.08 PO4 Should I call in the Marines?

DrewBrees713

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Just tested my water with an ULR Hanna Phosphorous checker and the conversion is .08 po4 ...got algae on the back glass pane so I know nutrients are in the water column though I'm a light feeder. Added a TLF GFO reactor this morning to try to neutralize my problem. Should I call in the Marines(big hitters) like BioPellet,Zeo, carbon dosing? What are some of the effect of high phosphate? Browned out/pastel colors?
 
Check again a few more times and see if you get the same reading. That checker can vary greatly depending on how the test is performed. Too finicky for my taste.
 
Get back on Marsh, Dennis :)Gonna try to test tonight and subsequent days. I followed instruction to a T but yea, you only get two min before the checker timed out.
 
Get back on Marsh, Dennis :)Gonna try to test tonight and subsequent days. I followed instruction to a T but yea, you only get two min before the checker timed out.

Some imporant tips for accurate testing with the Hanna Phosphorus Checker:

1. don't fill the vial with a syringe, dip the vials directly into the water to fill for the Phosphate tests. This isn't needed for the other checkers, but the syringe may have residue that effects the phosphates. I noticed if I use my feeding syringe the fill the vial, it tests off the charts.

2. After putting the water sample in the vial, wipe off the glass and don't touch it anymore. Always wipe it down between phases.

3. Align the vial the SAME way as you calibrated it after adding the reagent (I keep the "10ml" writing facing perfectly forward)

4. After you shake the heck out of the sample after adding the reagent, before putting it back in the checker slowly swirl it and invert it to remove any microbubbles off of the glass. All of the reagent WON'T dissolve. Shake very quickly for about 60 seconds and slowly swirl and invert for the next 30 seconds. This will give you 30 seconds to clean the glass and re-align the vial in checker.

5. Finally, instead of just pressing the button to get the number instantly (after C.2), hold the button down until a timer appears. This gives the sample time to settle out and the results to be accurate. The timer is 3 minutes and will give you the reading after the countdown is over. I tested this and the results with no timer vary wildly. With the timer, results were consistently +/-2 ppb of my 8ppb levels between multiple tests. Without the timer, they were always extremely high, and all over the place, up to +20ppb, resulting between 15ppb and 25ppb when in actuality they were 8ppb.

Also, instead of just multiplying by 3 to get your phosphates from the phosphorus reading, use the actual equation: [HI-736 Reading] * 95 / 31 / 1000 = PPM Phosphate

Also, the HI-736 is by far the most accurate hobbyist colorometer of any sort on the market - compared to several thousand dollar lab equipment, it spot on. That can't be said for their Alk checker, but that is at least extremely consistent between tests and the error is always the same between tests. And the Ca checker is a complete waste.
 
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Yes, there are some tips to making your results with the Hanna more consistent, but...
Some imporant tips for accurate testing with the Hanna Phosphorus Checker:

1. don't fill the vial with a syringe, dip the vials directly into the water to fill for the Phosphate tests. This isn't needed for the other checkers, but the syringe may have residue that effects the phosphates. I noticed if I use my feeding syringe the fill the vial, it tests off the charts.
Actually, it's best to use a clean syringe to fill the cuvettes (plural, yes). I keep a dedicated testing syringe; the only it sees is pure tank water. Certainly using a dirty or food syringe will give you false positives. Relying on the line printed on the cuvette is not preferred, as it isn't necessarily an accurate measurement either (position of the line, variation in the glass thickness & shape, etc).

2. After putting the water sample in the vial, wipe off the glass and don't touch it anymore. Always wipe it down between phases.
Yes! Finger prints, or excess lint, on the cuvette can skew the test results. Use a lint-free cloth to wipe them down well before placing them in the checker.

3. Align the vial the SAME way as you calibrated it after adding the reagent (I keep the "10ml" writing facing perfectly forward)
This shouldn't make much difference, but might. The pickup in the checker is intentionally below the markings on the cuvette.

4. After you shake the heck out of the sample after adding the reagent, before putting it back in the checker slowly swirl it and invert it to remove any microbubbles off of the glass. All of the reagent WON'T dissolve. Shake very quickly for about 60 seconds and slowly swirl and invert for the next 30 seconds. This will give you 30 seconds to clean the glass and re-align the vial in checker.
Yes, bubbles will skew the test. But the reagent SHOULD be entirely dissolved.
Use both cuvettes for every test. Use one as the reference (C1) and the other then as the sample (C2).
Fill them both, and dump in the ENTIRE contents of the reagent pack into the C2 cuvette. Put the lid on and shake it VERY well, until the reagent dissolves entirely. Then wipe both cuvettes clean on the exterior with a lint-free cloth. Now before placing either of them in the checker, tap them repeatedly (I tap them gently -they are glass after all- on the counter-top) until ALL the micro-bubbles have
released to the surface. Now start the test with the reference (C1).

5. Finally, instead of just pressing the button to get the number instantly (after C.2), hold the button down until a timer appears. This gives the sample time to settle out and the results to be accurate. The timer is 3 minutes and will give you the reading after the countdown is over. I tested this and the results with no timer vary wildly. With the timer, results were consistently +/-2 ppb of my 8ppb levels between multiple tests. Without the timer, they were always extremely high, and all over the place, up to +20ppb, resulting between 15ppb and 25ppb when in actuality they were 8ppb.
Yes, you have to hold the button after placing the sample (C2) in the checker.

Also, instead of just multiplying by 3 to get your phosphates from the phosphorus reading, use the actual equation: [HI-736 Reading] * 95 / 31 / 1000 = PPM Phosphate
The equation is equivalent to multiplying by 3.066 and then dividing by 1000 (ppb to ppm). So multiplying by 0.03066 is mathematically the same thing.

Also, the HI-736 is by far the most accurate hobbyist colorometer of any sort on the market - compared to several thousand dollar lab equipment, it spot on. That can't be said for their Alk checker, but that is at least extremely consistent between tests and the error is always the same between tests. And the Ca checker is a complete waste.
 
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Very interesting tips there guys. When I try to place the vial into the checker it's purty snugde around the cylinder wall to the point where I have to forcefully shove it in. Anyone else has this problem? Also it says to dissolve the reagent for 2 mins but most of the time that only takes me like a few shake. Hope that doesn't screw up the end result.
 
No, the cuvette in mine fit easily in the checker; I haven't heard of the issue you describe.

Note the conversion at the end only applies if you're using the phosphorous checker (not the phosphate checker).
 
One of my vials fit more snug than the others. Not a problem. What are your nitrates at? My phosphates are about where yours are but I have little algae growth cause my biopellets keep the nitrates in check. I know every system is unique, just a thought.
 
Yes, there are some tips to making your results with the Hanna more consistent, but...

Evolved, your correct about using a dedicated syringe but a lot of people mix up syringes for a ton of different tests which is why I said use the vial directly - however a phosphate only syringe is the best option.

However, for the Phosphorus test, you don't need exactly 10ml of water (unlike the Alkalinity test) and all of the reagent ISN'T used. I did mix up the words "dissolve" and "react" but some of the bigger bits of particles may not dissolve completely and it isn't necessary. That's how the test works - using something called the "Ascorbic Acid Method". Basically, the amount of reagent that reacts phosphate in the water is how the colorometer measures the phosphate level - it detects the product of that reaction. The higher the phosphate, the more reagent is used. This is why if you have very low phosphates, you could theoretically get 2 tests out of each packet. If you take a look at the Hanna website, this is all explained. This is also why Hanna says not to sweat it if there is still a little reagent left in the packet because it isn't needed. Take a look at the two PDFs on Hanna's website Phosphorus Checker HC Handheld Colorimeter, HI 736| Hanna Instruments

The reason I always align the "10ml" text forward has to do with inconsistencies in the glass and any imperfections. If the detection sensor has an error due to diffraction through the glass, you want it to be consistent between tests. Because Hanna is using basically $2 cuvettes and not high-quality lab grade cuvettes made for spectrograpgy, I don't trust that they are similar enough not to throw off the tests. You can get higher quality cuvettes, but they are really expensive. This is why I use a single cuvette for the entire test and always align it the same way between steps. SOP for using high-end colorometric testing units with lab-grade glass does specify using 2 cuvettes (one for sample one for zeroing), but then again they are using IR and UV quarts cuvettes that cost like $90+ each.
 
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^ Ah, understand your points now, and I agree with you.

Fair point on using the same curvette for the entire test to eliminate it's variability, but I don't know if that variability is enough to produce measurable noise? Using them both is so much easier and less rushed than playing beat-the-clock with the checker to add C2. :p
 
Has anybody noticed that there seems to be an inconsistency with the reagents for the ULR checker? You will get different readings depending on what Lot # the reagent comes from. Sometimes there will be a large difference in results....
 
I think earlier lot are highly inaccurate to say the least. Gonna pick up some more reagent today so we'll see.

Btw my trates <5ppm
 
^ Ah, understand your points now, and I agree with you.

Fair point on using the same curvette for the entire test to eliminate it's variability, but I don't know if that variability is enough to produce measurable noise? Using them both is so much easier and less rushed than playing beat-the-clock with the checker to add C2. :p

I don't know if the cuvettes are variable enough to cause any increased errors, but I do it anyway! I used to use the two cuvette method for the first couple of months and then I got really used to doing it and I have never had it shut off on me in the past few months now that I have it down. I make sure the packet is cut and ready to go before turning on the unit (I cut 2 sides of the packet to make a "funnel" out of it. I doubt the 2 cuvette thing makes much of a difference, if at all - but hey, if the goal is to make it as precise as possibly, why not?

Has anybody noticed that there seems to be an inconsistency with the reagents for the ULR checker? You will get different readings depending on what Lot # the reagent comes from. Sometimes there will be a large difference in results....

The first few lots were bad and I think it was Lot #26 and Lot #28 were also bad. Hanna basically recalled those (you can look up the bad lots) - if you have any packets from Lot #26 or #28 give them a call and they will probably replace them for free if they are newer. When I bought my ULR Checker it had Lot #26 and it was all over the place. But my first 2 boxes were from Lot #30 and Lot #32 and both of those are dead on and consistent. I test between 6ppb and 11ppb every time and it slowly rises from when I change my GFO until I am ready to change it and it is never +/- 2 or 3 ppb out of that range. If you plotted it, it would be a very obvious trendline going from about 0.02ppm to 0.05ppm over the course of 4 to 6 weeks! Definitely super, super accurate and precise.

Take a look at the Advanced Aquarist article on it - the HI-736 is basically spot on all the way from 0-200ppb when compared to Lab Equipment. The Alkalinity checker that can't be said for and while it is within 10% of the Lab Equipment, it is consistently high by 5-10% over it's range. The Hanna ULR Checker is basically the most accurate and precise colorometer under about $1,200.
 
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Same here. I try to cut the packet beforehand to save time before the checker shutoff. Wish they had it set a little longer to avoid do over if the checker prematurely time out. Btw Hannah CS is almost non existence to put it nicely :(
 

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