What am I doing wrong!?

[Flippers4pups]

Bag to bucket, drip, net, tank

The reason we where asking is that long duration drip acclimation can lead to ammonia toxicity without water changes, during the process.

Using Prime or Amquel during acclimation is not recommend as well. If copper is in the bag water, adding a water conditioner to it can cause the copper in the water to become 10x as toxic.

Temperature acclimation of 20mins is sufficient to equalize temperature.

 

[Jamie knight]

The reason we where asking is that long duration drip acclimation can lead to ammonia toxicity without water changes, during the process.

Using Prime or Amquel during acclimation is not recommend as well. If copper is in the bag water, adding a water conditioner to it can cause the copper in the water to become 10x as toxic.

Temperature acclimation of 20mins is sufficient to equalize temperature.

Thanks Flipper! I have never ordered fish online before so the whole experience was new to me. I tried my best to do it right, and I didn't add water during the acclimation besides that coming from the tank in the drip. Next time I'll be sure to do that. I just think its weird he made it in the tank 20 hours before passing. He seemed perfectly ok, swimming in the current of the power heads, eating green algae. The anemone which I'm told is more sensitive is just thriving. Even picked up my xenia frag and moved it around the tank. I'm just sad he passed, it'll probably be awhile until i try again..

 

[Brew12]

swimming in the current of the power heads,

Just so you are aware, this can be a sign of gill damage. They swim into the flow to get more water moving over their gills. Parasites and ammonia can both cause the gill damage that encourages fish to do this. Of course, not every fish who does swim into power heads has gill damage, it is just one symptom to be aware of.

 

[Flippers4pups]

Thanks Flipper! I have never ordered fish online before so the whole experience was new to me. I tried my best to do it right, and I didn't add water during the acclimation besides that coming from the tank in the drip. Next time I'll be sure to do that. I just think its weird he made it in the tank 20 hours before passing. He seemed perfectly ok, swimming in the current of the power heads, eating green algae. The anemone which I'm told is more sensitive is just thriving. Even picked up my xenia frag and moved it around the tank. I'm just sad he passed, it'll probably be awhile until i try again..

Swimming into flow........sounds like velvet!

 

[vetteguy53081]

Acclimation is the issue. Your tank salinity is way low and should at least 1.024 as the new industry standard is 1.026.
Not sure what instrument you use for salinity testing but would strongly suggest a refractometer and get a second opinion from an LFS to assure accuracy of your own gage.
Additionally , I would test salinity in bag with fish when acquired. If your LFS is giving you this advice and running their tanks at 1.012, I'd seriously consider another source to buy from.

 

[Rython]

@vetteguy53081 LA sends fish at 1.018 or lower and they definitely have the largest market share. I know most of the local stores here keep fish at lower salinity than his DT. I'd like to know the basis of your assertion that the "new industry standard" is 1.026 because I certainly haven't seen any research that supports that. In fact, everything i've seen indicates the opposite.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Great questions. I've been in hobby 30 yrs and former pet store owner and years ago, recommended was 1.021. If you look at scales on hydrometer and refractometers, the safe range is 1.023-1.027. I attend many trade shows and expos and when speaking with wholesalers and resellers, they are running their displays and holding tanks at 1.026.
This is one of my tanks at 1.026:

 

[Rython]

That's a reef tank. We're talking about fish health, not coral health. What's safe for fish and what's safe for coral are two different things.

For example, from Live Aquaria's Website: https://www.liveaquaria.com/article/282/?aid=282

"What specific gravity do you keep your livestock?
The California facility maintains a specific gravity of 1.018- 1.020 for fish and 1.023 - 1.025 for corals and inverts at a water temperature of 76 degrees Fahrenheit."

As a reminder, the OP is asking why his fish are dying. Fish in FOWLR systems are often kept below his SG indefinitely. Fish in Quarantine are kept in much lower SG for a month to treat various diseases without incident. His SG doesn't explain this.

 

[vetteguy53081]

1.018 would be considered brackish. 1.921 has been recommended for years and looking at live Aquaria, they recommend on many of their fish 1.021 - 1.024 . that's hyposalinity and we can argue back and forth but after 30 years and having raised the mist difficult fish, I'm sticking with tried and true VS shipper recommended.
The proof is below

 

[Rython]

OK well, if you think his fish died in 24 hours because his DT is at 1.021, despite:

(1) he is keeping other fish in that salinity just fine,
(2) not only do many FOWLR hobbyists keep fish in LOWER salinity that OP's DT, but so do the most successful retailers (businesses that rely on keeping fish alive to maintain profitability),
(3) the disease forum describes how to safely treat fish with hyposalinity of 1.009 for 30 days (lot longer than 24 hours), and
(4) the OP said he drip acclimated over the course of 20 minutes. If the bag water was higher than that it should definitely be no problem. But even if bag salinity was lower, 20 minutes is plenty of time to acclimate up to the DT salinity, particularly since it probably was only off by around .003. Acclimating over a longer period than that only increases ammonia burn risk. (See Dr. RHF's question of the day on the subject) - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/reef-chemistry-question-of-the-day-12.173979/

I'm sorry but I don't see how your photos constitute sufficient evidence, let alone "proof". Nevertheless, I guess it's time to concede that continuing to discuss the issue with you is pointless.

For posterity, the reason vetteguy's opinion is surprising to me (in addition to the LA link above) is:
(1) Hyposalinity thread https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/hyposalinity.247596/
(2) Fish arrive sick all the time, even from sources some people think are "safe". In fact there's a thread about that very thing on the front page of this forum right now. Also the shipping process isn't exactly gentle. Even outside of extreme temperatures this time of year those boxes often get tossed around. Easy to imagine how a fish could become fatally injured or stressed. Any of these are such plausible causes of death I just don't see the value in entertaining a hypothesis that just doesn't have very strong evidence supporting it. In fact there is plenty of evidence contradicting it.

That isn't to say it's a good idea to keep a reef at 1.021, but that's a completely different question than why did a new fish die within 24 hours.

 

[Jamie knight]

Acclimation is the issue. Your tank salinity is way low and should at least 1.024 as the new industry standard is 1.026.
Not sure what instrument you use for salinity testing but would strongly suggest a refractometer and get a second opinion from an LFS to assure accuracy of your own gage.
Additionally , I would test salinity in bag with fish when acquired. If your LFS is giving you this advice and running their tanks at 1.012, I'd seriously consider another source to buy from.

Hey Vette,
Thank you for the feedback. I use a refractometer and do calibrate it. I have since this conversation started slowly started increasing my salinity it's at 1.022 right now. There are so many mixed viewpoints on ideal salinity. Some have success with less and others with more. The online vendor recommended 1.020-1.025 for the foxface. I'll post a photo of their listing at the end.

I'll also say, I since found another foxface locally and acclimated him slowly by floating the bag and slowly adding tank water to the floating bag. This foxface has been super happy for a few days now. Eating, swimming, making friends with the damsel. Which makes me wonder if it was actually the fish I got in the mail.

 

[Jesterrace]

Sounds like no QT was done and they shipped with disease. Personally I am NOT a fan of ordering online for this very reason. With an LFS you can see the fish in a holding tank for a week or two to make sure it has some semblance of survivability. The one time I for sure had a fish die of ich was when I took it straight from the shipping bag and floated it for 30-40 minutes and put it straight in my DT. I will NEVER do that again.

 

[Jamie knight]

Sounds like no QT was done and they shipped with disease. Personally I am NOT a fan of ordering online for this very reason. With an LFS you can see the fish in a holding tank for a week or two to make sure it has some semblance of survivability. The one time I for sure had a fish die of ich was when I took it straight from the shipping bag and floated it for 30-40 minutes and put it straight in my DT. I will NEVER do that again.

Thanks Jesterance! Unfortunately my lfs is about 1.5 hours away, that fish place! Which is amazing to visit. So hence I ordered online. I don't think I'll go that route again either! But the new foxface is going strong at 4 days so far. I found him locally while an hour or so out of town at a petco of all places..

 

[aquariumworks]

It is quite common for wholesale facilities to keep their fish systems as low as 1.016 to aid in parisite control and many online vendors get their fish dropped shipped from wholesalers...
Forgive me if I missed it, was the pH checked in the Aquarium and fish bag water at the time of acclimation?
Depending on the distance traveled from source to your doorstep, the pH could dip down significantly for the fish’s respiration.
The oxygen levels drop and CO2 increases as the hours pass in traveling. The CO2 level increase, decreases the pH.
When I would get fish directly from Indonesia and the Philippines the pH would be as low as 6.8 at times(usually because TSA held the container too long).
I would have two pH pens on hand to drip acclimate the fish to monitor the rate of pH change. I found from experience that is the most crucial thing to monitor during acclimation. If the pH changed too fast the fish would get what I call “The spin of death”, I called it that because the fish, especially surgeon fish, would start doing circular motions, and never recover from it.

I hope this is helpful and I would recommend supporting a local fish store, I know some places, that’s just not an option, but if possible it’s usually the best way.

 

[Jamie knight]

It is quite common for wholesale facilities to keep their fish systems as low as 1.016 to aid in parisite control and many online vendors get their fish dropped shipped from wholesalers...
Forgive me if I missed it, was the pH checked in the Aquarium and fish bag water at the time of acclimation?
Depending on the distance traveled from source to your doorstep, the pH could dip down significantly for the fish’s respiration.
The oxygen levels drop and CO2 increases as the hours pass in traveling. The CO2 level increase, decreases the pH.
When I would get fish directly from Indonesia and the Philippines the pH would be as low as 6.8 at times(usually because TSA held the container too long).
I would have two pH pens on hand to drip acclimate the fish to monitor the rate of pH change. I found from experience that is the most crucial thing to monitor during acclimation. If the pH changed too fast the fish would get what I call “The spin of death”, I called it that because the fish, especially surgeon fish, would start doing circular motions, and never recover from it.

I hope this is helpful and I would recommend supporting a local fish store, I know some places, that’s just not an option, but if possible it’s usually the best way.

Thank you! My tank pH is about 8.1 I did not measure the pH in the bag. The shipment came from California so I imagine it is plausible it could have been a pH issue. No spinning though. Was fine initially and then just laid down and died within about 20 hours.

 

[Jamie knight]

It is quite common for wholesale facilities to keep their fish systems as low as 1.016 to aid in parisite control and many online vendors get their fish dropped shipped from wholesalers...
Forgive me if I missed it, was the pH checked in the Aquarium and fish bag water at the time of acclimation?
Depending on the distance traveled from source to your doorstep, the pH could dip down significantly for the fish’s respiration.
The oxygen levels drop and CO2 increases as the hours pass in traveling. The CO2 level increase, decreases the pH.
When I would get fish directly from Indonesia and the Philippines the pH would be as low as 6.8 at times(usually because TSA held the container too long).
I would have two pH pens on hand to drip acclimate the fish to monitor the rate of pH change. I found from experience that is the most crucial thing to monitor during acclimation. If the pH changed too fast the fish would get what I call “The spin of death”, I called it that because the fish, especially surgeon fish, would start doing circular motions, and never recover from it.

I hope this is helpful and I would recommend supporting a local fish store, I know some places, that’s just not an option, but if possible it’s usually the best way.

Oh also I do generally use a local fish store but the two I use could not get their hands on a foxface or pulsing xenia so I ordered them. I did find a foxface at a Petco though by total happenstance I guess 4 days ago now and he's quite happy.