Trident FAQ
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Zaffor
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Reading through some of these posts, you guys make it seem that neptune is secretly trying to take over the world and take us all down!
They said that they would continue to support the classic and they have not abandoned it. New versions of fusion work just fine, new products work equally as well. Both of the Trident threads i have been following have turned into a public lashing. Someone mentioned on another thread that if the new apex didnt do anything different than the old, then no one would buy it!!
Give these guys a chance to see where this goes. When Terrance suggested selling your old units and buying the new package all while getting new probes and power monitoring he was nearly lynched! Useless add ons someone said. Others talk like they would have to trash their old units as if it was an old sega genesis! Perhaps they will offer the brain alone at some point but it would likely be no cheaper than buying a package and EASILY selling the extra "useless crap" such as the eb832 and the new "junk" probes.
I dont know of any aquarium company who would just take back thousands of old product and just upgrade them to the new models.
It's disconcerting reading now negative some folks can be while the announcement for this thing was just a few days ago!!
They said that they would continue to support the classic and they have not abandoned it. New versions of fusion work just fine, new products work equally as well. Both of the Trident threads i have been following have turned into a public lashing. Someone mentioned on another thread that if the new apex didnt do anything different than the old, then no one would buy it!!
Give these guys a chance to see where this goes. When Terrance suggested selling your old units and buying the new package all while getting new probes and power monitoring he was nearly lynched! Useless add ons someone said. Others talk like they would have to trash their old units as if it was an old sega genesis! Perhaps they will offer the brain alone at some point but it would likely be no cheaper than buying a package and EASILY selling the extra "useless crap" such as the eb832 and the new "junk" probes.
I dont know of any aquarium company who would just take back thousands of old product and just upgrade them to the new models.
It's disconcerting reading now negative some folks can be while the announcement for this thing was just a few days ago!!
I'm not really sure I understand this complaint, sorry. When a new car comes out, you can't just buy the engine to put in your current car. When a new iPhone comes out, you can't just buy the new screen. You can piece-meal new computer components (if you did so yourself originally), but it generally won't be easy to do and will certainly require a higher-than-average level of knowledge and experience.
One thing that keeps popping into my head is that if Neptune did allow people to piece-meal systems together, it would not only make support that much harder (which would increase their costs), but it could also result in a lower quality of product (ex; frequent crashes, less reliable readings, more problems in compatibility, etc.). It's easy to see how this would upset users who would then go on to blame Neptune for not having quality products. This would not only cost Neptune time and effort in support and testing, then, but also would greatly increase their risk of brand damage.
I can understand and sympathize with the complaints of having to spend more money on something you've already spent money on. I felt the same way when I changed out my return pump. I feel the same way about my Radion lights (which are G3). I could justify the pump upgrade as it added more head pressure (which I needed), but I can't justify the light upgrade because I just don't feel the potential benefit is worth the cost. Both are my choices; others may have chosen differently in my place; which is fine.
Not at all. They are saying, "We've given it our best effort, but this new feature won't work because [reasons]." They're saying, "We're going to take care of as many of our customers as we can, but we're also going to move forward as a company because that's what we have to do to stay competitive in this industry." Those aren't unreasonable statements to be making; no matter than you personally may not be happy with the result.
Those voicing their frustration are - I'm sure - reasonable people as well. I can certainly understand their complaints, at least. I've been in computers for nearly 30 years and can not even begin to guess at how much money I've had to spend in order to get what amounted to a minor (but usually critical) upgrade. So I get the complaint for sure. I guess, perhaps, some of us have just been indoctrinated to the concept. Yet perhaps those voicing their frustrations are correct; perhaps the model that's evolved isn't the best one out there. The hope of that is why I follow (lurk, really) all the various "open source" controller projects out there. Because - as is proving more common - if you want to have low-level control over your stuff, you have to be willing to build and work it yourself...
I have an iPhone 6 and need a new one. I've known for at least six months that the iPhone eight was coming out the end of the year so I'm waiting. Neptune could've been nice and let people know that The new Apex was coming out. Instead they put the classic on sale and pushed it out. When Neptune says that they're not going to sale the head unit at this time because they have too much interest in the whole unit this is kind of a screw you to the classic owners. Now if they come out with the head unit before the Trident comes out I'll eat my words. Let's see if that happens.
From a pure marketing/business standpoint it seems like an odd decision not to offer an optional module capable of making Trident compatible with an Apex classic. At the very least offering to purchase a head unit alone would be a decent gesture. I don't really buy into the logic about it being a better deal purchasing the bundle, there is no value in purchasing something you do not need or want (extra probes, EB832). I don't have access to usage numbers that are available to Neptune, but making some assumptions, I feel like they're probably missing out on a large number of the potential customers.
Also, I'm not sure the analogy of computer technology advancements really fits this situation, Neptune is still retailing the JR and Classic alongside the 2016 unit. It's not like I can walk into Best Buy and buy a 10 year old desktop with windows XP and then complain when I can't run all the latest and greatest software.
Also, I'm not sure the analogy of computer technology advancements really fits this situation, Neptune is still retailing the JR and Classic alongside the 2016 unit. It's not like I can walk into Best Buy and buy a 10 year old desktop with windows XP and then complain when I can't run all the latest and greatest software.
...or it's a "welcome to family" to all those wanting to buy the whole unit. Every coin has two sides.
The 8 is rumored to drop the Lightening plug. This means (if true) that any peripherals that you currently have for your 6 will either need to be replaced, or get a dongle to convert them. So it's not like Apple is a great example of backwards-compatibility.
Also; the only reason we know anything about the 8 at all is because the information has been (basically illegally) leaked. It's not until Sept 12th that Apple will officially announce anything about the 8 (and that date only came out - what - today?). So your decision to wait is based on information you should not (unless you work for Apple in some fashion related to the project) have access to. Luckily, in the aquarium controller industry, such corporate espionage does not exist to the same degree. Otherwise, we'd likely see higher prices and less customer-centric communications such as @Terence has made in this thread.
I wonder; when you made the choice to buy the Apex Classic, did it meet your needs at the time? Was it's value enough to justify the cost? If so (and I would assume so, since you spent the money on it), then does it still fulfill the objectives that you bought it for?
The point I'm trying to make here is that just because there's a new version, that doesn't mean that the version you chose to buy is in any way less.
And besides; haven't there been new things added that were not available at the time of purchase (like the FMK, perhaps)? Doesn't that demonstrate a good-faith effort to take care of their classic owners? Or are those efforts meaningless because they aren't as "cool" as the Trident?
I, for one, hope they never release a stand-alone head unit. Not because I want to "screw" my fellow reefers that have classic units (far from it), but because I want to see the Neptune family of products continue to grow. I want them to spend their time on R&D of new things - not spend their time on working out problems and bugs in some kind of hybrid old+new solution. It's in the development of new things that we'll see the hobby as a whole grow and improve. I'm sorry that leaves some people feeling left out and left behind (with their perfectly serviceable controllers), but no company can survive supporting every product they've ever made. It's why things have warranties.
And so that it's clear I'm not totally insensitive to the complaints; if Neptune were to drop Fusion support for the classic units (making them little more than surge protectors, say) without some kind of upgrade or ongoing support, THEN I would also have complaints. Not supporting new features is one thing; dropping support for existing ones without redress is another entirely.
True; you likely can't get something 10 years old. But I guarantee you that you can walk in there and buy something that won't work with some marginally specialized piece of hardware or software (which you could - for the most part - also buy at the same time). Buy an off-the-shelf PC with no special specs and go try running the latest games, or doing work in Photoshop or After Effects. You can likely write code on anything (it's just text, after all), but it's unlikely that an off-the-shelf PC could work as a web server for anything of note. Heck; buy a Mac laptop and anything on a CD (or DVD, BlueRay, etc.) and you won't be able to use it.
I think that the analogy of computer technology fits perfectly, myself. The head unit, after all, is just a computer. Granted; it's got a special function that means it will never play your favorite game nor allow you to edit a photo, but it's still a computer in every sense. But everyone has their own opinion, of course. Cheers!
They already offer the stand alone head unit in the uk and it works with the old eb6 plug unit as Neptune can't be bothered to release the new power plug bar over here. So I can't see why they can't offer it in the us.
Daniel@R2R
Living the Reef Life
I'm not sure I understand the reasoning here, so please bear with me. At this point, I think the only item not sold as a stand alone unit IS the new brain (which is available in the UK as a stand alone option). Also, all of the previously released equipment does work with the new brain (that's one of the things Terence pointed out--it's all backwards compatible), so I don't follow the reasoning you're making here. In what way is there not already the idea of piecing a system together under Neptune's previously released products (buying a brain and then the modules that go with it has been kind of a Neptune option for as long as I can remember)? If all of my old products are already set to work with the new Apex, then why would offering just the brain or (my preference) an upgrade-to-Trident bundle cause any issues? If I'm missing something, I'd welcome the explanation.
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Fair point, yeah.
Any idea if it's the same head unit design? Could someone bring a UK head unit to the US and have it work with a US EB unit?
(Not suggesting that happen, just curious if there's an "apples-to-apples" there or not.)
Amoo
Professional Thread Derailer
It really is a very simple and basic thing here. In a way I do feel bad for @Terrance as after all his position within the company is VP of Sales and Marketing. Which means his job is to try to sell all of Neptune's equipment to us. I'm sure he has some say in what and how things are priced and what is and isn't sold as stand alone, but I would guess there are many other people that get to factor into those decisions. Either way all Terrance can do is take whatever information Neptune decides and disseminate it to us in the best possible manner. Which I think he has done a pretty good job. The reality though, and I'm sure this is something he himself probably anticipated, is there are a large number of us who are just sitting here and saying, "That makes no sense just sell us a head unit alone and let's be done with all of this."
The simple and basic part comes in here.
Neptune is going to get a lot of customers to swap to the new packaged unit because they absolutely want this unit.
How long Neptune holds strong on the stance that "The Head units are in too high of demand to split them from the packages" will be determined by how well the Trident sells combined with how well the packages sell.
They have the info and know currently how many classic vs new units are out there. Once the demand for the Trident goes down from the initial surge, if Neptune sees there aren't as many people upgrading to full packages, you can almost guarantee they will either package the new head unit with the trident or offer the new head stand alone. It will all be based off sales in demand. Right now the company feels they can sell enough Trident's without a stand alone head upgrade path. Time will tell.
Our only hope before that point is to make our voices heard and hope they will change their stance BEFORE these come to market, not after.
Either way you have to keep in mind, if they are only selling head units instead of whole packages they are losing money so it's not exactly the best business decision for them unless they can make that up.
The simple and basic part comes in here.
Neptune is going to get a lot of customers to swap to the new packaged unit because they absolutely want this unit.
How long Neptune holds strong on the stance that "The Head units are in too high of demand to split them from the packages" will be determined by how well the Trident sells combined with how well the packages sell.
They have the info and know currently how many classic vs new units are out there. Once the demand for the Trident goes down from the initial surge, if Neptune sees there aren't as many people upgrading to full packages, you can almost guarantee they will either package the new head unit with the trident or offer the new head stand alone. It will all be based off sales in demand. Right now the company feels they can sell enough Trident's without a stand alone head upgrade path. Time will tell.
Our only hope before that point is to make our voices heard and hope they will change their stance BEFORE these come to market, not after.
Either way you have to keep in mind, if they are only selling head units instead of whole packages they are losing money so it's not exactly the best business decision for them unless they can make that up.
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Nope; not missing anything I've said clearly. I don't always explain myself well; I apologize for not being more clear.
In the US*, Neptune knowns (with a reasonable level of certainty) that anyone with the new brain also has the other new equipment. And while they can't relay on that 100% (because - as you say - older components still work), they can likely make that assumption. This assumption can save them time and effort. For example; let's say there's a new feature or product that they want to release like the Trident. If they want to support all versions, there may be factors times more effort than if they just support the new version. For example; if you imagine a (likely overly simplistic) logic tree, you get something like this for the "new only" case:
Code:
if (NEW_HEAD) then
// Support it
else
// No support
Code:
if (NEW_HEAD) then
// New code
else if (CLASSIC) then
// Classic code
else if (JR) then
// JR codeThose extra branches of "if" logic aren't free - they have to be written and tested. Then they have to be supported; not just for the initial release, but every release after that. That extra effort will drive up the cost.
The above also assumes that it's purely software. If there are any hardware requirements (such as processing power, memory requirements, etc.), then it may very well be that the Classic/JR paths of the above would not even work...
I doubt that any of that explained my reasoning, really. :-\ I think, in the end; I didn't really mean what I wrote. I don't actually "hope they never release a stand-alone head unit". I hope they DO, but also that doing so doesn't impact their ability to continue to move their product line forward.
* - The whole UK situation is hard to figure for me. If everything truly is the same between the two head units, then I'm even more baffled. It would still come down to a numbers calculation (as @Amoo more eloquently pointed out than I will try to do).
Here's a link to a uk site selling just the head https://charterhouse-aquatics.com/s...xpansions/neptune-systems-apex-base-unit-2016
I don't see why this head unit wouldn't work with a us eb unit as many brits buy apex products from the us
Amoo
Professional Thread Derailer
@DLHDesign Maybe I'm simply mistaken here, but it just seems to me like you are looking at this whole thing from a technology point of view instead of looking at it from a business view.
I totally get your tech side of things and it does make a ton of sense, but being a business owner myself I very much understand the business side and I immediately look there first, because whether we like it or not, Neptune as a whole is a business.
I totally get your tech side of things and it does make a ton of sense, but being a business owner myself I very much understand the business side and I immediately look there first, because whether we like it or not, Neptune as a whole is a business.
Fritzhamer
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I came from a ReefKeeper to the Apex Classic a few months ago. The difference is staggering. I've been so blown away by the Apex that I've slowly started adding more and more to it. Each purchase has exceeded my expectations. I assume I am not alone in that feeling by the enthusiasm most of you share for this product line.
I don't feel abandoned, almost every module comes with another module built in, including the classic (Tunze control out of the box). I've purchased a ton of add ons, all of which are new and they all work with my classic. I don't feel like Neptune has left the classic behind at all. We are talking about a product coming out next year Q2 (maybe). Everything currently works and some future stuff may continue to work. They aren't talking about End Of Life here.
I was disappointed to see that Trident won't work with the classic but I get it. I ordered the 2016 and will order the Trident when it is ready. On the upside the 2016 comes with the 1link, more probes and more features. I'm happy.
I don't feel abandoned, almost every module comes with another module built in, including the classic (Tunze control out of the box). I've purchased a ton of add ons, all of which are new and they all work with my classic. I don't feel like Neptune has left the classic behind at all. We are talking about a product coming out next year Q2 (maybe). Everything currently works and some future stuff may continue to work. They aren't talking about End Of Life here.
I was disappointed to see that Trident won't work with the classic but I get it. I ordered the 2016 and will order the Trident when it is ready. On the upside the 2016 comes with the 1link, more probes and more features. I'm happy.
I'll grant that I generally give more weight to the tech side of things than the business side initially. But that's not to say that I'm blind to the latter. As someone very familiar with software (and to a lesser degree, hardware), I know the potential for harm to a business should they allow their technology get too broad without the ability to support it. It's always possible to release something new (even if it's just a new bundle of existing tech), but once that's out there the costs of support can't be reclaimed. Nor can the impact to the consumer's perception of the quality the company puts out there.
From a business perspective, what would happen to all the people who DID upgrade from the Classic/JR to the new unit already were Neptune to release a stand-alone head unit in the US? Would there be a fallout and reduced trust in the company as a result? And given that the fallout in that case (should it happen) would be from their new customers (who are statistically more likely to invest in future products), what would that mean to their future products?
Also from a marketing perspective, Neptune has (or wants to) position themselves as the leader in the controller industry. That means, in part, being able to demonstrate that they offer more features and functionality than other providers in the field. Some of those features are the improved probes (which isn't much of a differentiator as anyone can buy the same thing, but there's some in that "the best option" is bundled in) and the ability to monitor the power being consumed. So, by "forcing" people to get all these features, they also ensure that their brand position is moving in the direction they've chosen as important (else they wouldn't have bundled them as they did nor added the features they clearly invested in). In that sense, I can see how they might believe that releasing a stand-alone head unit in the US would weaken their brand.
Zaffor
Well-Known Member
Just in case there are any doubts. I have a new apex and i kept my eb4 in my salt storage room. Works fine no issues there. But you do lose the functionality of power monitoring which I believe is a hugely under promoted benefit of the new model. Meaning that the evil company actually supports cross platform integration.
Were Neptune to release the head unit at an elevated cost I feel that the lashing would then change to something along the lines of them over-inflating prices to deepen their pockets.
I sure wish we could get some commentary that would discuss the potential uses and benefits of the Trident. Maybe even possibly come up with some good questions that Terrance may answer regarding functionality or integration.
Were Neptune to release the head unit at an elevated cost I feel that the lashing would then change to something along the lines of them over-inflating prices to deepen their pockets.
I sure wish we could get some commentary that would discuss the potential uses and benefits of the Trident. Maybe even possibly come up with some good questions that Terrance may answer regarding functionality or integration.
Potatohead
Valuable Member
I think Amoo is likely on the right track. If Neptune can't even meet market demand for this thing for the first six months, what incentive is there to offer 2016 stand-alone brains? None really. They need to wait until Trident sales start to slow down.
Amoo
Professional Thread Derailer
For starters I hope I didn't come across in a way that made you feel like you didn't know anything about business, that was not my attention. Luckily like you I'm a techy nerd as well, but much more on the hardware side then software. The question you asked here is the million dollar question that Neptune just backed themselves into. Now they have come out and stated "there may be an upgrade path in the future but right now the supply is too low". So they have kind of left themselves an out, but you can bet you bottom dollar if Neptune turns around next month and suddenly "inventory is freed up", people who upgraded just for this are going to be piping mad. Now give it until the 1st quarter of next year, and maybe they can get away with it because "inventory has freed up and they have heard our requests", but for the time being they can't just come out tomorrow and change their mind on this.
Personally I think Neptune knows exactly what they are doing, and I'm fairly confident we will see an upgrade path like many are asking for before the Trident release, but again that will all be determined by sales. They might hold on until after it's release to try to sell as many of those new packages as they can and then say okay, we've milked this cow for all she's got, let's go ahead and move a new one into the stall. At that point in time giving us a head unit upgrade path. There is no way they are going to leave money laying on the table forever that is easy pickings and I think we all know that. At some point it will be available, that question though is when. I've made enough assumptions here, that I think it's fairly clear what my thoughts are and I don't want to go further down that road, as I'm not intentionally trying to bash Neptune here. What I am trying to do is trying to explain things from a business first mindset.
In regards to your brand position statement, I agree and disagree at the same time. Had they not made the older probes and things compatible with the new equipment from the get go, then I could see that being part of their thinking. I think we both know that would have been business suicide though and nobody would have bought the new one. I think now they feel they're in a position where they can afford to stand on the other side of the fence and are fairly confident people are going to join them because the Trident is that good.
Again time will tell. They want to make money, we want to save money, it's all a give and take. Sadly with their current position they flat out can't give anymore for at least a little while, or risk upsetting those who did just upgrade only for the Trident.
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