Rethinking My QT Protocol

[mjreefs]

Hello guys,

I'm new to the forum but have been in the hobby for quite some while, I have a 240 gal FOWLR and a 50 gal DT (45 gallon water volume). My QT regimen for the past years is this:

1. No dips, just acclimate the fish to the QT water.
2. If fish is eating well, leave for one week, then start ramping up copper to therapeutic levels (0.4) in a span of another week.
3. If fish is not eating, train until it becomes a voracious eater, then start copper.
4. On 2nd and 4th week of copper, dose Prazipro after WCs (so basically 2 rounds of Prazipro spaced a week apart).
5. Decrease copper levels through WC, while leaving fish in QT for another 1 week or 2.
6. Transfer to DT (via acclimation)

It worked for my past fish, no problems so far, until recently, a velvet outbreak hit my QT and claimed the lives of the fish in my QT. Fish were a scribbled, flame angel, kole tang, and asfur angel. Good thing it was just the QT (can't stress QT enough!). But now, I'm having thoughts of revising my QT protocol by introducing a dip/bath prior to introduction to the QT, so as to deal with the possibility of velvet. Currently, what I can get are the following:

1. Seachem Paraguard
2. Mardel's QuickCure (hopefully, have to ship it from Amazon)

Can't get CP from any reputable source here from where I am. I could get formalin, but if that's the case, I might as well go for QuickCure (I don't mind paying extra, since I'm going to throw in a bottle of prazi or two anyway). Primary goal is to treat ich, velvet and flukes as a prophylactic measure. Any thoughts on this? Much appreciated.

 

[Hitman]

Sounds good to me but I have zero knowledge on copper. Let’s see if @Humblefish has thoughts on this. He has his own QT setup with copper that a lot of people use.

 

[Hitman]

Oh and welcome to R2R!!!

 

[HotRocks]

Welcome to R2R!!!

I used to do almost exactly the same protocol as you have outlined. Recently switched to this:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-current-qt-process.483371/

I hope this helps! Let me know if you have any questions. Bacterial infections and velvet are rampant currently. This is the only way I could get ahead of the curve.

 

[mjreefs]

Sounds good to me but I have zero knowledge on copper. Let’s see if @Humblefish has thoughts on this. He has his own QT setup with copper that a lot of people use.

Hi, sorry took too long to reply and thanks for the welcome! I do hope he sees this and respond!

 

[mjreefs]

Welcome to R2R!!!

I used to do almost exactly the same protocol as you have outlined. Recently switched to this:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-current-qt-process.483371/

I hope this helps! Let me know if you have any questions. Bacterial infections and velvet are rampant currently. This is the only way I could get ahead of the curve.

Thanks for the insight! Yes, I do agree that velvet is rampant (ich is really not much of a concern, since it is easier to manage).

Just a few questions:

1. With your approach of maintaining copper at a certain level, my fear is that this would lead to the more sensitive fish reacting negatively (e.g. stops eating). I’m actually planning on acquiring the last few angelfish to complete my stocklist (flame, potter’s, multicolor, chrysurus, scribbled and maybe, just maybe, a french) and these are known to be sensitive to copper. I’ve treated angelfish in the past from 0 to 0.4mg/L (cupramine) by ramping up slowly with no adverse effects. Just worried that introducing it immediately to a, say 0.2mg/L copper level (from a 0mg/L copper level water) will cause the fish to stop eating or something.

2. Related to #1, since angelfish are somewhat tricky to have them start eating (with the exception of Potter’s since I plan to get one that eats already, no plan of getting one that doesn’t eat), won’t an established low-level copper make it much more difficult? (I’ve had a Scribbled that refused to eat for one whole week in a QT without copper).

3. I also would assume that antibacterial medications (Furan 2 and Kanaplex) would not react with copper?

4. So there’s no need for formalin dips prior to introduction to the QT? Just to remove the velvet that is possibly carried by the fish.

 

[mjreefs]

And thanks for the welcome!

 

[dwest]

Thanks for the insight! Yes, I do agree that velvet is rampant (ich is really not much of a concern, since it is easier to manage).

Just a few questions:

1. With your approach of maintaining copper at a certain level, my fear is that this would lead to the more sensitive fish reacting negatively (e.g. stops eating). I’m actually planning on acquiring the last few angelfish to complete my stocklist (flame, potter’s, multicolor, chrysurus, scribbled and maybe, just maybe, a french) and these are known to be sensitive to copper. I’ve treated angelfish in the past from 0 to 0.4mg/L (cupramine) by ramping up slowly with no adverse effects. Just worried that introducing it immediately to a, say 0.2mg/L copper level (from a 0mg/L copper level water) will cause the fish to stop eating or something.

2. Related to #1, since angelfish are somewhat tricky to have them start eating (with the exception of Potter’s since I plan to get one that eats already, no plan of getting one that doesn’t eat), won’t an established low-level copper make it much more difficult? (I’ve had a Scribbled that refused to eat for one whole week in a QT without copper).

3. I also would assume that antibacterial medications (Furan 2 and Kanaplex) would not react with copper?

4. So there’s no need for formalin dips prior to introduction to the QT? Just to remove the velvet that is possibly carried by the fish.

I will let hotrocks answer your questions. I do know that I used to use a method similar to yours. But, the big advancement now is the Hanna checker. If you use that in conjunction with chelated copper power, you can precisely control the levels of copper. So you don’t need to overdose therapeutic levels because of difficulties of copper measurement. I know I’ve used his method recently on wrasses and had a very successful quarantine. And the game changer to me was knowing precise cu levels.

 

[mjreefs]

I will let hotrocks answer your questions. I do know that I used to use a method similar to yours. But, the big advancement now is the Hanna checker. If you use that in conjunction with chelated copper power, you can precisely control the levels of copper. So you don’t need to overdose therapeutic levels because of difficulties of copper measurement. I know I’ve used his method recently on wrasses and had a very successful quarantine. And the game changer to me was knowing precise cu levels.

Just to clarify, my concern is not about overdosing, but rather introducing the fish from 0 copper water (from the LFS) to an established copper level water (low and non-therapeutic level from my QT). So since, the fish is introduced to that water upon acclimation, it might react negatively. I usually eliminate any trace of copper from my QT before introducing new fish.

 

[HotRocks]

Hi, sorry took too long to reply and thanks for the welcome! I do hope he sees this and respond!

Humble is away currently on business.

Just to clarify, my concern is not about overdosing, but rather introducing the fish from 0 copper water (from the LFS) to an established copper level water (low and non-therapeutic level from my QT). So since, the fish is introduced to that water upon acclimation, it might react negatively. I usually eliminate any trace of copper from my QT before introducing new fish.

I had always done this previously as well. I have seen absolutely zero negative affects since changing to acclimating directly into copper at +/-1.0ppm.

I have done this with a potters angel and a regal angel. The regal was a bit slow to get eating. But they always are. The potters was one of the best eating fish I've ever had. He is still fat and sassy in @4FordFamily's DT.

Thanks for the insight! Yes, I do agree that velvet is rampant (ich is really not much of a concern, since it is easier to manage).

Just a few questions:

1. With your approach of maintaining copper at a certain level, my fear is that this would lead to the more sensitive fish reacting negatively (e.g. stops eating). I’m actually planning on acquiring the last few angelfish to complete my stocklist (flame, potter’s, multicolor, chrysurus, scribbled and maybe, just maybe, a french) and these are known to be sensitive to copper. I’ve treated angelfish in the past from 0 to 0.4mg/L (cupramine) by ramping up slowly with no adverse effects. Just worried that introducing it immediately to a, say 0.2mg/L copper level (from a 0mg/L copper level water) will cause the fish to stop eating or something.

2. Related to #1, since angelfish are somewhat tricky to have them start eating (with the exception of Potter’s since I plan to get one that eats already, no plan of getting one that doesn’t eat), won’t an established low-level copper make it much more difficult? (I’ve had a Scribbled that refused to eat for one whole week in a QT without copper).

3. I also would assume that antibacterial medications (Furan 2 and Kanaplex) would not react with copper?

4. So there’s no need for formalin dips prior to introduction to the QT? Just to remove the velvet that is possibly carried by the fish.

I think I covered 1+2 already.

The medications listed above (antibiotics) have caused zero negative affects for me used in conjunction with copper. Keep in mind I use chelated copper and not ionic copper. Cupramine is ionic copper.

I only use formalin as a last resort. It's nasty stuff and a known carcinogen. I don't want to expose myself or my fish to it unless its absolutely necessary.

You could do arrival dips/baths in acriflavine (Ruby Reef Rally).

 

[dwest]

Just to clarify, my concern is not about overdosing, but rather introducing the fish from 0 copper water (from the LFS) to an established copper level water (low and non-therapeutic level from my QT). So since, the fish is introduced to that water upon acclimation, it might react negatively. I usually eliminate any trace of copper from my QT before introducing new fish.

I understand. The reason I went ahead and added fish to a tank with some cu was the fact that velvet is very prominent. So the overall risk of adding to an established cu level was less than the fish getting whacked by velvet by taking cu up too slowly. Off topic a little, but what cu test do you use to measure ionic cu? I always had trouble reading mine, but I’m bad with color changing tests.

 

[HotRocks]

I understand. The reason I went ahead and added fish to a tank with some cu was the fact that velvet is very prominent. So the overall risk of adding to an established cu level was less than the fish getting whacked by velvet by taking cu up too slowly. Off topic a little, but what cu test do you use to measure ionic cu? I always had trouble reading mine, but I’m bad with color changing tests.

This^^^

As well as you can reduce the total of time the fish have to spend in copper overall by several days. If you start them off half away to therapeutic and then still do a 3 day ramp. Then transfer at the 14th day of therapeutic.

Copper is poison. It weighs heavily on the immune system leaving them succeptable to other issues such as bacterial infections. Some things like flukes/Brook/uronema can be supressed by copper. A weakened fish may still be vulnerable.

 

[mjreefs]

This^^^

As well as you can reduce the total of time the fish have to spend in copper overall by several days. If you start them off half away to therapeutic and then still do a 3 day ramp. Then transfer at the 14th day of therapeutic.

Copper is poison. It weighs heavily on the immune system leaving them succeptable to other issues such as bacterial infections. Some things like flukes/Brook/uronema can be supressed by copper. A weakened fish may still be vulnerable.

Does copper kill the velvet on the fish? Because I've read they need to be in the "free swimming stage" before they can be killed by copper, that's why I'm thinking of having them dipped, probably in some formalin (QuickCure) or some other medication that would eliminate them. I think HumbleFish recommends Ruby Reef Rally (Acriflavine) as an alternative to formalin, however, I can't have Amazon ship Ruby Reef Rally here.

 

[HotRocks]

Here is @Humblefish's advisory on formalin
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/formalin.290925/
If you are looking to provide temporary relief from velvet upon arrival a FW dip is a much safer avenue IMO. We also don't know the long term outcome caused by formalin. So I only use it in an extreme case, of something that cant be eradicated with a less harsh medication attempt first.

Copper and CP both only kill the free swimming stages of Ich/Velvet.

 

[mjreefs]

Here is @Humblefish's advisory on formalin
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/formalin.290925/
If you are looking to provide temporary relief from velvet upon arrival a FW dip is a much safer avenue IMO. We also don't know the long term outcome caused by formalin. So I only use it in an extreme case, of something that cant be eradicated with a less harsh medication attempt first.

Copper and CP both only kill the free swimming stages of Ich/Velvet.

I do apologize again for the late response.

Yes, I'm quite aware of the issue with formalin, so I guess I might opt into something safer. I do remember a product from Seachem called Paraguard that claims to work as a substitute for formalin? Would you recommend it as a dip prior to introduction to copper-treated water? (Of course without mixing copper and paraguard). Thanks again!

 

[HotRocks]

I do apologize again for the late response.

Yes, I'm quite aware of the issue with formalin, so I guess I might opt into something safer. I do remember a product from Seachem called Paraguard that claims to work as a substitute for formalin? Would you recommend it as a dip prior to introduction to copper-treated water? (Of course without mixing copper and paraguard). Thanks again!

It is still an aldehyde based product. Seachem states its safer than formaldehyde based products and that its a proprietary blend. So who KNOWS??? I have never used it, never found a need.
A FW dip will remove up to 90% of ich/velvet trophonts that are attached to the gills. The fact that the fish are going directly into copper and with the three day ramp to therapeutic levels. I don't foresee any issues with gills being overwhelmed.

This is an old thread but check this post out:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-regarding-herbal-remedies.251560/#post-2965410

 

[mjreefs]

It is still an aldehyde based product. Seachem states its safer than formaldehyde based products and that its a proprietary blend. So who KNOWS??? I have never used it, never found a need.
A FW dip will remove up to 90% of ich/velvet trophonts that are attached to the gills. The fact that the fish are going directly into copper and with the three day ramp to therapeutic levels. I don't foresee any issues with gills being overwhelmed.

This is an old thread but check this post out:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-regarding-herbal-remedies.251560/#post-2965410

I guess I'm going to go with an FW dip instead. Thank you so much for the inputs!