#1 WHAT IF I TOLD YOU... Ammonia is causing your algae problems?

[Lasse]

I do not use peroxide the way yoy do - and this is my first tank with an oxydator. All my others have been free from peroxide treatment - and they have been algae free as long as my CUC have been large enough.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

Oxydators are really cool and been around a long time, I didn’t know you picked one up. They’re amazing in the way they meter it safely. Oxydators are very safe I like em, very well tested devices on YouTube they’re even used in sensitive freshwater bee shrimp tanks to keep a strong balance

They’re extremely good cyano preventers

 

[Lasse]

I used them back in the 80:ties in fresh water for many years - so I´m not a newcommer with them. I use a very low concentration - I use them in order to take away the yellowing substances - I do not do WC

Sincerely Lasse

 

[sde1500]

How else are a bunch of claims going to be balanced and tested, we post what we have to work with

Algae control is probably the least advanced portion of our hobby, thousands of losses still occur from uncontrolled invasions, good to see actual works where possible. The opening statement of this thread is now in challenge and that’s good for loss control/evolving our science. To be honest, the claim for posting an algae ‘Bible’ called for the counterbalance. Edit that part to state an algae ‘guideline’ and edit out the anti peroxide stuff until peroxide doesn’t provide the sole working example for the whole thread.

Nothing proposed is in anyway ground breaking. It really boils down to "got algae? Clean your tank". The general message being don't do anything drastic like dosing aggressively, throwing different chemicals at it, long blackouts, overstocking a CUC. Again, nothing ground breaking. Yea sure, should have said guidelines, not bible. But how is that anything that needs to be tested? Maintaining a relatively clean tank, both nutrient controls and detritus, plus physical removal of algae keeps it in check. Wonder if there is another thread out there, possibly even linked here, that talks about physical algae removal...You seem to have taken personal exception to the fact that dosing peroxide was called out. Others here even agree with not dosing peroxide. I don't see the big deal that someone advocated a method different than what you do.

Personally I'm a fan of using Fluconazole to fight back large algae growth. Sure its a drastic method, but it works better and faster than anything else I've ever seen, plus if we want to discuss thread size..

 

[Fish_Sticks]

Im proud to announce that this thread is being turned into an article on the reef2reef main page, within the next hour.

The original post was alright, but the discussions that followed are very impactful and productive. Thanks to everyone for contributing!

Edit:
Well maybe 3/4 hours, but still!

 

[jda]

According to the ammonia - For the book - it is valid for us but not for fish and especially not saltwater species (they not pee so much – if all) The excretion of ammonium occurs instead via specific cells / channels in the gills of aquatic organisms such as fish. Some people also highlite passive diffusion of NH3 (ammonia gas)

Yes, a very important distinction that I was not clear about. I saw a presentation once (I think from Fenner) that spoke about fish metabolism/biology and he mentioned that they would get rid of "urine" through the gills, scales and sometimes other areas like the eyes - there are a lot of different kind of fish. In any case, I was mostly meaning that it was not in the feces and I did not make this clear enough. Thanks Lasse.

 

[MabuyaQ]

The only bible we will ever need for algae control was written by Charles Darwin.

It is all about competition between desirable producers and consumers and undesirable producers and consumers.

So don't starve ( and I am not just talking about the elements N and P) your bacteria to the point that algae can take advantage of the situation because they will.

 

[brandon429]

How many entrants from the fluc thread seek the sand rinse thread for cyano correction

Fluc doesn't remove detritus, nor stem the next invasion, I let them know lol. But it's wonderful for about three types of algae, lifesaving for bryopsis for sure. I'd use it in a large tank for control for sure, the rest would be cleaned.

 

[Millimylilly]

do not make sudden changes. do not use anything that can be described as a fast fix.

Im sure thats one way to go about it and that those are tactics that can work for some people; however, the algae bible cannot budge on that idea of no quick changes/instant gratification as they go against the algae bible's philosophies of reef keeping, patience. If you break any of the algae bible rules, then the whole principle of patience is lost.

The issue with hydrogen peroxide and blackouts, in addition to stressing corals and fish, is that they are hotfixes. While it is true that these can kill the algae, I simply won't use them or recommend them. Patience is more important. As soon as you've done one of those strategies, you've already lost, in my book.

Patience and ideologies aside, I can't recommend these practices to anyone. Most of the people will just pour h2o2 into their tank and not do anything to physically help the bacteria. The real root of the issue is the detritus, or a high bioload as @saltyfilmfolks said. That is what I would want a new hobbyist or a clueless struggling hobbyist to focus on. And for them to understand more about algae and the role it plays in their aquarium. Algae is not an evil tank crashing maniac.

It shifts their focus greatly from them being fooled into thinking that that they can, and should, be trying to eliminate algae, into them knowing that they are to be controlling algae with good practices.

Turning the lights off is solitary confinement for the fish and starving the corals of light. The algae could care less about light.

Bacteria grow too slow to replace the algae that is burned off when using h2o2 or lights off strategies anyways. The algae will just grow back. That is why this practices of patience and the maintenance routines of algae bible will work more effectively. Long term they allow you to potentially keep more fish, and not harm anything in the process.

AND THEN, there is the whole group of people who have no idea ammonia is what is causing their algae. Its mind-blowing how common this misconception is. A new person goes onto the forums and have a bombardment of people asking them what their nitrates/phosphates are, instead of pointing at detritus, bio-load, and ammonia. This post was specifically written so that I can copy and paste the algae bible into every single algae problem question thread that comes up and have new reefers following proper practices instantly, not hotfixes.

Is QT fish in a closed 5 gal solitary confinement? And should we not do this?

 

[Fish_Sticks]

Is QT fish in a closed 5 gal solitary confinement? And should we not do this?

I would ask why your QT tank is only 5 gallons, when you can easily go buy a 20 gallon from your LFS for 20-30$. The additional stability you gain by increasing your water volume 3x is, well, 3x as great. I am currently writing a provocative QT article, so hopefully that will have more information for you.

Good job quarantining your fish, or should I say... rehabilitating! *hint hint*

 

[Mark]

There were experiments conducted 20+ years ago on pristine reefs where they partitioned off sections of reef with a barrier that prevented grazers from getting to that section. The end result was that those areas became overgrown with algae. If you ever go diving, you can witness algae farms maintained by nesting damselfish. They chase away all grazers in order to build a suitable nest for their eggs. The takeaway from those observations aligns with @Thales, @Lasse , myself, and others argue. Even in pristine reef conditions, algae gets the upperhand on corals if there are no algae consumers. Turf algae is ever present, but mowed down by grazers and kept in check. Walter Adey made this argument in his Dynamic Aquaria texts 30 years ago. In my experience, tweaking your organic load, redfield ratio, whatever only shifts which algae you are combating. Which is a good way to shift the advantage to algae that is easily managed by grazers.

 

[Thales]

The method when facing algae issues is to gradually and overtime:

Remove detritus
Increase surface area for bacteria
Manually remove or brush off algae
Address dead spots and detritus collection areas
Addressing your equipment
Then consider adding herbivores depending on how the algae reacts over the months to your actions.

That is common wisdom, but is any of it true?
I tend to think a lot of it is post hoc reasoning, as there are so many examples of tanks that do all these things and still have algae problems.

 

[Thales]

I think it isn't the presented methodology that people are reacting to, I think it is the truth claims.

 

[Fish_Sticks]

That is common wisdom, but is any of it true?
I tend to think a lot of it is post hoc reasoning, as there are so many examples of tanks that do all these things and still have algae problems.

Well, it depends on what you define as an algae problem. This is a strategy to control an extreme algae outbreak. I once met somebody at the LFS frag bin and she told me she takes her rocks out weekly and scrubs off every last bit of algae off with a steel wire brush. She was an algae phobe. I see manageable amounts of algae as highly beneficial my their aquariums. If you're telling me that sombody has GHA growing on their glass and this tactic didn't work, I'd tell you they didn't wait long enough, are probably impatient, and wont be very successful at reefkeeping anyways.

Do you have any citations/evidence for the ammonia stuff? I'd love to read them. Thanks!

If you want to question something I've written;
try the theory that algae overtaking the bacteria is what causes an outbreak, given no changes to bioload or feeding. Nobody has touched that yet except for @Lasse and it would make a great discussion.

I'm not gonna prove that algae prefers ammonia as it's primary food source. My grandma knows that and several others have voiced the same.

 

[Crested]

Anyone else getting a passive aggressive/slightly hostile vibe from this thread? Haha

 

[Mastiffsrule]

@jda Well heres what I came up with as I cook my dinner.

People have to start cooking grilled cheese before they make a 5 course meal with beef wellington.

Kinda wondering what you did have for dinner?;Jawdrop

According to my last post I had put my 2 cents in, but I found a penny today.

Some background on me. I am 49. Had tanks since I was 22. I actually started with a crayola gimmick tank. Since then I have always had tanks. I once carried my 55 up 2 flight when I moved in college on my back. That is devotion.

The information in this thread is great, but I also am wondering where Fishstick meant to go at the beginning. I took it as a good read to help the general fish keeper. It had good and bad. But I think it was intended as help for all. To me, it got muddled into a lot of debate in Chemistry and I think the intended message got lost along the way.

Is there any take away all agreed on that was repeated throughout we could focus on to help average joes. I do like the info in the thread and the debate. How many of us would really be able to read this and walk away with a confident of a plan of attack.

Any way, I digress. I am new to posting forums so I hope no one was offended and I made a valid point. If not don’t worry, chances are I will not find another penny Friday. Instead i am going to cook whatever fish sticks made.

 

[Fish_Sticks]

Anyone else getting a passive aggressive/slightly hostile vibe from this thread? Haha

Would it help if we used smileys in all posts? or maybe exclamation marks! and wink
We're all just asking big questions and proposing a big solutions, so its going to be a little serious and straight forward. If this was a show us your tank thread, it would be nice and jokes, but you probably wouldn't learn much. I wouldn't take anything said on the internet personally lol.

Kinda wondering what you did have for dinner?;Jawdrop

According to my last post I had put my 2 cents in, but I found a penny today.

Some background on me. I am 49. Had tanks since I was 22. I actually started with a crayola gimmick tank. Since then I have always had tanks. I once carried my 55 up 2 flight when I moved in college on my back. That is devotion.

The information in this thread is great, but I also am wondering where Fishstick meant to go at the beginning. I took it as a good read to help the general fish keeper. It had good and bad. But I think it was intended as help for all. To me, it got muddled into a lot of debate in Chemistry and I think the intended message got lost along the way.

Is there any take away all agreed on that was repeated throughout we could focus on to help average joes. I do like the info in the thread and the debate. How many of us would really be able to read this and walk away with a confident of a plan of attack.

Any way, I digress. I am new to posting forums so I hope no one was offended and I made a valid point. If not don’t worry, chances are I will not find another penny Friday. Instead i am going to cook whatever fish sticks made.

If anyone made it through the 5 pages, Im sure they came up with their own thoughts about what has been said. Thats the most important thing for me. I learned quite a bit.

Also it was alfredo linguine and a bunch of broccoli

 

[Lasse]

try the theory that algae overtaking the bacteria is what causes an outbreak, given no changes to bioload or feeding. Nobody has touched that yet except for @Lasse and it would make a great discussion.

I do not think that algae can take over the environment from the heterotrophic bacteria if there is a enough of DOC in the water. (and algae release DOC) Consider that microalgae normally have a growth rate that will double the biomass in 16 - 24 hours - many heterotrophic bacteria have a double time of the biomass around off 0.5 hour an lesser. They algae will be outcompeted by the bacteria every day of the year. It's normally only the amount of available DOC that will hinder the growth of bacteria.

There has also been some investigation of natural reefs where grazers has disappear - the algae takeover will lead to a bacteria driven ecosystem instead of a coral driven system.

Anyone else getting a passive aggressive/slightly hostile vibe from this thread? Haha

It's a tough discussion - yes - but aggresive and hostil - I do not see it that way

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Monkeytank]

I do not use peroxide the way yoy do - and this is my first tank with an oxydator. All my others have been free from peroxide treatment - and they have been algae free as long as my CUC have been large enough.

Sincerely Lasse

Can you define CUC large enough? How many of what items do you recommend for a good CUC?

 

[Lasse]

I´m sorry - I miss that question in another thread - but i have answered it here in step 9 and here

Sincerely Lasse