Parwise

[Erasmus Crowley]

So, right now I'm thinking I got the tuna and it's just misrepresented in the spectrum.

Ohh. I didn't see this part before.

I think you paid for a "Tuna Blue" bulb, and you got the correct packaging for a "Tuna Blue" bulb, but somehow, a "Blue and White" bulb was inside your box.

I can see a couple ways that might have happened.

Either it was a mistake that happened at the factory, or someone bought one of each color of bulb, then opened them both and put them in the wrong boxes, and then returned them to Amazon. And then Amazon sold the used box to you as a new item.

The spectrum you measured looks so close to the "Blue and White", and so far away from "Tuna Blue", that I can't bring myself to believe that this is the actual "Tuna Blue" bulb that they're sending people.

 

[Dburr1014]

Ohh. I didn't see this part before.

I think you paid for a "Tuna Blue" bulb, and you got the correct packaging for a "Tuna Blue" bulb, but somehow, a "Blue and White" bulb was inside your box.

I can see a couple ways that might have happened.

Either it was a mistake that happened at the factory, or someone bought one of each color of bulb, then opened them both and put them in the wrong boxes, and then returned them to Amazon. And then Amazon sold the used box to you as a new item.

The spectrum you measured looks so close to the "Blue and White", and so far away from "Tuna Blue", that I can't bring myself to believe that this is the actual "Tuna Blue" bulb that they're sending people.

I'll update when I get home.

 

[Dburr1014]

Took a picture of the light, it's not easy. LOL


Light plain and light with coffee filter.
There picture.
To be completely honest, the LEDs look like their picture set up in the same formation with the same colors.
I went back and forth with the vendor and he believes that their tuna blue should be the correct Spectrum and maybe I did get the wrong light.
It is quite possible that the light on the vendors website is not truly what the light is, it could just be a stock light picture.
So I'm going to return the light and see what I get the second time around.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

I'm very confused now. Those photos definitely appear to be the real "Tuna Blue" bulb.

I found a thread where Dana Riddle tested this bulb with a Ocean Optics spectrometer, and the spectrum that he measured looks like the reference spectrum that I posted.

Which brings me back to my original question I guess.... Did they change to a different 490-495nm diode that isn't actually emitting in that range anymore? Or is the PARwise not able to measure or graph cyan as well as the Ocean Optics spectrometer did?

Spectrum as measured by Dana Riddle:

The manufacturer's reference spectrum:

EDIT: I wrongly stated that Dana used a Seneye, but he actually used an Ocean Optics spectrometer, so I modified my post.

EDIT 2: Adding the photo of the graphed spectrum taken by Dburr1014 for reference.

This doesn't look at all like the others. The 480nm to 500nm range is just ... gone.

 

[Dburr1014]

I'm very confused now. Those photos definitely appear to be the real "Tuna Blue" bulb.

I found a thread where Dana Riddle tested this bulb with a Ocean Optics spectrometer, and the spectrum that he measured looks like the reference spectrum that I posted.

Which brings me back to my original question I guess.... Did they change to a different 490-495nm diode that isn't actually emitting in that range anymore? Or is the PARwise not able to measure or graph cyan as well as the Ocean Optics spectrometer did?

Spectrum as measured by Dana Riddle:

The manufacturer's reference spectrum:

EDIT: I wrongly stated that Dana used a Seneye, but he actually used an Ocean Optics spectrometer, so I modified my post.

EDIT 2: Adding the photo of the graphed spectrum taken by Dburr1014 for reference.

This doesn't look at all like the others. The 480nm to 500nm range is just ... gone.

I don't know.
The picture that the vendor used may or may not be the actual bulb. They could have used any random bulb for the picture and put it on all there different bulb sales.
But the fact of the matter is you are right, the Spectrum I got does not match the Spectrum that they say it should be or what Dana riddle said it should be. So I'm trying a new bulb. I'm going to get a credit in order a new one and see what that Spectrum comes out to be.

 

[Jeffbear]

I just received my PARWise and tested it in a few areas. The before levels were set using an Apogee 510.
Pocillopora - apogee reading was 250
TFC Fuzzy - apogee reading was 290
Oregon Tort - apogee reading was 209

First, quality device! Thick cord, great sealed case. The coral graphic is pretty trick. The set up was simple. Plug it in, press connect on the web app and boom. Here are some before and after of my kessil 360x and AI blade set up over my RedSea 170. It's a mixed reef so I'm inching up on the proper lighting for the sps at the top.

It's nice to see my color is bang on where I thought it was.

 

[spsick]

I guess what I’m wondering is if the PARwise reads a bit lower than Apogee so what? Most anyone that has set guidelines for specific corals or listed their PAR did so using an Apogee.

To me that means sure maybe our corals were getting less light than we thought but also that our corals needed less light than we thought, right?

 

[Hooz]

I mean, it only makes sense that PARwise would read lower than an Apogee if the PARwise ignores light below 400nm and above 700nm that the Apogee does NOT ignore.

How much lower would be determined by how much light above or below those ranges that your light is putting out.

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

I'm starting to not like the spectral graph at all. Every reading I see peaks at 447,448,449 something right there and everything looks the same except a little UV difference which it isn't even supposed to read.

I think the par is correct on the PARwise, but I'm beginning to wonder about the accuracy of the spectrum.

Maybe it's just all the LEDs are heavy blue these days.

 

[ConsummatePro]

I'm starting to not like the spectral graph at all. Every reading I see peaks at 447,448,449 something right there and everything looks the same except a little UV difference which it isn't even supposed to read.

I think the par is correct on the PARwise, but I'm beginning to wonder about the accuracy of the spectrum.

Maybe it's just all the LEDs are heavy blue these days.

But wouldn't that just mean the LEDs manufacturers use basically output those wavelengths, and that's why they're selected? There probably aren't that many variations in the actual LEDs (and spectrum) companies use: what differs is their choice of mix and their design for clustering and optics.

Unless I'm misreading your dislike of the spectral graph: are you saying that it probably won't be that useful in the end since most companies will use these LEDs thus all put out similar spectra? Or are you worried the PARwise is misrepresenting the spectrum?

It seems to be real to my untrained eye: the graph changes in real time as I change light sources, or change the LED channels on my Neptune Sky lights. The spectral measurement I got from my Skys looked a lot like the screenshot I took from the BRS PUR video with that expensive spectrometer. The fact that I can see a truly full spectrum (the whole graph lights up) when exposed to real sunlight outside suggests to me the device does report a "real" spectrum. My DIY regugium light has 2 different LEDs and the PARWise showed exactly 2 spikes in spectrum. My table lamp shows a very warmer spectrum than my aquarium light. These all suggest to me it's reading and reporting something that reflects reality.

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

But wouldn't that just mean the LEDs manufacturers use basically output those wavelengths, and that's why they're selected? There probably aren't that many variations in the actual LEDs (and spectrum) companies use: what differs is their choice of mix and their design for clustering and optics.

Unless I'm misreading your dislike of the spectral graph: are you saying that it probably won't be that useful in the end since most companies will use these LEDs thus all put out similar spectra? Or are you worried the PARwise is misrepresenting the spectrum?

It seems to be real to my untrained eye: the graph changes in real time as I change light sources, or change the LED channels on my Neptune Sky lights. The spectral measurement I got from my Skys looked a lot like the screenshot I took from the BRS PUR video with that expensive spectrometer. The fact that I can see a truly full spectrum (the whole graph lights up) when exposed to real sunlight outside suggests to me the device does report a "real" spectrum. My DIY regugium light has 2 different LEDs and the PARWise showed exactly 2 spikes in spectrum. My table lamp shows a very warmer spectrum than my aquarium light. These all suggest to me it's reading and reporting something that reflects reality.

I'm saying that I'm wondering if it is accurate at all. Let me give you an example.

250w MH using 14k Hamilton DE bulb. 18 inches under water, 11 inches above water.

Illumagic Blaze X 90 dual fixture LEDs with 0 white and blues and UV channels turned to 100%. 18 inches under water and fixtures 11 inches above water.

Same as above, Illumagic Blaze 80% white 100% Blues, 100% UV channel.

See a pattern? However what I do see is that the LED has a broader spectrum in the UV, Blue, Green channels. So I see a width of spectrum change, but color peak is about the same.

 

[ConsummatePro]

I'm saying that I'm wondering if it is accurate at all. Let me give you an example.

250w MH using 14k Hamilton DE bulb. 18 inches under water, 11 inches above water.

Illumagic Blaze X 90 dual fixture LEDs with 0 white and blues and UV channels turned to 100%. 18 inches under water and fixtures 11 inches above water.

Same as above, Illumagic Blaze 80% white 100% Blues, 100% UV channel.

See a pattern? However what I do see is that the LED has a broader spectrum in the UV, Blue, Green channels. So I see a width of spectrum change, but color peak is about the same.

Can you try the same fixture with just the whites on, and the blue and UV turned to zero?

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

Can you try the same fixture with just the whites on, and the blue and UV turned to zero?

Yes, I have and I don't remember a big difference, but I can check again in the next couple of days. I did think of that and did it and I think that's what made me question it.

I also found a spectral graph of a 14k MH Phoenix bulb and it peaks at 450nm. So maybe it is correct. I'll run those tests tomorrow or the next day.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

I wonder if someone would be willing to take one for the team and do an experiment?

I'm thinking that it wouldn't be too expensive to buy a reasonably large assortment of narrow band 1w or 3w LEDs from a reliable manufacturer, where each of the LEDs are of a known spectrum. Then use a tiny LED driver to power just one single LED at a time in a dark room. That way you can use the PARwise to measure the spectrum shown on the graph and compare the peak to the manufacturer's specifications for each specific LED.

Theoretically, each LED will be converting the same amount of power into a narrow band of spectrum, so each spike should be about the same height on the PARWise spectrum chart as you work your way through the rainbow.

Then maybe run various narrow band LEDs side-by-side with the 450nm blue LED of equal power consumption and see if the PARWise reports them as having equal representation in the graph?

To be fair, electricity is not my forte, so maybe there are pitfalls here that I'm not aware of.

 

[oreo54]

I wonder if someone would be willing to take one for the team and do an experiment?

I'm thinking that it wouldn't be too expensive to buy a reasonably large assortment of narrow band 1w or 3w LEDs from a reliable manufacturer, where each of the LEDs are of a known spectrum. Then use a tiny LED driver to power just one single LED at a time in a dark room. That way you can use the PARwise to measure the spectrum shown on the graph and compare the peak to the manufacturer's specifications for each specific LED.

Theoretically, each LED will be converting the same amount of power into a narrow band of spectrum, so each spike should be about the same height on the PARWise spectrum chart as you work your way through the rainbow.

Then maybe run various narrow band LEDs side-by-side with the 450nm blue LED of equal power consumption and see if the PARWise reports them as having equal representation in the graph?

To be fair, electricity is not my forte, so maybe there are pitfalls here that I'm not aware of.

Mystery Box of LEDs-360

www.stevesleds.com

$5.. add an ldd-hw and a power supply.
350mA would be fine.
Ps can usually be scavenged from thrift stores. 9V or more switching ps..

OR

4 - 1W LED driver

www.stevesleds.com

They don't list the minimum voltage so may not power a single red diode but 2 in series should be fine.

 

[ITCreefculture]

Hey Guys

Just to weigh in on the spectrum,

I think I all manufacturers are making product that is trying to hit the blue peaks required for all the major chlorophylls so it’s not surprising we’re seeing similar results. Testing White LED’s is also a little fruitless because a White LED is actually a BLUE diode with a phosphor coating so you still get a massive blue peak - again attributing to the common blue peak we all see. A good example is the BRS biology band test where all lights are filling part or all of that.

To add (edit) If you buy a 420nm LED.. there will be a level of tolerance across the batch so the actual peak will vary by several nm across the batch. Most quality LED manufacturers will supply that spec.

I recently did this with a cheap Amazon black light to see what PARwise was VS an Ocean Optics Spectrometer that’s factory calibrated for the UV range and it was bang on! Not going to say this will happen on every one but near enough!

Furthermore, please don’t forget that PARwise is not a full spectrometer. It doesn’t have single nanometer precision such as an Ocean Optics Spectrometer (very good, we have one) - and they’re around $5k depending on spec! That said, we do the exact test above against our spectrometer when we calibrate each PARwise’s spectrum - it’s a fun experiment!

PARwise is going to give you a solid indication of the spectrum.. and
How it can change with settings but it’s never going to be a fully fledged spectrometer - don’t forget corals won’t care if your LED is a few nm out on peak… because it’s not just one wavelength the diode emits .

Loving all the input!

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

Illumagic Blaze X 90 dual fixture LEDs with 0 white and blues and UV channels turned to 100%. 18 inches under water and fixtures 11 inches above water.

Interesting. I was able to find this fixture's documentation on the manufacturer's website. This is what they suggest for the spectrum output. (I assume you're using the "Reefer" diode set)

Furthermore, please don’t forget that PARwise is not a full spectrometer. It doesn’t have single nanometer precision such as an Ocean Optics Spectrometer (very good, we have one) - and they’re around $5k depending on spec! That said, we do the exact test above against our spectrometer when we calibrate each PARwise’s spectrum - it’s a fun experiment!

It's totally understandable that technology has limitations, especially at this incredibly reasonable price point. However, it would be nice to know what those limitations are so that we can make an informed decision. I really hope you guys aren't taking this personally.

Right now, I'm kind of obsessed with peridinin. As part of that, I'm constantly looking for bulbs that can give me reduced royal blue output and increased cyan and green. If the PARWise can help me compare bulbs to identify the small differences in those areas of spectrum, then I might seriously consider buying one. If those spectrums are a weakness for it because of some kind of rounding between measurement points or something, then it discourages me quite a lot.

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

Hey Guys

Just to weigh in on the spectrum,

I think I all manufacturers are making product that is trying to hit the blue peaks required for all the major chlorophylls so it’s not surprising we’re seeing similar results. Testing White LED’s is also a little fruitless because a White LED is actually a BLUE diode with a phosphor coating so you still get a massive blue peak - again attributing to the common blue peak we all see. A good example is the BRS biology band test where all lights are filling part or all of that.

To add (edit) If you buy a 420nm LED.. there will be a level of tolerance across the batch so the actual peak will vary by several nm across the batch. Most quality LED manufacturers will supply that spec.

I recently did this with a cheap Amazon black light to see what PARwise was VS an Ocean Optics Spectrometer that’s factory calibrated for the UV range and it was bang on! Not going to say this will happen on every one but near enough!

Furthermore, please don’t forget that PARwise is not a full spectrometer. It doesn’t have single nanometer precision such as an Ocean Optics Spectrometer (very good, we have one) - and they’re around $5k depending on spec! That said, we do the exact test above against our spectrometer when we calibrate each PARwise’s spectrum - it’s a fun experiment!

PARwise is going to give you a solid indication of the spectrum.. and
How it can change with settings but it’s never going to be a fully fledged spectrometer - don’t forget corals won’t care if your LED is a few nm out on peak… because it’s not just one wavelength the diode emits .

Loving all the input!

I

Hey Guys

Just to weigh in on the spectrum,

I think I all manufacturers are making product that is trying to hit the blue peaks required for all the major chlorophylls so it’s not surprising we’re seeing similar results. Testing White LED’s is also a little fruitless because a White LED is actually a BLUE diode with a phosphor coating so you still get a massive blue peak - again attributing to the common blue peak we all see. A good example is the BRS biology band test where all lights are filling part or all of that.

To add (edit) If you buy a 420nm LED.. there will be a level of tolerance across the batch so the actual peak will vary by several nm across the batch. Most quality LED manufacturers will supply that spec.

I recently did this with a cheap Amazon black light to see what PARwise was VS an Ocean Optics Spectrometer that’s factory calibrated for the UV range and it was bang on! Not going to say this will happen on every one but near enough!

Furthermore, please don’t forget that PARwise is not a full spectrometer. It doesn’t have single nanometer precision such as an Ocean Optics Spectrometer (very good, we have one) - and they’re around $5k depending on spec! That said, we do the exact test above against our spectrometer when we calibrate each PARwise’s spectrum - it’s a fun experiment!

PARwise is going to give you a solid indication of the spectrum.. and
How it can change with settings but it’s never going to be a fully fledged spectrometer - don’t forget corals won’t care if your LED is a few nm out on peak… because it’s not just one wavelength the diode emits .

Loving all the input!

Yes, I agree and it's what I said previously is that most LEDs are targeting a certain spectrum. I even wonder if most manufacturers are pulling the old Kessil Logic trick. It makes you think you are adjusting spectrum, but you're only adjusting color.

I'll run tests again on my lights and see what I come up with. The thing with the Illumagic is that you have a white, blue, and UV percentage adjuster. However, the channels have different mixed diodes so you're never adjusting just one set of leds of a certain output. Again, I think this is done as a precaution to keep Reefers from nuking their corals.

@Erasmus Crowley yes I've seen that spectral graph they have and it doesn't match any spectral output tests I've ever seen done by 3rd parties on the Illumagic lights. I've seen full spectrometers used and it doesn't match their graphic.

Illumagic caught some heat for that actually as false advertising. I will say this, the Illumagic Blaze is probably the best LED for growing Acropora I've ever used and I've had about all of the current and past LED's. So they did something right.

 

[ITCreefculture]

I


Yes, I agree and it's what I said previously is that most LEDs are targeting a certain spectrum. I even wonder if most manufacturers are pulling the old Kessil Logic trick. It makes you think you are adjusting spectrum, but you're only adjusting color.

I'll run tests again on my lights and see what I come up with. The thing with the Illumagic is that you have a white, blue, and UV percentage adjuster. However, the channels have different mixed diodes so you're never adjusting just one set of leds of a certain output. Again, I think this is done as a precaution to keep Reefers from nuking their corals.

@Erasmus Crowley yes I've seen that spectral graph they have and it doesn't match any spectral output tests I've ever seen done by 3rd parties on the Illumagic lights. I've seen full spectrometers used and it doesn't match their graphic.

Illumagic caught some heat for that actually as false advertising. I will say this, the Illumagic Blaze is probably the best LED for growing Acropora I've ever used and I've had about all of the current and past LED's. So they did something right.

I’ve heard good things about the Illumagic lights too. Many years ago when I worked a different manufacturer I tried some of their models to see if we could do an ODM job with them. I don’t remember the model name but they had some power!

They are very uncommon in the UK with the only distributed who brought them in closing their doors last year.

 

[oreo54]

Interesting. I was able to find this fixture's documentation on the manufacturer's website. This is what they suggest for the spectrum output. (I assume you're using the "Reefer" diode set)

It's totally understandable that technology has limitations, especially at this incredibly reasonable price point. However, it would be nice to know what those limitations are so that we can make an informed decision. I really hope you guys aren't taking this personally.

Right now, I'm kind of obsessed with peridinin. As part of that, I'm constantly looking for bulbs that can give me reduced royal blue output and increased cyan and green. If the PARWise can help me compare bulbs to identify the small differences in those areas of spectrum, then I might seriously consider buying one. If those spectrums are a weakness for it because of some kind of rounding between measurement points or something, then it discourages me quite a lot.

Yea not sure the above is relevant..there was never.. afaict.. a 660nm diode..
Anyways 2 "official" ones.
TOP is "normal" Blaze (???) w/ 1 505nm cyan?
Bottom is "actinic Blaze puck 2019.

Or is it this one??

No cyan..
Sorry a bit confused here...

Keep in mind the chart is "relative" and the intense blue peak will always suppress the other peaks.