow (especially long term) from the use of Marinepure blocks.
Nitrifying bacteria convert ammonia into nitrate (via nitrite). Like any living organism, if they increase tissue mass they will take up phosphate somehow. But adding a substrate for bacteria is unlikely to alter the tissue mass of nitrifying bacteria noticeably since in reef tanks it is already running pretty much fulls team ahead (since there is rarely any appreciable excess of ammonia). I do agree that if the role is to reduce live rock amounts, this sort of product will serve that need for a nitrifying bacteria substrate.
Denitrifying bacteria convert nitrate into N2. Like nitrifiers, if they increase tissue mass they will take up phosphate somehow. But they use disproportionally more N than P by a wide margin since they are using nitrate both as a source of N atoms for their tissues, and also as an electron acceptor in place of O2, and that extra N disappears as N2.
So when denitrification is an important process (either with something like these blocks, which use natural organics in the water, or when the process is driven by adding organic carbon), the system is often left with extra phosphate that folks usually have to deal with other ways. That is why products like GFO are often used along with organic carbon dosing.
If you read through the MarinePure Cermedia product literature, they focus exclusively on the nitrogen cycle bacteria mentioned above, without mention of phosphate that I have seen.
http://www.cermedia.com/marinepure-technical.php
So is this kinda like bio pellets or something but you just don't have to replace it?? If I did add a block or two for nitrates and place for bacteria to grow I guess that would significantly decrease my dosage of vinegar than right?
Randy Holmes-Farley
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It is just a suitable place for bacteria to grow. It still requires organics, just like live rock pores and sand beds do to accomplish the same thing, but it relies on organics naturally present in the water (or ones you add if you choose). For that reason, it may not always reduce nitrate effectively depending on the amounts of nitrate and organics present (or being fed), but many people find them to work well.
I'd think of it like a very compact deep sand bed without any creatures larger than bacteria.
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I do not know, but the aluminum silicate material may initially act as a phosphate binder to some extent, possibly giving it a one time burst of phosphate lowering capacity.
Also, if aluminum is released, that can certainly bind some phosphate.
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Gwitness
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Okay so really if I did get a couple of these blocks it would help out for filtration, but I would still have to dose the vinegar then....so essentially it's jut adding in more "live rock"....it might take my vinegar dosage down some but not muchIt is just a suitable place for bacteria to grow. It still requires organics, just like live rock pores and sand beds do to accomplish the same thing, but it relies on organics naturally present in the water (or ones you add if you choose). For that reason, it may not always reduce nitrate effectively depending on the amounts of nitrate and organics present (or being fed), but many people find them to work well.
I'd think of it like a very compact deep sand bed without any creatures larger than bacteria.
WetWhistle
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It is well worth running the basics to deal with your nutrient export. I keep my filtration simple and don't use may products. I rely on my live rock, macroalgae in refugia, skimmer and water changes to keep my tank clean. I do spot kill algae if it pops up. I dose very little products besides Calk, Alk and mag and they are the only things I use on a regular basis. I do use some carbon as I have a huge leather coral in my Sps dominant mixed reef and it doesn't always play nice with my SPS if I don't.
I have messed around over the years with all the products and different ways of processing waste, but I always come back to the basics. I find it easy to troubleshoot because I put very little into my tank and I have less problems because I use so little and as a bonus it is cheaper. I add my kalk into my ATO top up water for my alk and calcium needs and this helps participate some phosphates out of the water. I do use natural methods like lots of live rock, a good layer of crushed coral, macroalgae and corals to use up my nutrients. I mix in corals that use nutrient uptake as a main feeding mechanism like mushrooms, soft corals and sponges to help process waste. I harvest macroalgae monthly and sometimes mushrooms if they grow to fast.
I designed my sump with live rock in it and to have a nutrient gradient system setup, so I have different processing zones and this helps prosess my wastes and to foster the food web. I included a criptic zone that has reduced light to help foster dark loving organisms called cryptofauna like sponges and sea squirts. This filtration concept utilizes the cryptofauna to process waste and they are well suited to process and consume dissolved organics and bacteria as a food source. If you want to read up on this type of Environmental gradient style filtration see the link below. I have been running things this way for decades with no issues. Algae does pop up from time to time and you do have to spot remove but this is not often. Especially if you process anything new coming into the tank properly.
http://www.dynamicecomorphology.com/getzoned.htm
My tank has a really really heavy bio load and this way easily keeps up with processing waste. Side note as my tank got older it was able to process waste but it was not as efficiant when young and it needed a little help at first. When it was first set up and the refugium was new I did test out carbon dosing and GFO but as the tank aged and matured I didn't need it and they caused more problems then it was worth so i shut them down. My corals hated GFO when I was using it and my growth was nothing like it is now.
I have messed around over the years with all the products and different ways of processing waste, but I always come back to the basics. I find it easy to troubleshoot because I put very little into my tank and I have less problems because I use so little and as a bonus it is cheaper. I add my kalk into my ATO top up water for my alk and calcium needs and this helps participate some phosphates out of the water. I do use natural methods like lots of live rock, a good layer of crushed coral, macroalgae and corals to use up my nutrients. I mix in corals that use nutrient uptake as a main feeding mechanism like mushrooms, soft corals and sponges to help process waste. I harvest macroalgae monthly and sometimes mushrooms if they grow to fast.
I designed my sump with live rock in it and to have a nutrient gradient system setup, so I have different processing zones and this helps prosess my wastes and to foster the food web. I included a criptic zone that has reduced light to help foster dark loving organisms called cryptofauna like sponges and sea squirts. This filtration concept utilizes the cryptofauna to process waste and they are well suited to process and consume dissolved organics and bacteria as a food source. If you want to read up on this type of Environmental gradient style filtration see the link below. I have been running things this way for decades with no issues. Algae does pop up from time to time and you do have to spot remove but this is not often. Especially if you process anything new coming into the tank properly.
http://www.dynamicecomorphology.com/getzoned.htm
My tank has a really really heavy bio load and this way easily keeps up with processing waste. Side note as my tank got older it was able to process waste but it was not as efficiant when young and it needed a little help at first. When it was first set up and the refugium was new I did test out carbon dosing and GFO but as the tank aged and matured I didn't need it and they caused more problems then it was worth so i shut them down. My corals hated GFO when I was using it and my growth was nothing like it is now.
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Gwitness
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That sounds like what I would love to run on mine, just as little as possible and basic stuff but my sump is only a 40 breeder and if I do set up a refugium on it, it won't be big enough to do anything for my tank....I guess if the sponge thing is equivalent to adding live rock I will probably add 2 of them just to see what happens....I mean it can't hurt! Unless it releases aluminum like randy said it might do, then Obviously wouldn't be good
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The blocks may well help to reduce nitrate even with no extra organic carbon dosing. Just like a deep sand bed. And if it is not enough, organic dosing will spur it along.
But the trade off may be the released aluminum.
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Gwitness
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Makes sense....so if I do get 2 of these blocks should I slowly drop 10 ml a week off of my vinegar dosing or should drop it quicker than that? I guess it takes a couple of weeks to get bacteria going on the blocks so maybe dropping vinegar 10 or 20 ml per week would work and then once blocks are established I can add vinegar as needed.....what do you think?
Randy Holmes-Farley
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That sounds like a fine thing to try, dropping back the vinegar over a couple of weeks.
Be careful you don't reduce nitrate too far. That seems to be as problematic as having it elevated.
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Gwitness
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Yeah good point....maybe just add one block for a month or so and then add another if needed
WetWhistle
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If you use a lot of products and decide to stop using them take your time taking them off. You don't want to stop using everything all at once and cause a problem. In time you will learn the balance of input and export in this style of system. This type of system you do notice changes pretty quickly for nutrient load so if say you overfeed one day you will notice a slight increase of algae growth on the glass. You just need to watch your tank for any changes and take things slow. Learn to tell what your tank is telling you by watching your corals. In time once it has been set up and running and has gotten to a point that it is in equilibrium and built up the cryptofauna it will be at a balanced stage and can handle ups and downs easily. Any algae outbreaks are usually cleaned up by the food web organisms\ cryptofauna as they will bloom and die off according to the food supply. You should not expect right away that it will easily handle nutrients as it needs time to build up the needed bacteria, cryptofauna and algae eaters to process waste and algae. I actually have no idea what my nitrate and phosphates are as I don't test unless I have an issue. Which is not very often. (I don't recommend not testing unless you have years of experience like I do.)
If you do go this route set the sump up first with the cryptic zone and let it get up and running before taking off to may products. You can break the sump down into compartments. So top portion of the water column is macroalgae and underneath is cryptic zone. I use the egg grate for lights and put them on some PVC posts and lay it flat so the algae is growing about the grate and is shading the lower portion of the tank. Then under the grate you can add your pieces of liverock. Or you can black out the sump and use the entire thing or attach a separate blacked out tank off the sump and run it in tangent. It is up to you what best works for you.
Whatever you end up doing give it some time to mature as this way is not a quick fix but a long term way of dealing and processing your tank. Just don't expect to take everything off and have it work fully. My last reef was set up for over 10 years with this style of maintaining a system with no issues over long term. Not even old tank syndrome that some tanks have after being set up for years. Just my 2 cents on how i do it.
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Gwitness
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That's the annoying part!! My sps haven't looked better! Haha I just have brown sand and brown crap growing on my rocks! Haha phosphates read 0.05 the other day using Hannah and nitrates still at 2.5....still gotta get numbers down a little more to maybe end whatever it is I have
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Gwitness
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Just bought 1 of the 8x8x4 pad....question how is it not like a sponge and just collect detritus and crap and become a nitrate factory?? Obviously it does the complete opposite and helps with nitrates and filtration but I'm just curious what's he difference between that and having a sponge in my tank haha
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Gwitness
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Hey randy! The nitrates are finally and I mean finally getting lower than 2 now!!! They read 0 but I'm assuming they aren't 0, but i dropped my vinegar dosage from 100 to 90 ml.....
Also, with that 8x8 block thing for bacteria to grow....I have a question ....why is that block an area for bacteria to grow in, but if I have a sponge in the sump or overflow it's considered a nitrate factory and collects crap in it?? What's the difference between the 2?
blacktippr
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Mine does not collect any detritus where it sits, alsoi dont have any light, they are in total darkness, so they look as they came out the box 3 monts ago.
blacktippr
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What test kit are you measuring with? Mine do not collect any detritus where they sit, also dont have any lights on them, they are in total darkness so that might eexplain why they look the same as when out of the box even that its been about 3 months since introduced.
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Gwitness
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I use salifert for testing but I'm just confused on why it's not good to have a sponge in the tank since it will be a nitrate factory if not cleaned but this product that houses the bacteria doesn't need cleaned?? I ordered one since reviews seem to be great and it can't hurt at all but my question is just out of curiosity?? Like what makes his block different than me putting a sponge in my tank to house bacteria?
blacktippr
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Im not sure if you where able to colonize that block this fast to actually lower your nutrients in less than a week, it worked fast for me in about a month, but i think you are less than a week with it?
Im glad you are making progress just make sure everything is not 0.
As to your question, this block is like live rock, just more porous and has a lot more surface area than live rock so less is more (thats what manufacturer states) Filter pads and socks trap detritus that will break down given a couple of days and will leach nutrients into your tqank, I believe Randy could explain further. Filter fads and socks must be cleaned every couple of days to prevent this.
I have a filter pad coming out of my refugium that rarely sees a cleaning, It has not caused any issues yet, maybe the amount of Nitrification/denitrification by the Marine Pure,Rocks and Macroalgae offsets the effects of the dirty pad.
im glad my recommendation to add the MarinePure has helped you if it really is what lowered your nutrients so fast, but beware that being at 0 nutrients as some people suggests could be detrimental to the tank, I would suggest to be around 1-2ppm nitate and phosphates .02-.08(Im no expert either) but My SPS, LPS and soft corals look good at that Range anything less and they take a beating. Also Alkalinity is important to monitor and keep low at thos really low nutrient numbers. Most people suggest around 7-8 at less than 1ppm nitrates .
Do your own research, but I believe corals also need fuel for their bodies in the form of some amount of nutrients N+P, now lets wait for the Experts to chime in.
