Trident FAQ

[Terence]

And this is my second post on this thread the one u replied to was the first so unless ur a mind reader how have u heard my voice more then once loud and clear?

You posted more than once on the other Trident thread. That is why I made that comment. And as I said, we get it, it's not for you. I'm sorry, but there is nothing that I can do to make you happy as a customer in this regard. The Trident will require the new Apex. It's not a money grab. It's not greed. It's not a conspiracy. We are simply trying to move the technology forward.

 

[Terence]

Hoping for an on schedule release.

me too

 

[MockandRoll]

Really looking forward to this product. My current setup is apex all the way. I am excited to see hard data on the daily swings of alk, cal and mag. My guess is multiple daily tests are unnecessary for cal and mag. I know all planning is on production currently but has Neptune discussed ways to make the cal and mag reagents last longer? @Terence

This is a question for Randy. Do reagents go bad due to evaporation of reagent or some chemical reaction? Just curious why reagents on test kits last long while these reagents will not.
@Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[XNavyDiver]

While the current NSI group is closed, there will likely be a "call for new NSI members" that will happen in the not too distant future. To be considered for NSI for the Trident, applicants would have to be already using the latest Apex.

I'd definitely would like to be on a list if one exists.

 

[Richard baker]

Am I the only one with a apex 2016 that it has worked flawlessly since I plugged it in ? There seems to be a few angry at neptune why I ask. They are simply moving a product forward and making it way more advanced then the previous versions. Trident is a luxury item so is owning a coral reef in your home with most having several thousands in it. They offer trident which monitors the big 3 if u want a stand alone go grab the kh guardian. I personally think in due time u will be able to buy just the brain for your old apex but if you want all the added benefits upgrade to the new apex 2016 and be done with it . Now I would like neptune to make a underwater plug and play reef camera [emoji12] and possibly there own battery back up for the system

 

[CMatlosz]

All I can say is that this is the way technology goes - it is nothing new. My driving wheel for my Xbox360 will not work on the XboxOne (I was bummed). Airbuds will not work on an iPhone 4s. The new Radion lenses will not fit a Gen2 Radion. Many of my (legacy) iPhone apps I know and love will not work on the upcoming iOS11. These are just a few examples - I am sure many readers of this thread can come up with more (and better) examples.

I think where you lose me (and I'm thinking others) is that Neptune continue to retail Apex Classic and Apex Jr systems. I can't walk into an AT&T store and purchase an Iphone 4, no industry retailers are still selling G2 Radions new in box. I understand the need for upgrade cycles & new products, especially from a small company such as yourselves to continue driving sales, but at what point is the classic and JR going to transition into a legacy products category that is officially not compatible moving forward? I think the uncertainty of "will it - won't it" compatibility is a strange road to walk down. I believe it was stated that potential future products (beyond trident) could still be backwards compatible. If anything I think this create a perception that there is arbitrary choice on what you do or don't want to support.

Was there any thought given to providing the Trident itself with the processing power, a module within itself for example, that was capable of processing the testing and relaying results to the controller? Even if this increased the price of the Trident by 100 dollars, you're opening the potential sales to your entire user base. I have to imagine the percentage ownership of Classic and JR systems is way higher than 2016 models, simply as a result of time available on the market.

 

[MnFish1]

Am I the only one with a apex 2016 that it has worked flawlessly since I plugged it in ? There seems to be a few angry at neptune why I ask.

When the 2016 came out there was a problem with a chip in a percentage of the first set of units that were shipped. Many users posted problems and Neptune customer support was excellent in solving these problems (at least in my case) . There were also several issues with connectivity etc that have been mostly resolved by firmware updates. I am not angry about it - but on the other side, I will never again be an early adopter of a technology on my reef tank. Additionally, Im not sure I would ever trust any device to control monitoring and dosing chemicals into the tank. There (to me) would seem to be too much room for error - and even with 'back up programming' a small problem would lead to a disaster quickly.

 

[justingraham]

You posted more than once on the other Trident thread. That is why I made that comment. And as I said, we get it, it's not for you. I'm sorry, but there is nothing that I can do to make you happy as a customer in this regard. The Trident will require the new Apex. It's not a money grab. It's not greed. It's not a conspiracy. We are simply trying to move the technology forward.

Ok then u still can't say that the trident cost 1500-1600 dollars also the other thread wasn't your thread to be worried about. This is ur thread and I read it didn't respond to it until ur sales pitch for people who own a classic apex buy a new one u will eventually need proves anyway. And I must have said something to make you only single me out which is fine with me( also tell Jon Mosnacher thank you and his solenoid is in route to him and I truly appreciate everything HE did for me)

Since that's what I will have to spend I have a couple questions about the trident

U say it uses an eye. What's the longevity of the eye? What will need to be done to insure that the accuracy and precision do not fluctuate? How is the eye protected from a harsh environment of this hobby? How did you get the info on the alk calcium and magnesium being .05 10 and 10 and how can u prove this? Cause to me that is amazing but without the actual data to prove it to me you are just trying to sell your product.

Will you have a set like Hannah does that you can test to see if the machine is still working within its specs?

Considering at most u have been testing the trident for a year what have you done as far as preventive maintenance? Has it been plug and play? Have you ever had a weird test number? And considering that u have pushed out products to early before that have crashed tanks do you honestly think that this product is ready and tested to its potential? Because if it comes out in q2 of next year that's a little over a year this product in its new form has been tested so besides your tank and possibly Jims what other tanks has it been on with proven results and a good track record. (Which to my knowledge the only info we have on it is what you claim it can do no proven data and what we have seen a weird looking case with three bottles in it tied into apex fusion on a "fake" fish tank with supplied water and no corals consuming the elements wouldn't be that hard to have the trident spit out whatever you want in fusion)

I understand the reasoning behind ur schedules test of 4-2-2 and personally think more alk testing would be better but with the calcium and magnesium have u seen the need or fluctuation in results to test it that much?

What's the warranty going to be on it?

It's ur job to sell me so sell me. And please don't answer my questions with we will come out with the answers shortly as u have a couple times in this thread

I haven't asked anything that doesn't warrant an answer. Am I mad about u pushing the new apex thru the trident yes I am but I'm still a customer and deserve to not be talked to like a three year old like is done to everyone who doesn't agree with you challenges you or sees things diffently then you. Cause I don't get my Neptune products for a discount I have to pay the full price so sell it to me from a hobbyist to a hobbyist cause I'm not the only one who feels this way I may be the only one saying anything but there is more who feel the same as I do.


Last thing Terrance I went to my buddy's house yesterday and tried to sell him my apex to get the best amount for it now as everyone keeps saying on this thread I asked what you thought we should still get for our used apex classics in ur wonderful sales pitch and he laughed at me and said In a few months from now I'll be able to pick it up for 50 bucks why would I pay anything less then that. So from a hobbyist to a hobbyist I have a question for ya if you weren't given everything apex makes (which is part of the job I understand that and congrats on it because that's truly awesome) and you had the classic apex and had to drop 1600 dollars on this product because there is no upgrade kit in place and no way for just the brain to be sold because ur eventually going to need probes anyway would you buy it? The sales pitch and the product would you buy it? Remove yourself as the sales person from apex for a second and think if you were a hobbyist would you spend 1600 when you can spend half that for an alk monitor that connects to the classic apex and does the same thing? (Beside calcium and magnesium which is more of a gimmic awesome very awesome but still a gimmic like ammonia on the seyneye) Would you spend YOUR hard earned money on a new apex that still doesn't have the bugs worked out of it when you have a perfectly working classic that has all the kinks worked out of it just for a company to push the boundaries? Or would you think exactly like I do. Your the face of apex you hear us so sell us an upgrade path that isn't based on ur math and thoughts on what a used apex classic can go for and a brand new set of probes.

ur giving us no control at all which I find ironic because we are supposed to be "control freaks"

 

[Benibarra23]

If I want an apex alk monitor to go with everything else apex I have and spent my money on what do I need?
Without the trident being a paper weight how much is the trident for me and a majority of the people out there who control there tank with ur products?
Ur speil about it being the cheapest monitor on the market because it has to be is a lie. I mean it is if u already have ur new apex that doesn't work properly. But even then ur monitor is still a 1400-1500 dollar monitor. Simple math. And since ur so happy to say that my apex won't loose value will u buy it off me? U will eventually need new probes so it's a good deal in the end.

And this is my second post on this thread the one u replied to was the first so unless ur a mind reader how have u heard my voice more then once loud and clear? But maby u should know that there is more then one person who thinks this way
A loyal customer who's getting bullied into a product that isn't as good as the original because tech moves forward. Usually when tech moves forward the newer version is better the iPhone 5 was better then the iPhone four the Xbox one was better then the Xbox 360 I am sure many readers of this thread can come up with more (and better) examples of the newer version being better.

When ur at the top the only way to go is down.

And ur right ur not forceimg me to buy the trident ur forceimg me to go to ur competitor.

Do you have the new Apex? I do. It's way better than the classic.
Super easy set up and much cleaner.

I was able to sell my classic for $300, my salinity module for $120 and bought the new classic on sale last week.

Nobody is forcing you to buy the Trident. If you don't want it or you are upset about the cost don't buy it. The rest of us that want the newest best technology will buy it. We get it. It doesn't work for you specifically because you don't want to upgrade but that's life. You don't always get what you want.
They are making a product that's going to advance the hobby. Yes they are a business, yes they have to make decisions that keep their doors open. Decisions that might not make everyone happy but at the end of the day they are going to do what makes sense.

Complaining about it is not going to change anything.

 

[pa1ntbru5h]

Wow I finally got the time to sit down and read some of this thread.
The Trident looks promising! Before reading this I've never really considered buying an Alk monitor because why would I pay ~$1000 for something I can do myself in less than 5 minutes?
But seeing as the Trident can test the major 3 at a lower price point than the competitors that only test Alk... Bravo.
Also having it tie into the Apex is great! It'll all be in one place with the DOS to do the dosing!
I'm 90% sold on the product.. Now I just have to wait to hear more about it.

Also I just wanted to say that I bought the New Apex about a month after it had been released. Basically during the time a bunch of people were having issues with them. There were a few small issues here and there for me but nothing that wasn't fixed promptly in the next software update.
I love my new Apex. It's not perfect but it works. And with anything.. time moves on and technology will advance, even if you aren't ready for it. If you're one of those people who says "I'll wait until next year to buy the newest iPhone.." guess what.. It's not going to be the newest iPhone anymore. Something better is going to be released and eventually the older versions will be phased out. You can't buy one tech product and expect it to last you forever. Even if the manufacturer says they'll support it... not forever! Bigger and better things will come out to replace it! Name me one tech product in your house that will never need to be replaced...
And no, I'm not a Neptune fanboy.. I just like their product and it does what I want it to do. Simple as that.

Asking questions and demanding answers isn't exactly how things work..
Especially when a company is still in the prototype stage.
I believe the questions being asked here are very valid. I would love to know the ins and outs of how the Trident works as well. I would also love to see the data from the studies for the accuracy claims, but with any other product on the planet.. In order to get the info, we just have to wait patiently until Neptune is ready to give it to us.

 

[Richard baker]

I think the apex jr is just that the jr it runs my 24 gallon nano I have no need or desire to put the new apex 2016 on with trident so why pay 899 when I can get the jr or classic that I don't need all the add ons for that what still makes those models relevant ..

 

[DLHDesign]

Will you have a set like Hannah does that you can test to see if the machine is still working within its specs?

Why should Neptune be expected to reinvent that wheel?
How do you test Alk today? Use that to confirm that the Trident is working until you feel comfortable that you trust it's numbers in your tank.
How do you test Ca today? Use that to confirm that the Trident is working until you feel comfortable that you trust it's numbers in your tank.
How do you test Mg today? Use that the confirm that the Trident is working until you feel comfortable that you trust it's numbers in your tank.

And considering that u have pushed out products <too> early before that have crashed tanks do you honestly think that this product is ready and tested to its potential?

To be fair, this isn't on him to answer - it's on you; the consumer. If you don't think it will be ready on day 1, don't buy it on day 1. Wait until others have put it in their tanks and provided feedback. When you've seen enough to trust that the product is worth the cost, then you can (if you choose) add it to your tank. Or perhaps you never will - that's a choice you have as a consumer.

I haven't asked anything that doesn't warrant an answer.

No; you haven't. But you have also not given him any reason to want to answer you. Right now, you are acting the part of an aggressive consumer who, basically, demands that their money is more valuable to Neptune than anyone else's. But the thing is; it's not - your money is worth the same as everyone else's (less than some, in truth).
The Trident won't hit the market with an unlimited supply of units. They will sell out (that's the nature of new manufacturing and supply/demand), so they aren't trying to get you specifically to buy it. Not yet.
If you really want to know the answers to the questions you've asked (and - again; that's fair), all you have to do is wait. The people who buy the first batch will provide their (our, I hope) reviews. If you want more than 1.5 years of data showing the reliability and durability of the system - then just wait. The data will come - from more and more sources - as time passes. Just wait until the track record is long enough and wide enough for you to trust the results (as always, success in this hobby requires patience). Until then; just keep testing as you have been (with your own chosen methods and on your own chosen timelines).

...and said In a few months from now I'll be able to pick it up for 50 bucks why would I pay anything <more> then that.

I'm sorry, but a data sample size of one is hardly conclusive. Just because your buddy doesn't want to buy it at the asking price doesn't mean others won't either. This is also true in the other direction, of course - if one person sells their classic for $600, that doesn't mean that's what they are worth. That's why Terence gave a number you could "probably get". That "probably" assumes that you try to sell it to more than your buddy and that you're willing to wait for a buyer who IS willing to pay that price to come along.

... The sales pitch and the product would you buy it?

Let's play this out... He says, "Yes; I would" and you could either believe him (best case) or just claim that he's just touting the company line or something and rail on about how he's not talking to you "like a hobbyist" or that he's just trying to "sell you" on it (hint: he's a hobbyist and trying to sell people - not just you - on the product; that's his job and a major reason why he's here - and entirely why he started this thread). If he says, "No, I wouldn't", then you keep harping on him about how the pricing and such is unfair.
So why should he answer you? What good will it do him personally, his company, or his reason for starting this thread?

For the record: I would make that purchase myself, yes. So there's at least one hobbyist who would; does that change anything for you?

I'm sorry this thread seems to have you so upset, @justingraham. Unfortunately; I doubt that you'll be happy with anything in it for some time, to be honest. I truly hope that something can be found to make you (and others in your situation) happy with this product and the Neptune line at large. Yet in the same way that you might speak for others in understandable frustration, I hope that Neptune (and Terence) know that there are many of us that are nothing but excited for this new product to be released and appreciate the goodwill effort that threads like this demonstrate.

 

[MnFish1]

Do you have the new Apex? I do. It's way better than the classic.
Super easy set up and much cleaner.

I disagree with this. The documentation for the Apex 2016 model is poor and scattered. If you go to the Neptune website, the last 'comprehensive manual' is for the Apex classic - 2014 edition. There is no new manual for just the 2016. I have both pieces of equipment in use, and in my experience the classic is more stable and reliable. There are many times (and its always when I'm away) that the Apex 2016 is disconnected from Fusion and the classic is working fine on my second tank.

Neptune has recommended that people not use the native wifi capabilities due to its instability (on the 2016) unless they have absolutely no access to a hard wired option. One of the benefits of the 2016 was the Wifi - which for me us useless because it doesn't work.

The new power bar has some glitches as well.

So I think the guys at Neptune (and some on this forum) should consider that some of the reason people are 'angry' and 'complaining' is that they have a classic, all of their equipment is working great, their tank is great and they do not want to be forced to 'upgrade' to an Apex 2016 to get a Trident and risk some of the known problems with that product and by doing so ruin their tanks. Don't get me wrong - I like my Apex 2016 and classic. I love Neptune customer service. But, the fact is, there have been problems with the 2016, and to ignore that is disingenuous.

 

[Terence]

Ok then u still can't say that the trident cost 1500-1600 dollars also the other thread wasn't your thread to be worried about. This is ur thread and I read it didn't respond to it until ur sales pitch for people who own a classic apex buy a new one u will eventually need proves anyway. And I must have said something to make you only single me out which is fine with me( also tell Jon Mosnacher thank you and his solenoid is in route to him and I truly appreciate everything HE did for me)...
.
.
.
ur giving us no control at all which I find ironic because we are supposed to be "control freaks"

I feel it is important for manufacturers to stay connected to their customers, even those that are not happy about their products or their product direction. So, despite the tone, I will answer some, but not all of your questions. I am not dodging, its just for some of these questions they either are not relevant (of course in my opinion, but that is what forums are about, right?), or we are not going to give out that proprietary info, or we are not yet ready to disclose the information. So here is what I can tell you.

The Trident uses an LED system to detect the changes that happen during titration. LED are rated for many thousands of hours of service. This is not something that should be concerning factor for long-term ownership of the Trident.

We will provide a set of calibration standards with the Trident.

I would hope that you would be skeptical about our product as well as the products from others that have been demonstrated but not yet seen out in the reefkeeping world. That said, the prototypes for the alkalinity component of the Trident have been in place and testing on real reef aquariums (including Rich Ross - the king of skeptical reefkeeping) for more than a year with nearly zero maintenance (although one of the prototype components in Rich's system did have a minor issue once in that timeframe).

We are still perfecting the test schedules that make the most sense. That said, at this point, we are recommending at least once a day for Ca and Mg.

I do not need to sell you on the Trident at this time. It is too early for that. There will be plenty of time for us to provide more information and for you to do more research. That said, the Trident will require a new Apex, and you have said you absolutely will not upgrade, so there is not much point in trying to sell you if that is the case.

We do not yet know what the warranty will be.

I do not know how you are possibly getting to $1600. Furthermore, never did I say that there would not be a way for existing owners of the classic to purchase the 2016 Apex Base unit. I simply said that it is not available now, and it would likely not make the most financial sense if or when it were ever made available.

You asked what I would do as a customer - you should know that I was an Apex customer the first year they came out (2009) - long before I became an employee (2012). Wow - it has been that long... So, if I were a paying Control Freak right now, and knew I was going to get the Trident when it came out, and had owned my Classic for more than a year, and I had not yet made the plunge to get a new Apex, I would sell off my Apex Classic for whatever I can get for it, along with one of my EB8 (because I would/did have more than one), along with all the probes, and PM2 and would have bought the new Apex two weekends ago for $719. Net to me would be likely ~$350-$450 and for that I would have got the new Apex, a better Energy Bar, a completely new set of probes, and a new one-year warranty. Oh, and because I bought it with my Amex, I would get an extra year of warranty. You asked what I would do - well that is absolutely the most honest answer I could give and I am glad you asked.

 

[Fabianslit]

I disagree with this. The documentation for the Apex 2016 model is poor and scattered. If you go to the Neptune website, the last 'comprehensive manual' is for the Apex classic - 2014 edition. There is no new manual for just the 2016. I have both pieces of equipment in use, and in my experience the classic is more stable and reliable. There are many times (and its always when I'm away) that the Apex 2016 is disconnected from Fusion and the classic is working fine on my second tank.

Neptune has recommended that people not use the native wifi capabilities due to its instability (on the 2016) unless they have absolutely no access to a hard wired option. One of the benefits of the 2016 was the Wifi - which for me us useless because it doesn't work.

The new power bar has some glitches as well.

So I think the guys at Neptune (and some on this forum) should consider that some of the reason people are 'angry' and 'complaining' is that they have a classic, all of their equipment is working great, their tank is great and they do not want to be forced to 'upgrade' to an Apex 2016 to get a Trident and risk some of the known problems with that product and by doing so ruin their tanks. Don't get me wrong - I like my Apex 2016 and classic. I love Neptune customer service. But, the fact is, there have been problems with the 2016, and to ignore that is disingenuous.

Do you have any old phones laying around? Try and run some new apps on it, see how well that works.

The fact is that at the time the apex classic had the greatest and latest features, how ever the trident is able to use the new 2016 modle and its improved processor.

I won't say I haven't had issues with the 2016 but once my tank moved much closer to the wifi signal I've maybe had one issue with internet (caused by my router)

The 2016 has kept most of the simplicity of the classic and improved where needed, it doesn't require a whole new manual to set it up

 

[Terence]

The documentation for the Apex 2016 model is poor and scattered. If you go to the Neptune website, the last 'comprehensive manual' is for the Apex classic - 2014 edition. There is no new manual for just the 2016.

That is a fair assessment and we can do a better job in this area.

Neptune has recommended that people not use the native wifi capabilities due to its instability (on the 2016) unless they have absolutely no access to a hard wired option. One of the benefits of the 2016 was the Wifi - which for me us useless because it doesn't work.

We are continually improving connectivity on Wi-Fi, including an upcoming release of AOS that has many new provisions to deal with difficult non-compliant wi-fi networks. That said, I will ALWAYS recommend a wired over a Wi-Fi connection for any piece of connected equipment - especially one that is mission-critical. That is not a slight to our product, that is a comment pointed at the very unreliable nature of wi-fi networking itself. Someone at MACNA came by the booth who had a photo-copier business for many years. He told me about how a number of years back, wifi for copiers was all the rage, now he said the pendulum has swung back due to all the unreliability.

So I think the guys at Neptune (and some on this forum) should consider that some of the reason people are 'angry' and 'complaining' is that they have a classic, all of their equipment is working great, their tank is great and they do not want to be forced to 'upgrade' to an Apex 2016 to get a Trident and risk some of the known problems with that product and by doing so ruin their tanks. Don't get me wrong - I like my Apex 2016 and classic. I love Neptune customer service. But, the fact is, there have been problems with the 2016, and to ignore that is disingenuous.

I do understand these things. And your points have some merit. But we are not forcing anyone to do anything and there are plenty of issues we see ongoing with the Classic as well that is the nature of technology. But understand that the curve of issues over time is not linear - it is always steepest in the first year of any new technology product.

Thank you for being a customer, and thank you for staying engaged in the conversation.

 

[MnFish1]

Do you have any old phones laying around? Try and run some new apps on it, see how well that works.

The fact is that at the time the apex classic had the greatest and latest features, how ever the trident is able to use the new 2016 modle and its improved processor.

I won't say I haven't had issues with the 2016 but once my tank moved much closer to the wifi signal I've maybe had one issue with internet (caused by my router)

The 2016 has kept most of the simplicity of the classic and improved where needed, it doesn't require a whole new manual to set it up

Terrence answered (thanks) the comments I made so I edited this post.

Bringing this back to the Trident itself, I hope, that before releasing the product, there is a manual with simple set up instructions, and most importantly, a troubleshooting guide for some of the more common problems others have had in setup, and while using the product.

 

[reeffish]

Some of these comments really just blow my mind. If you don't want to upgrade to the Apex 2016 then you won't be able to get some of the cool new stuff coming out.

Neptune hasn't ended support for the Classic, like they did for my ACIII (which is still running, BTW). But I also don't expect it to run any of the new stuff that comes out. I use it simply to control some extra equipment that I have in my tank, that is not essential to keeping my tank alive.

I think some would still complain if Neptune gave them free stuff. [emoji15]

 

[MnFish1]

We are continually improving connectivity on Wi-Fi, including an upcoming release of AOS that has many new provisions to deal with difficult non-compliant wi-fi networks. That said, I will ALWAYS recommend a wired over a Wi-Fi connection for any piece of connected equipment - especially one that is mission-critical. That is not a slight to our product, that is a comment pointed at the very unreliable nature of wi-fi networking itself. Someone at MACNA came by the booth who had a photo-copier business for many years. He told me about how a number of years back, wifi for copiers was all the rage, now he said the pendulum has swung back due to all the unreliability. I do understand these things. And your points have some merit. But we are not forcing anyone to do anything and there are plenty of issues we see ongoing with the Classic as well that is the nature of technology. But understand that the curve of issues over time is not linear - it is always steepest in the first year of any new technology product.

Thank you for being a customer, and thank you for staying engaged in the conversation.

You're welcome. And thanks for realizing my posting has nothing to do with slamming Neptune, and everything to do with improving the upcoming product (and the current ones).

 

[David Cher]

That is a fair assessment and we can do a better job in this area.

We are continually improving connectivity on Wi-Fi, including an upcoming release of AOS that has many new provisions to deal with difficult non-compliant wi-fi networks. That said, I will ALWAYS recommend a wired over a Wi-Fi connection for any piece of connected equipment - especially one that is mission-critical. That is not a slight to our product, that is a comment pointed at the very unreliable nature of wi-fi networking itself. Someone at MACNA came by the booth who had a photo-copier business for many years. He told me about how a number of years back, wifi for copiers was all the rage, now he said the pendulum has swung back due to all the unreliability.


I do understand these things. And your points have some merit. But we are not forcing anyone to do anything and there are plenty of issues we see ongoing with the Classic as well that is the nature of technology. But understand that the curve of issues over time is not linear - it is always steepest in the first year of any new technology product.

Thank you for being a customer, and thank you for staying engaged in the conversation.

Just curious if it is ever possible to have a cheaper upgrade or trade in offer to help international loyal classic customer to jump in onto the 2016 bandwagon ????