Phosphates, GFO, Reactors and Precision

[Forty-Two]

Hi all,

Im looking to benefit from the experience of some of the other folks in the forum regarding this topic.

Initially when I started to use GFO in a reactor I was concerned about how to control the amount of PO4 being removed from my aquarium with such a....blunt tool. I reasoned that there must be some way to manage this as its a common method for reducing PO4 - hence the topic

I ran GFO in a reactor for a period of time and hit 0 PO4. I was testing just about every day so I caught it pretty quickly, and started to troubleshoot. I reduce the flow coming out of the reactor - which should limit the water being 'treated' - however I couldnt get out of 0 PO4.

Ive since switched to a timer - running it every 4 hours initially, and when PO4 continued to rise moved it to 8 hours. Right now Im trying to find a balance - but without a lot of success.

Is this the method that most of you use? How do you know how much PO4 its going to remove?

My assumption right now is that it will help if I feed and dose on a specific schedule with specific amounts. This should lead to a relatively predictable amount of nutrients in the system and hence Nitrates and Phosphates that need to be 'removed'. Is this correct? Otherwise I dont see a way right now to make sure I keep a relatively consistent level of Phosphates in the system.

and btw - Im not looking to have a steady .05 all the time. I just would prefer to keep it between .03 and .08 ppm

Thanks in advance.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Ummn, interesting topic.

When I first started using GFO about 5 years ago, I was told to keep it slowly tumbling in the reactor.

I did that and found my PO4 was dropping too fast, so I upped the feeding. My fish and coral were very happy and eventually we reached a balance where we were all happy. I use about 150ml for a 400 litre (90g) tank and change it out when phosphates start to rise.

Since then I have started to use AF NP-Pro and Pro Bio S, which I find works effectively for me, and so I'm slowly dropping back the GFO.

Every tank is a different balancing act, so just remember to make changes slowly.

I don't think putting a timer on the reactor is the way to go, as you will have stagnant water in there that you pump back when the pump restarts, with potentially significant ammonia spikes.

Regards
Graham.

 

[Forty-Two]

Ummn, interesting topic.

When I first started using GFO about 5 years ago, I was told to keep it slowly tumbling in the reactor.

I did that and found my PO4 was dropping too fast, so I upped the feeding. My fish and coral were very happy and eventually we reached a balance where we were all happy. I use about 150ml for a 400 litre (90g) tank and change it out when phosphates start to rise.

Since then I have started to use AF NP-Pro and Pro Bio S, which I find works effectively for me, and so I'm slowly dropping back the GFO.

Every tank is a different balancing act, so just remember to make changes slowly.

I don't think putting a timer on the reactor is the way to go, as you will have stagnant water in there that you pump back when the pump restarts, with potentially significant ammonia spikes.

Regards
Graham.

Wow - I didnt think of that regarding the timer. Thanks for the info!

 

[Anthony Scholfield]

Here is my experience with it, maybe it will be helpful...

Ive been using GFO in a reactor for several years now. I use the high capacity stuff from BRS in one of their brand reactors.

When i started using it i started with a small amount and would test regularly during the usage period which for me was a week. This way i could begin to gauge approx. how much PO4 the GFO would handle in a week.

When i say a small amount i mean 3 tbsp for my total water volume of approx. 50 gallons.

So now from having used it for awhile i can decide how much i want to use each week depending on what my PO4 is at the end of the week. I typically use between 2-5 tbsp.

Of coarse other factors will come into play like feeding and if your running a fuge, ect. I also keep mine tumbling in the reactor.

My suggestion would be to measure your PO4 while not using it. Add a small amount to the reactor depending on your water volume. Then measure that week on a few occasions and see how much it removes and go from there.

 

[Forty-Two]

Here is my experience with it, maybe it will be helpful...

Ive been using GFO in a reactor for several years now. I use the high capacity stuff from BRS in one of their brand reactors.

When i started using it i started with a small amount and would test regularly during the usage period which for me was a week. This way i could begin to gauge approx. how much PO4 the GFO would handle in a week.

When i say a small amount i mean 3 tbsp for my total water volume of approx. 50 gallons.

So now from having used it for awhile i can decide how much i want to use each week depending on what my PO4 is at the end of the week. I typically use between 2-5 tbsp.

Of coarse other factors will come into play like feeding and if your running a fuge, ect. I also keep mine tumbling in the reactor.

My suggestion would be to measure your PO4 while not using it. Add a small amount to the reactor depending on your water volume. Then measure that week on a few occasions and see how much it removes and go from there.

This may the piece that Im missing. Ive followed the directions on the instructions - but they arent exactly clear and perhaps added too much GFO to the reactor.

Thanks for your advice on it - I'll give it a try and reduce the amount Im using in it and see if I can find a balance.

 

[Singspot]

IfI do not have any corals (only lots of fish and lots of Anemones) does it hurt to get PO4 to near 0?

For Nitrate removal, i do.water change, use filter socks, have 2 skimmer (in 280G total system) and am trying to control the feeding.

 

[Timfish]

Since the biology in aquaria is in constant flux and corals and algae are also using organic forms of phoshorus which we can't test for it seems to me GFO is about as accurate as we will be able or need to get. Trying to maintain an exact number for just inorganic phosphorus (aka orthophosphate, phosphate, PO4) strikes me as an effort in frustration and I'd reiterate the oft mentioned admonishment "don't chase numbers". Based on de Angelo and Weidenman's research showing a threshold level of .03 PO4 and upwelling providing reefs up to .2 mg/l and Dunn's experiment showing growth up to .5 I'd say anywhere in that range is fine. Here's some links for those interested:

An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals | Journal of the Marine Biological Association of the United Kingdom | Cambridge Core

An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals - Volume 92 Issue 4

www.cambridge.org

An Experimental Mesocosm for Longterm Studies of Reef Corals

Phosphate Deficiency:
Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching:

Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching - Nature Climate Change

Increased dissolved inorganic nitrogen (DIN) concentrations in sea water have been linked to a reduction of the temperature threshold at which corals bleach, however, the mechanism underlying this change is not known. This phenomenon is now explained in terms of increased phosphatase activities...

www.nature.com

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont:

Frontiers | Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont

Reef building corals associated with symbiotic algae (zooxanthellae) can access environmental nutrients from different sources, most significantly via the up...

www.frontiersin.org

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Enrichment of reef environments with dissolved inorganic nutrients is considered a major threat to the survival of corals living in symbiosis with din…

www.sciencedirect.com

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

Phosphate contamination can negatively affect corals, modifying growth rates, skeletal density, reproduction, mortality, and zooxanthellae. We determi…

www.sciencedirect.com

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

SUMMARYSeveral untested aspects of the regulation of inorganic nutrient uptake were examined using nutrient depletion experiments with the symbiotic coral Stylophora pistillata. The total inhibition of phosphate uptake in artificial seawater lacking sodium indicates the involvement of a...

jeb.biologists.org

Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts

https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ecm.1217?casa_token=ziDzrEEJ8g0AAAAA%3AHnfuGTIntMdqOtx2ij-lnoTh7qVg8VBhYFz98e60zfBEvx5IcIVGhmlpUYmzIJuqUNVm0sG8_0vth6lq

2657円まるいち 博多辛子明太子(無着色) 「博多の華」 (ギフト用) 180g Z6572海産物イクラ,タラコ,魚卵 Qoo10]　「博　まるいち　博多辛子明太子(無着色) | therichross.com

2657円まるいち 博多辛子明太子(無着色) 「博多の華」 (ギフト用) 180g Z6572海産物イクラ,タラコ,魚卵 Qoo10]　「博　まるいち　博多辛子明太子(無着色) | therichross.com

therichross.com

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Marine sponges are ubiquitous colonizers of shallow, clear-water environments in the oceans (1, 2). Sponges have emerged as significant mediators of biogeochemical fluxes in coastal zones by virtue of respiring organic matter and facilitating both the consumption and release of nutrients (3, 4)...

www.pnas.org

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Coral reefs are highly productive ecosystems that raise a conundrum called “Darwin’s paradox”: How can high production flourish in low-nutrient conditions? We show here that in three abundant Caribbean sponges, the granules that have been commonly observed in sponge tissue for decades are...

www.pnas.org

Fig 4 from the paper "Phosphorus Metabolism of Reef Organisms with Algal Simbionts"

 

[Forty-Two]

Since the biology in aquaria is in constant flux and corals and algae are also using organic forms of phoshorus which we can't test for it seems to me GFO is about as accurate as we will be able or need to get. Trying to maintain an exact number for just inorganic phosphorus (aka orthophosphate, phosphate, PO4) strikes me as an effort in frustration and I'd reiterate the oft mentioned admonishment "don't chase numbers". Based on de Angelo and Weidenman's research showing a threshold level of .03 PO4 and upwelling providing reefs up to .2 mg/l and Dunn's experiment showing growth up to .5 I'd say anywhere in that range is fine. Here's some links for those interested:

An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals | Journal of the Marine Biological Association of the United Kingdom | Cambridge Core

An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals - Volume 92 Issue 4

www.cambridge.org

An Experimental Mesocosm for Longterm Studies of Reef Corals

Phosphate Deficiency:
Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching:

Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching - Nature Climate Change

Increased dissolved inorganic nitrogen (DIN) concentrations in sea water have been linked to a reduction of the temperature threshold at which corals bleach, however, the mechanism underlying this change is not known. This phenomenon is now explained in terms of increased phosphatase activities...

www.nature.com

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont:

Frontiers | Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont

Reef building corals associated with symbiotic algae (zooxanthellae) can access environmental nutrients from different sources, most significantly via the up...

www.frontiersin.org

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Enrichment of reef environments with dissolved inorganic nutrients is considered a major threat to the survival of corals living in symbiosis with din…

www.sciencedirect.com

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

Phosphate contamination can negatively affect corals, modifying growth rates, skeletal density, reproduction, mortality, and zooxanthellae. We determi…

www.sciencedirect.com

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

SUMMARYSeveral untested aspects of the regulation of inorganic nutrient uptake were examined using nutrient depletion experiments with the symbiotic coral Stylophora pistillata. The total inhibition of phosphate uptake in artificial seawater lacking sodium indicates the involvement of a...

jeb.biologists.org

Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts

https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ecm.1217?casa_token=ziDzrEEJ8g0AAAAA%3AHnfuGTIntMdqOtx2ij-lnoTh7qVg8VBhYFz98e60zfBEvx5IcIVGhmlpUYmzIJuqUNVm0sG8_0vth6lq

2657円まるいち 博多辛子明太子(無着色) 「博多の華」 (ギフト用) 180g Z6572海産物イクラ,タラコ,魚卵 Qoo10]　「博　まるいち　博多辛子明太子(無着色) | therichross.com

2657円まるいち 博多辛子明太子(無着色) 「博多の華」 (ギフト用) 180g Z6572海産物イクラ,タラコ,魚卵 Qoo10]　「博　まるいち　博多辛子明太子(無着色) | therichross.com

therichross.com

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Marine sponges are ubiquitous colonizers of shallow, clear-water environments in the oceans (1, 2). Sponges have emerged as significant mediators of biogeochemical fluxes in coastal zones by virtue of respiring organic matter and facilitating both the consumption and release of nutrients (3, 4)...

www.pnas.org

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Coral reefs are highly productive ecosystems that raise a conundrum called “Darwin’s paradox”: How can high production flourish in low-nutrient conditions? We show here that in three abundant Caribbean sponges, the granules that have been commonly observed in sponge tissue for decades are...

www.pnas.org

Fig 4 from the paper "Phosphorus Metabolism of Reef Organisms with Algal Simbionts"

thanks!