0 Nitrate, 0.36 Phosphate... hmm

[TomBlakee]

Wondering the best way around this. I was purchasing RO water from my LFS initially as my RODI unit was broken. Measuring that water showed me the root of the issue.

I am running a phosphanitra remover and have been for a while now. I did 5X 20% water changes last week with the RODI 0TDS water due to a drop off in alkalinity and pH, expecting to drop the phosphates down with that, to no real success.

Current Parameters:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:0
Phosphate 0.3~
Alk:10.5
Cal:400
Mag:1240
pH:8.2
Salinity: 35ppt

Using the Red Sea coral pro salt currently, alk is kept high due to the higher phosphates, as soon as I allow it to drop slightly, one of the acans sulks. I have also noticed that my calcium takes a long time to deplete, meaning calcification is slow and I have noticed there’s no growth in the hystrix I have.
Alk depletes due to the pink coralline algae everywhere.

What is the most effective thing for me to do to drop this down and to keep everything happy? Protein skimmer is on 24/7 and the GFO is still in the back.

The tank is a Red Sea Reefer 250C Max.

My thoughts were to try to raise the nitrates, by taking the phosphanitra remover out to bump that up then start dosing NoPox?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Sallstrom]

Wondering the best way around this. I was purchasing RO water from my LFS initially as my RODI unit was broken. Measuring that water showed me the root of the issue.

I am running a phosphanitra remover and have been for a while now. I did 5X 20% water changes last week with the RODI 0TDS water due to a drop off in alkalinity and pH, expecting to drop the phosphates down with that, to no real success.

Current Parameters:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:0
Phosphate 0.3~
Alk:10.5
Cal:400
Mag:1240
pH:8.2
Salinity: 35ppt

Using the Red Sea coral pro salt currently, alk is kept high due to the higher phosphates, as soon as I allow it to drop slightly, one of the acans sulks. I have also noticed that my calcium takes a long time to deplete, meaning calcification is slow and I have noticed there’s no growth in the hystrix I have.
Alk depletes due to the pink coralline algae everywhere.

What is the most effective thing for me to do to drop this down and to keep everything happy? Protein skimmer is on 24/7 and the GFO is still in the back.

The tank is a Red Sea Reefer 250C Max.

My thoughts were to try to raise the nitrates, by taking the phosphanitra remover out to bump that up then start dosing NoPox?

Thanks in advance.

I work with mostly larger tanks, but here's what I would have done(and have done a couple of times in the same situation).

Start adding KNO3 so you'll get readings about 5-10ppm. Then slowly start adding a carbon source (like NoPox or ethanol). I like to use dosing pumps to spread the dosings over the day. Try to find a daily dose of KNO3 and carbon source that will keep NO3 still at say 5ppm, while the phosphate drops slowly.
And have patience

Don't know what Phosphanitra is, but if it reduces nitrate you might do well in removing it

 

[madweazl]

Have you tried dosing something like sodium nitrate to elevate your nitrates above 0? You may find that once nitrates are present, the phosphates will also come down. GFO is another consideration for the phosphates specifically.

 

[TomBlakee]

I work with mostly larger tanks, but here's what I would have done(and have done a couple of times in the same situation).

Start adding KNO3 so you'll get readings about 5-10ppm. Then slowly start adding a carbon source (like NoPox or ethanol). I like to use dosing pumps to spread the dosings over the day. Try to find a daily dose of KNO3 and carbon source that will keep NO3 still at say 5ppm, while the phosphate drops slowly.
And have patience

Don't know what Phosphanitra is, but if it reduces nitrate you might do well in removing it

Thanks, so I haven’t dove into the dosing scene of nitrates. What I have done is removed the phosphanitra remover out of the back sump, so I will see the effects over the next few days as to whether that is necessary, or whether the fish will produce enough to allow for nopox to work.

If not what are the steps? If I do end up bringing that phosphate down then will the alk need to follow for growth?

Thanks for the response.

 

[TomBlakee]

Have you tried dosing something like sodium nitrate to elevate your nitrates above 0? You may find that once nitrates are present, the phosphates will also come down. GFO is another consideration for the phosphates specifically.

I haven’t looked into that. Was thinking to move to RowaPhos? But does that still require trace nitrates?

Thanks

 

[Sallstrom]

Thanks, so I haven’t dove into the dosing scene of nitrates. What I have done is removed the phosphanitra remover out of the back sump, so I will see the effects over the next few days as to whether that is necessary, or whether the fish will produce enough to allow for nopox to work.

If not what are the steps? If I do end up bringing that phosphate down then will the alk need to follow for growth?

Thanks for the response.

There's a risk having low nitrate and dosing NoPox that you will get Cyanobacteria. So that's why I like to be on the safe side not getting too low by instead adding nitrate.

There are a few ways to adding nitrate, the one I'm familiar to is potassium nitrate(KNO3). It's often used in PMDD, a nutrient mix for planted fresh water tanks.
That a powder, easy to mix with RO water and to dose. I think you'll find the recipe if you do a search here on R2R for KNO3 dosing.

If you don't want to add nitrate, you could go for GFO/Rowaphos only. By adding a GFO filter you only(almost only) remove phosphate. You don't need to add nitrate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

IMO, it is more important for you to raise nitrate than lower the phosphate.

Water changes are never the best way to lower phosphate because even a 100% change may not drop it much due to the big reservoir of phosphate bound to rock and sand surfaces.

 

[Reefahholic]

I agree with Randy. Dose some Stump remover.

10 grams = 6.14 grams of NO3.
10 grams / 1 Liter = 6,140 ppm NO3

1 ML of the NO3 solution / 2 gallons will > your NO3 by 0.8 ppm.

PO4 can be easily < with Phosphate RX or LACI.

Your ratio is off and once you get it balanced the corals will start doing better again.

 

[Reefahholic]

Let me post two tanks with higher NO3 levels and look at the corals. Both guys talk about their NO3 and PO4. Having NO3 at least 3 and PO4 of at least 0.006 is a must IMO. I like my PO4 about 0.01 - 0.09 and NO3 5-10. I’d bring your NO3 up before you do anything else. Or do both slowly.

First tank is Diesel’s tank last night:


Second tank is The Dutch Reefer:

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

I agree with Randy. Dose some Stump remover.

For the sake of clarity, this is not what Randy recommended at all. In general, Randy has historically recommended against dosing stump remover. Here are 8 threads where Randy explicitly recommends dosing a food-grade nitrate solution over Spectracide or stump remover:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/is-spectracide-100-percent-kno3.352931/#post-4384044
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dosing-phosphate-and-nitrate-in-ato-water.428735/#post-4970465
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/about-to-start-dosing-stump-remover.318247/page-2#post-4753488
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/n...ead-0-how-to-increase-it.430778/#post-4980606
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/should-i-dose-nitrates.374630/page-3#post-4596256
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/n...uch-stump-remover-to-add.363251/#post-4499087
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/nitrate-dosing-via-ato.404628/#post-4893572
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/w...-to-raise-nitrates.365077/page-2#post-4543831

 

[Reefahholic]

Ohh sorry! Yeah, I’m sure there are way better options out there that are much more pure. This is just cheap, local, and it does work. When I said I agree with Randy...I didn’t mean that he suggested to dose the Stump Remover. I was agreeing that the OP should > the NO3 level.

What’s the best one to get? I’ll have to pick it up soon. I know Diesel had some Potassium Nitrate that he uses. I guess it’s time I go food grade!

Post a link here. I want the best stuff.

 

[DesertReefT4r]

Your no3 and po4 are out of balance. I recommend not dosing any no3 but feeding more and/or adding more fish to increase no3 naturally. To help knock down po4 in the mean time remove any gfo from the system and dose the tank with Phosphate Rx. Phosphate Rx is highly effective and removing po4 from the water so go slow. Reduce feeding foods with a lot of phosphorus, most pellet and flake foods have phosphorus and frozens are lower and cleaner foods. It is possible if you started with dead/dry live rock that your rock may have organics in it that are breaking down still and releasing po4. Carbon dosing will do nothing to reduce po4, only no3 so imo that is not beneficial in your case.

 

[Reefahholic]

chipmunkofdoom2 still waiting for your reply.

 

[TomBlakee]

So I removed the off brand GFO phosphanitra remover (Big in the UK) a couple of days ago. Reason i checked up on these levels was due to the massive diatom outbreak on the sand. I am feeding more to the fish that i have in my system to raise the levels, increased the flow around the sand bed.

Just yesterday did a big water change with 0TDS water to try to aid the phosphate.

If there is a natural way of doing this, i would prefer to.

Current Stocking:
Goldrim Tang
2 x Tangerine Clowns
2x Bangai Cardinals
1x Pink Scooter blend
3X Nas snails
5X Trochus snails
4X Turbos
1X cleaner shrimp

Thanks again.

 

[TomBlakee]

Your no3 and po4 are out of balance. I recommend not dosing any no3 but feeding more and/or adding more fish to increase no3 naturally. To help knock down po4 in the mean time remove any gfo from the system and dose the tank with Phosphate Rx. Phosphate Rx is highly effective and removing po4 from the water so go slow. Reduce feeding foods with a lot of phosphorus, most pellet and flake foods have phosphorus and frozens are lower and cleaner foods. It is possible if you started with dead/dry live rock that your rock may have organics in it that are breaking down still and releasing po4. Carbon dosing will do nothing to reduce po4, only no3 so imo that is not beneficial in your case.

The only food going into my system now is the occasional pellet, BUT 1 cube of mysis shrimp per day. All food is consumed by the fish.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

chipmunkofdoom2 still waiting for your reply.

S0rry, I didn't get a notification for this.

I use LoudWolf products from Etsy, both for nitrates and phosphates. Both of these options were recommended by Randy at one point or another and are graded materials, so they adhere to certain purity standards. They are shipped free and both cost only less than ten dollars respectively.

For nitrates, I chose sodium nitrate over potassium nitrate simply to avoid adding excess potassium to my system. The potassium added by KNO3 vs NaNO3 is relatively small, but still, I maintain trace elements with other methods and do not want excess K building up from nitrate dosing. Plus, sodium nitrate is actually more concentrated than potassium nitrate, so it takes less to make the same solution concentrations (with regard to nitrates).

 

[TomBlakee]

Your no3 and po4 are out of balance. I recommend not dosing any no3 but feeding more and/or adding more fish to increase no3 naturally. To help knock down po4 in the mean time remove any gfo from the system and dose the tank with Phosphate Rx. Phosphate Rx is highly effective and removing po4 from the water so go slow. Reduce feeding foods with a lot of phosphorus, most pellet and flake foods have phosphorus and frozens are lower and cleaner foods. It is possible if you started with dead/dry live rock that your rock may have organics in it that are breaking down still and releasing po4. Carbon dosing will do nothing to reduce po4, only no3 so imo that is not beneficial in your case.

Thanks, i will up the feed slightly and monitor the NO3. Where should i be aiming for my phosphate levels given the alkalinity?

Using the Red Sea Coral Pro Salt gives me a KH around 10.5~ so bringing the PO4 down will have what effect?

Thanks again