Why do you do water changes?

[shred5]

Mainly to remove anything bad and too equalize anything that could possibly build up over time.

I do not do it to add trace elements because I dose 3 part.

Also it is not know what trace elements are being consumed at what rate they are consumed so some could build up over time and possibly become toxic with dosing.

Coral and algae Allelopathy.. It is thought that carbon may reduce these but as far as I know it has never been proven too. So water changes help to improve the chances of this not happening.


Why take a chance with animal’s lives when water changes are cheap. It is one of those things that can not do any bad to a reef and only good if done right,.

 

[Ace25]

I agree with you that if they are done right, only good can come of doing a water change. I am certainly not trying to advocate anyone not doing water changes.

I am trying this on my tanks, and only my tanks. I am trying to now pinpoint the exact reasons why water changes are needed to see how efficient I can maintain a reef tank. I personally don't find water changes to be cheap, I have tallied up all the salt and water I have made over the years and it over $15,000 just for water changes. I am now looking back at all that $ literally dumped down the drain and asking why I did that, are there legitimate reasons, and can I eliminate those reasons cheaper than by doing a water change. If the reasons are for nitrate and phosphate reduction, I am trying to use cheap natural means to solve that, and if it to replenish elements, cheap dosing is my solution. That doesn't mean put the health of the livestock at risk though. If I saw an issue that I thought a water change would fix I would be the first one to do it. I still believe in some form of DOC removal as well as additional phosphate removal, but I just don't think I need to use them as aggressively as I did in the past (when I ran dual GFO/Rox carbon reactors).

On the flip side of that though, I have seen, and personally done "bad" water changes in the past. It is very easy for someone to become complacent in regards to water changes. They forget to check their RO/DI water to ensure it is working properly (0 TDS), or don't test every new bag/box of salt they buy and assume the parameters going in are better than the ones you are taking out. Another one is people trust their LFS and that the water is good. I can't count the number of times I have seen people have algae outbreaks in their display because they assumed their RO/DI was still good without testing, or wonder why their calcium went down instead of up after a water change. This goes back to what you said about doing it right.

 

[Trex]

Because the tanks look better afterwards -- even though the test kits say that nothing changes, the livestock says otherwise.

 

[shred5]

I agree with you that if they are done right, only good can come of doing a water change. I am certainly not trying to advocate anyone not doing water changes.

I am trying this on my tanks, and only my tanks. I am trying to now pinpoint the exact reasons why water changes are needed to see how efficient I can maintain a reef tank. I personally don't find water changes to be cheap, I have tallied up all the salt and water I have made over the years and it over $15,000 just for water changes. I am now looking back at all that $ literally dumped down the drain and asking why I did that, are there legitimate reasons, and can I eliminate those reasons cheaper than by doing a water change. If the reasons are for nitrate and phosphate reduction, I am trying to use cheap natural means to solve that, and if it to replenish elements, cheap dosing is my solution. That doesn't mean put the health of the livestock at risk though. If I saw an issue that I thought a water change would fix I would be the first one to do it. I still believe in some form of DOC removal as well as additional phosphate removal, but I just don't think I need to use them as aggressively as I did in the past (when I ran dual GFO/Rox carbon reactors).

On the flip side of that though, I have seen, and personally done "bad" water changes in the past. It is very easy for someone to become complacent in regards to water changes. They forget to check their RO/DI water to ensure it is working properly (0 TDS), or don't test every new bag/box of salt they buy and assume the parameters going in are better than the ones you are taking out. Another one is people trust their LFS and that the water is good. I can't count the number of times I have seen people have algae outbreaks in their display because they assumed their RO/DI was still good without testing, or wonder why their calcium went down instead of up after a water change. This goes back to what you said about doing it right.

You are not the first to try.. They have all ended badly. Problem is once you hit saturation point it is too late it seems. This hobby has been around along time.. I think by now if it were possible someone would have done it by now. The real question is why things go wrong with out water changes and what goes wrong and how fast. Now that would a good study.

I too would like to see pics of your tanks. Someone else on another forum was making this claim of about 2 years. Turned out he was not telling the truth. Some one found pics in another thread of his tank and it turned out his tanks was only set up a short time. Not saying you are doing this but this would allow us to follow your progress.

 

[kodiak]

I'm with everyone else, but makes me think twice about doing water changes for trace elements when dosing B-Ionic. My nitrates and phosphates are non existant, so very tempted to decrease water changes from once a week to once a month, but not brave enough to take the risk quite yet!!

When doing a water change I always add a bit more salt water than I take out, to increase the salinity (Or mix at a slightly higher salinity). It seems the salinity decreases slightly overtime due to removing small amounts of tank water when acclimating fish and corals or possibly for what is getting skimmed out?? (My skimmate is fairly wet) If you never do a water change, how do you account for decreased salinity? And by decrease I see a it go from 1.025 to 1.0245. Anyone else notice this?

 

[Ace25]

You are not the first to try.. They have all ended badly. Problem is once you hit saturation point it is too late it seems. This hobby has been around along time.. I think by now if it were possible someone would have done it by now. The real question is why things go wrong with out water changes and what goes wrong and how fast. Now that would a good study.

I too would like to see pics of your tanks. Someone else on another forum was making this claim of about 2 years. Turned out he was not telling the truth. Some one found pics in another thread of his tank and it turned out his tanks was only set up a short time. Not saying you are doing this but this would allow us to follow your progress.

That is my question as well, what saturation point are we talking about? I don't doubt there is a point where a balance of some type is tipped. Like you said, I want to know what the mystery piece is that causes it to happen.

I am looking for reasons people do water changes so I can think of ideas on things to test for that may cause a tank crash from not doing them. Not that it matters for the topic of this thread, but I did the math and it has been 18 months when last stopped doing water changes on my 75G, except for last month I had to break down and I did 2 water changes using very nasty old water out of my clownfish grow out tank because I knew my 75G filtration and corals could handle the nasty water (and the baby clownfish couldn't). The water in the grow out tank turned into a phyto tank and I didn't have any salt on hand so I swapped 25G out with my 75G which turned my 75G all cloudy for a day. Those 2 days I also ran a skimmer on the tank to help clean up the water. My 60G has been setup for 11 months now and no water changes after the first month, so 10 months for that tank and so far so good but that one is my super easy/free coral tank anyway, not really one I would look at and compare against a nice SPS filled tank.

Here are videos and pictures of both that I took today. I know the videos are terrible (10 year old digital camera that can take short 320x240 movies).

75G (30"x24"x24")
[video=youtube;HG7bDkHhiBg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG7bDkHhiBg[/video]

60G (48"x15"x18"):
[video=youtube;pMzQk7U5Euw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMzQk7U5Euw[/video]

 

[REEFKEEPER10]

I do them because I don't feel alive unless my back hurts when I go to bed !!!! Lol. But no really I have done the no water change thing and sure never had any bad effect but I never got good growth and color until I started. Plus if you have it set right it takes 5 to 10 minutes to do one and maybe 30 minutes every week or two to mix a batch. for me if that is all it take to have a piece of the ocean and keep it healthy then I'm ok with that. Lol

 

[REEFKEEPER10]

So do you get better growth with the red bulbs and do the algae scrubbers work better than fuges.

 

[Ace25]

Yes, I get much better algae growth with the red LEDs and I use about 1/4th the power compared to CFLs. I wouldn't say an algae scrubber works better than a well designed fuge, but an algae scrubber usually takes up a lot less room to do the same job and is very easy to do weekly cleanings on.

 

[REEFKEEPER10]

Cool. I might at least try some red LEDs over my fuge.

 

[zemuss]

interesting about the algae scrubber. I might try that. Is it easy to setup and can you conceal it so your don't hear the trickle of water. Any DIY guides around?

 

[REEFKEEPER10]

interesting about the algae scrubber. I might try that. Is it easy to setup and can you conceal it so your don't hear the trickle of water. Any DIY guides around?

Yep I the DIY section on this forum. Lots of people run them.

 

[Scuba George]

10% every week so I dont have to dose my tank with sups that contain phosphates


Three measures of Gordon's, one of vodka, half a measure of Kina Lillet. Shake it very well until it's ice-cold, then add a large thin slice of lemon peel. Got it?

 

[zemuss]

Cool thanks

 

[REEFKEEPER10]

10% every week so I dont have to dose my tank with sups that contain phosphates


Three measures of Gordon's, one of vodka, half a measure of Kina Lillet. Shake it very well until it's ice-cold, then add a large thin slice of lemon peel. Got it?

If you dose calcium and magnesium you still need to watch it. Some of them have phosphate for some reason. At least that is what I read awhile back. Thought you might want to know.

 

[Ace25]

10% every week so I dont have to dose my tank with sups that contain phosphates

Just curious, what supplements are you referring to that contain phosphates and how much phosphates are we talking about? Please link to a report/article showing this if you can.

 

[Scuba George]

Just curious, what supplements are you referring to that contain phosphates and how much phosphates are we talking about? Please link to a report/article showing this if you can.

Here you go one of many sites that refer to sup phosphates http://www.fishlore.com/aquarium-algae-control.htm


Three measures of Gordon's, one of vodka, half a measure of Kina Lillet. Shake it very well until it's ice-cold, then add a large thin slice of lemon peel. Got it?

 

[Scuba George]

Not to mention the preservatives in supplements have phosphates too just like frozen food.


Three measures of Gordon's, one of vodka, half a measure of Kina Lillet. Shake it very well until it's ice-cold, then add a large thin slice of lemon peel. Got it?

 

[Ace25]

Thanks, but I see no mention of supplements (alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium) containing phosphates in that article. Frozen food does, but Randy has proven that is of no concern. Some cheap carbon leaches phosphates but the carbon most people use is high quality (Rox) and not a concern either.

Aquarium Chemistry: Phosphate And Math: Yes You Need To Understand Both — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

 

[Scuba George]

Pretty sure that's why a lot of sup companies try to advertise phosphate free. Plus once I stopped dosing everything cleared in my tank. I couldnt think of a single source for phosphates, Other than I'm adding stuff to my tank everyday.


Three measures of Gordon's, one of vodka, half a measure of Kina Lillet. Shake it very well until it's ice-cold, then add a large thin slice of lemon peel. Got it?