QT tank help

Tony888

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Hi All,

I setup a QT tank for over a week and added my first two clownfish. I decided to use cupramine to pretreat for ich. One of the clownfish did not make it through the night. The other one is not able to use his right fin. I dosed the cupramine exactly as directed. Can anyone please help me understand if I did anything wrong? Maybe the fish were not healthy?
 
Hi All,

I setup a QT tank for over a week and added my first two clownfish. I decided to use cupramine to pretreat for ich. One of the clownfish did not make it through the night. The other one is not able to use his right fin. I dosed the cupramine exactly as directed. Can anyone please help me understand if I did anything wrong? Maybe the fish were not healthy?
Did you cycle your quarantine tank at all? Can you tell us what the parameters are? And what level you had the cupramine at and what test kit you used to determine it?
 
Only other question on top of crabs would be how long did you ramp up the copper? And are you running air stones or power heads or both?
 
Did you cycle your quarantine tank at all? Can you tell us what the parameters are? And what level you had the cupramine at and what test kit you used to determine it?

I did cycle my tank for over a week. Ammonia =0
Nitrite=0
Nitrate=0
PH=8.2

Salinity=1.023
Temp=80 degrees

Copper level was .25 for the first dose. I also using the seachem copper test kit.
 
Only other question on top of crabs would be how long did you ramp up the copper? And are you running air stones or power heads or both?

This was the first dose of cupramine. I was planning to repeat the dose after 48 hours. I'm using air stones and a HOB filter.
 
I did cycle my tank for over a week. Ammonia =0
Nitrite=0
Nitrate=0
PH=8.2

Salinity=1.023
Temp=80 degrees

Copper level was .25 for the first dose. I also using the seachem copper test kit.
If you don't mind me asking, what did you use to cycle the tank? Dr. Tims? The fact that you have 0 nitrate after a cycle throws a red flag for me.
 
If you don't mind me asking, what did you use to cycle the tank? Dr. Tims? The fact that you have 0 nitrate after a cycle throws a red flag for me.

I used Nite-Out II. This was the same nitrifying bacteria that I used for my reef tank to cycle.

20180714_091225.jpg
 
Over what period of time did you add your copper treatment?
 
is there anything in the tank in terms of rock or substrate. There may not have been a large enough bacterial population to handle the bioload of two clowns.

Just a PVC pipe for the fish to hide around if needed.
 
Just a PVC pipe for the fish to hide around if needed.
hmmm 1 week may not have been enough time for a good population to establish that could handle that load especially with limited surface are of glass and some PVC. I usually cycle a QT tank for much longer with increasing doses of Ammonia and some sort of media to allow for a large population to become established. Have you tested the water now that the Clowns have been housed in the tank? Is the Ammonia and Nitrite elevated?
 
I just followed the directions of 20 drops per 10.5 gals. Was I supposed to titrate the copper over an amount of time?
yes, you want to raise the copper level slowly over time. Adding it in all at once could be what did it.
From Humblefish's guide to copper:
How To Treat - First, it is important to know what kind of copper you are using. Cupramine is fully charged (ionic) copper, and has a therapeutic range of 0.4-0.5 mg/L or ppm. You would use a Seachem or Salifert copper test kit for Cupramine, as those are capable of reading copper in the low range. Copper Power, on the other hand, is chelated copper. It has a much higher therapeutic range of 1.5-2.0 mg/L or ppm. As such, you need a “total copper test kit” such as API.

In addition to the aforementioned hobbyist grade test kits, the Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702) is capable of reading all forms of copper. More info on that and other applicable copper test kits here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-test-kits.257924/

Standard copper treatment lasts 30 consecutive days. The reason it takes so long is copper only targets the “free swimming stage” (the same holds true for all chemical treatments & hypo). While 7-14 days is the “norm” to reach this stage, certain strains of ich have a prolonged life cycle. Indeed, even 30 days may not be sufficient in some rare cases. This is why it is so important to observe after treatment ends, to ensure symptoms do not return.

A therapeutic level must be maintained at all times during the 30 days, so testing often is important. If the level drops even slightly out of range, then the 30 day clock restarts. One reason your copper level may drop unexpectedly is if you are treating in a tank with rock and substrate; these should be avoided with copper due to absorption. Conversely, if you exceed the therapeutic range you risk killing the fish. :eek:

Copper is a poison, pure and simple. It only works because most fish are able to withstand being in it longer than the parasites. Knowing this, it is wise to raise your copper level very slowly (over 5-7 days) instead of the usual 24-48 hour label directions. Doing so increases your odds of successfully treating a “copper sensitive” fish. The one exception to this rule is if Marine Velvet Disease is suspected. Due to it's fast killing nature you would want to raise the copper level to therapeutic within 24-48 hours when treating for velvet. Remove copper after 30 days by doing a large water change and using a Poly Filter, Cuprisorb, etc.
 
yes, you want to raise the copper level slowly over time. Adding it in all at once could be what did it.
From Humblefish's guide to copper:
How To Treat - First, it is important to know what kind of copper you are using. Cupramine is fully charged (ionic) copper, and has a therapeutic range of 0.4-0.5 mg/L or ppm. You would use a Seachem or Salifert copper test kit for Cupramine, as those are capable of reading copper in the low range. Copper Power, on the other hand, is chelated copper. It has a much higher therapeutic range of 1.5-2.0 mg/L or ppm. As such, you need a “total copper test kit” such as API.

In addition to the aforementioned hobbyist grade test kits, the Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702) is capable of reading all forms of copper. More info on that and other applicable copper test kits here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-test-kits.257924/

Standard copper treatment lasts 30 consecutive days. The reason it takes so long is copper only targets the “free swimming stage” (the same holds true for all chemical treatments & hypo). While 7-14 days is the “norm” to reach this stage, certain strains of ich have a prolonged life cycle. Indeed, even 30 days may not be sufficient in some rare cases. This is why it is so important to observe after treatment ends, to ensure symptoms do not return.

A therapeutic level must be maintained at all times during the 30 days, so testing often is important. If the level drops even slightly out of range, then the 30 day clock restarts. One reason your copper level may drop unexpectedly is if you are treating in a tank with rock and substrate; these should be avoided with copper due to absorption. Conversely, if you exceed the therapeutic range you risk killing the fish. :eek:

Copper is a poison, pure and simple. It only works because most fish are able to withstand being in it longer than the parasites. Knowing this, it is wise to raise your copper level very slowly (over 5-7 days) instead of the usual 24-48 hour label directions. Doing so increases your odds of successfully treating a “copper sensitive” fish. The one exception to this rule is if Marine Velvet Disease is suspected. Due to it's fast killing nature you would want to raise the copper level to therapeutic within 24-48 hours when treating for velvet. Remove copper after 30 days by doing a large water change and using a Poly Filter, Cuprisorb, etc.

Thanks for the information. The dosage of cupramine might have been too strong for the clownfish. Do I need to cycle the tank all over again if my second clownfish doesn't survive?
 
Thanks for the information. The dosage of cupramine might have been too strong for the clownfish. Do I need to cycle the tank all over again if my second clownfish doesn't survive?
Depended on what your levels are. If the clown doesn't make it you may want to do some water changes to bring the copper level back down.
 
hmmm 1 week may not have been enough time for a good population to establish that could handle that load especially with limited surface are of glass and some PVC. I usually cycle a QT tank for much longer with increasing doses of Ammonia and some sort of media to allow for a large population to become established. Have you tested the water now that the Clowns have been housed in the tank? Is the Ammonia and Nitrite elevated?

About how long would you cycle a QT tank? 2 weeks? I have a sponge in the filter to help establish the population. I didn't test the water after I introduced the clownfish. My plan was to test the water first thing in the morning.
 
Thank you for everyone's input and help. Introducing fish into a QT tank is more difficult than cycling a reef tank and adding corals. This is my first time with fish and I still have a lot to learn.
 
Hi All,

I setup a QT tank for over a week and added my first two clownfish. I decided to use cupramine to pretreat for ich. One of the clownfish did not make it through the night. The other one is not able to use his right fin. I dosed the cupramine exactly as directed. Can anyone please help me understand if I did anything wrong? Maybe the fish were not healthy?

IMO, don't treat for something that isn't there. Would you have your appendix removed to prevent an appendicitis?
 
About how long would you cycle a QT tank? 2 weeks? I have a sponge in the filter to help establish the population. I didn't test the water after I introduced the clownfish. My plan was to test the water first thing in the morning.
Brand new, yes at least. What I do however, is keep some sponges in my DT sump and save some of the water when I do water changes. I use the sponge and water for my QT tank and never have more than 1 fish at a time. My QT is also reasonably large volume- its an old 14 gallon AIO with a 10 gallon sump.
 

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