#1 WHAT IF I TOLD YOU... Ammonia is causing your algae problems?

[Belgian Anthias]

ANAMMOX does not need a substrate and are very common in our oceans

By oceans, you mean areas in the ocean where D/O is below 0.05ppm?

OMZ, oxygen minimum zones. Whitin the OMZ , created due to high activity and high oxygen consumption, oxygen can not be delivered in time to fulfill the demand, anoxic zones may be created. The condition is called anoxic when the DO drops below +- 0,5ppm. This condition is also created within a nitrifying biofilm at a normal DO level ( Micro OMZ) Also in an aquarium, in places with a low water exchange ratio or when high oxygen demand exceeds the supply.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

The process is called DNRA. (Dissimilative nitrate reduction to ammonium) DNRA keeps nitrogen in the system. DNRA and heterotrophic denitrification takes place simultaneously in the same zone. Normally DNRA is responsible for +- 16% of the nitrate reduction, depending of the C:N ratio. When the C:N ratio increases DNRA increases

I can see why ANAMMOX isn't in our aquariums, if it were, and was the only source to dissimilative ammonia and nitrites, there would be no nitrates. End product be N2. If it is in our aquarium hard to detect.

Sorry for bold text. No control

 

[Lasse]

There is no such thing as an anaerobic substrate

Of cause it is. A sandbed or sediment that is anaerobic is an anaerobic substrate as an example. Where do you have the information that the anammox bacteria is -

They are very common in open water

All sources I have seen says in sediments - it means a substrate. and the orginal discovery was done at fludized bed (means substrate) during anaerobic circumstances.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Ammmox occurs at depths of 200-1000 meters, bacteria at that depth consume DOC and so deplete oxygen. Also if temperatures in water high less oxygen. Not even close to reefs. If by a reef that reef is dead.
Open ocean.

In your description of AMMOMOX professor you forgot some pertinent details

 

[Belgian Anthias]

There is no such thing as an anaerobic substrate.

So many posting here, I'm assuming someone said anaerobic substrate, I mention anaerobic process. Because dissolve oxygen below substrates from 1 mm to 2mm begins this process.

In an active nitrifying biofilm denitrification was measured at a dept of 0,3mm.( Yamamotto) Autotrophic dentrification was found taking place at a DO of 3ppm (Hignette).. It takes also place in the coral holobiont, everywhere in fact where there is active live. The enzymes responsible for nitrate reduction are activated only when no free oxygen is present. In the micro world, the area where no oxygen is available may be very small and de condition very local and my change rapidely. For some organisms the aera is limited to there own body and everything is taking place internally.
A lot of organisms, mainly heterotrophs, are able to perform nitrification and denitrification simultaneously in nomal aquarium conditions.
What we do to optimize those processes is trying to support the condition , increase the area and avoid changes.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Ammmox occurs at depths of 200-1000 meters, bacteria at that depth consume DOC and so deplete oxygen. Also if temperatures in water high less oxygen. Not even close to reefs. If by a reef that reef is dead.
Open ocean.

In your description of AMMOMOX professor you forgot some pertinent details

Do you have a reference for that statement made? Would be valuable information!
ANAMMOX is found in the coral holoboint of many corals!
It is found in aquarium and aquaculutre bio filters when looked for.
For the moment ANAMMOX is considdered to be of no importance for the ammonium reduction capacity ( carrying capacity) in aquaculture or aquarium systems .

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Of cause it is. A sandbed or sediment that is anaerobic is an anaerobic substrate as an example. Where do you have the information that the anammox bacteria is -
All sources I have seen says in sediments - it means a substrate. and the orginal discovery was done at fludized bed (means substrate) during anaerobic circumstances.

Sincerely Lasse

Well that is your opinion but in biology a substrate can not be aerobic or anaerobic, it may be in oxic or anoxic circumstances. Sand does not use oxygen. Aerobic and anaerobic is used for the way and how oxygen is used. One has anoxic and oxic cIrcomstances and an aerobic or anaerobic live stile. A bacterium can use an anaerobic pathway in oxic conditions or circumstances.

Please use the provided references ! all information in the referenced articles is properly referenced, the references can be consulted just by opening the link.
Update your sources.

Een ANAMMOX bio-reactor, foto van deUniversiteit Radbout Nijmegen..

 

[Lasse]

And in that reactor is it only bacteria and water? No substrate what ever? What I can see - it is a fluidised bed reactor. The question is - what consists the "bed" of? The bed is the substrate for the attaching bacteria IMO

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I have to correct myself! It was not ANAMMOX that was first isolated from sediment of a marine aquarium filter. It where AOA ( archaea), It happened at " The Seatle Aquarium" Sorry for that mix-up.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

And in that reactor is it only bacteria and water? No substrate what ever? What I can see - it is a fluidised bed reactor. The question is - what consists the "bed" of? The bed is the substrate for the attaching bacteria IMO

Sincerely Lasse

And nutrients!
There is no bed! From this research a reactor was developped on an industrial scale for further research, which is in use.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I have to correct myself! It was not ANAMMOX that was first isolated from sediment of a marine aquarium filter. It where AOA ( archaea), It happened at " The Seatle Aquarium" Sorry for that mix-up.

Correction too, threw curve ball, see if your paying attention.


OMZ occurs at depths of 200-1000 meters, bacteria at that depth consume DOC and so deplete oxygen. Also if temperatures in water high less oxygen. Not even close to reefs. If by a reef that reef is dead.
Open ocean.

https://depts.washington.edu/aog/oxygen-minimum-zones/

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Well that is your opinion but in biology a substrate can not be aerobic or anaerobic, it may be in oxic or anoxic circumstances. Sand does not use oxygen. Aerobic and anaerobic is used for the way and how oxygen is used. One has anoxic and oxic cIrcomstances and an aerobic or anaerobic live stile. A bacterium can use an anaerobic pathway in oxic conditions or circumstances.

Please use the provided references ! all information in the referenced articles is properly referenced, the references can be consulted just by opening the link.
Update your sources.

Een ANAMMOX bio-reactor, foto van deUniversiteit Radbout Nijmegen..

No one says substrate is aerobic or anaerobic, it's a medium for bacteria to attach, congregate, just like bacteria on our hands will attach and multiply. That's why we need to wash them when possible. There's conditions in substrate, depending on fluid flow, type substrate,type fluid,etc.... which ORP determines which type of bacteria will thrive.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

A lot of hetertrophs are able to perform the dream as they are able to perform simultane nitrification and denitrification in oxic conditions but there effectiveness is very low and there roll in an aquarium is not known.

An other way is a nitrifying biofilter with suphur/ lime mix as substrate for the biofilm . In a selfsupporting nitrifying biofilm always simultane nitrification and denitrification takes place. By providing sulphur as a substrate the denitrification rate is increased considerably.

In an active aquarium dormant nitrifiers will have a hard time after wake up as the competion for nutrients and buildingmaterials may be high. They even may stay in dormant stage for some time afther addition and wait for more favoral conditions. Probably most of them will be removed by the skimmer as they will not attach to a substrate or will die after wake up not able to compete for assential building materials.
A big problem with most " bacteria in a bottle" is the fact that it is not known what exactly is added to the aquarium as a lot of those are very poor with information about the exact content. I will never ad a product to my aquarium not knowing what it contains, exactly!
Live cultures of known species can be obtained if needed.


Removing ammonia fast? Provide buildingmaterials and install a high C:N ratio ( N = N from ammonia, not total N)

Installing a good stable and reliable ammonia reduction capacity based on nitrification needs time and a normal C:N ratio!
Installing a manageable, stable and reliable ammonia reduction capacity based on nitrification needs a biofilter with calciumcarbonate substrate.
Installing a manageable, stable and reliable ammonia reduction capacity based on nitrification and simultane mixotrophic denitrification needs a biofilter with sulphur/ calciumcarbonate substrate.
The nitrification process does deplete alkalinty but not when the biofilm can grow on calcium carbonate media.


Nitrification and autotrophic denitrification processes both deplete alkalinity but not when the nitrifying biofilm grows on a mix of sulphur and calcium carbonate media. Calcium is produced.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

A lot of hetertrophs are able to perform the dream as they are able to perform simultane nitrification and denitrification in oxic conditions but there effectiveness is very low and there roll in an aquarium is not known.
An other way is a nitrifying biofilter with suphur/ lime mix as substrate for the biofilm . In a selfsupporting nitrifying biofilm always simultane nitrification and denitrification takes place. By providing sulphur as a substrate the denitrification rate is increased considerably.

In an active aquarium dormant nitrifiers will have a hard time after wake up as the competion for nutrients and buildingmaterials may be high. They even may stay in dormant stage for some time afther addition and wait for more favoral conditions. Probably most of them will be removed by the skimmer as they will not attach to a substrate or will die after wake up not able to compete for assential building materials.
A big problem with most " bacteria in a bottle" is the fact that it is not known what exactly is added to the aquarium as a lot of those are very poor with information about the exact content. I will never ad a product to my aquarium not knowing what it contains, exactly!
Live cultures of known species can be obtained if needed.


Removing ammonia fast? Provide buildingmaterials and install a high C:N ratio ( N = N from ammonia, not total N)

Installing a good stable and reliable ammonia reduction capacity based on nitrification needs time and a normal C:N ratio!
Installing a manageable, stable and reliable ammonia reduction capacity based on nitrification needs a biofilter with calciumcarbonate substrate.
Installing a manageable, stable and reliable ammonia reduction capacity based on nitrification and simultane mixotrophic denitrification needs a biofilter with sulphur/ calciumcarbonate substrate.
The nitrification process does deplete alkalinty but not when the biofilm can grow on calcium carbonate media.


Nitrification and autotrophic denitrification processes both deplete alkalinity but not when the nitrifying biofilm grows on a mix of sulphur and calcium carbonate media. Calcium is produced.

Sulfur denitrators up my alley.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

No one says substrate is aerobic or anaerobic, it's a medium for bacteria to attach, congregate, just like bacteria on our hands will attach and multiply. That's why we need to wash them when possible. There's conditions in substrate, depending on fluid flow, type substrate,type fluid,etc.... which ORP determines which type of bacteria will thrive.

I think it was just a splitting of semantic hairs between aerobic/anaerobic and oxic/anoxic.

Bacteria can function aerobically or anaerobically, but the state of the substrate is either oxic or anoxic.

 

[Brew12]

In an active nitrifying biofilm denitrification was measured at a dept of 0,3mm.( Yamamotto) Autotrophic dentrification was found taking place at a DO of 3ppm (Hignette).. It takes also place in the coral holobiont, everywhere in fact where there is active live. The enzymes responsible for nitrate reduction are activated only when no free oxygen is present. In the micro world, the area where no oxygen is available may be very small and de condition very local and my change rapidely. For some organisms the aera is limited to there own body and everything is taking place internally.
A lot of organisms, mainly heterotrophs, are able to perform nitrification and denitrification simultaneously in nomal aquarium conditions.
What we do to optimize those processes is trying to support the condition , increase the area and avoid changes.

I'm not sure if you realize that your links are not readily available to the public. Do you have another source to view the information at?

 

[Lasse]

Well that is your opinion but in biology a substrate can not be aerobic or anaerobic, it may be in oxic or anoxic circumstances. Sand does not use oxygen. Aerobic and anaerobic is used for the way and how oxygen is used. One has anoxic and oxic cIrcomstances and an aerobic or anaerobic live stile. A bacterium can use an anaerobic pathway in oxic conditions or circumstances.

And you mean that this is a wrong use of the word aerobic and anaerobic?

Een ANAMMOX bio-reactor, foto van deUniversiteit Radbout Nijmegen..

As I understand - it is an active sludge reactor and the substrate for the bacteria is sludge with a sludge age of more than 20 days. It is not a bacteria plankton but bacteria that form biofilms at sludge aggergations as I understand.

@Jomama I think you will find these two references readable. And it is only to click - and it will opens for your reading. first reference, second reference

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

And you mean that this is a wrong use of the word aerobic and anaerobic?




As I understand - it is an active sludge reactor and the substrate for the bacteria is sludge with a sludge age of more than 20 days. It is not a bacteria plankton but bacteria that form biofilms at sludge aggergations as I understand.

@Jomama I think you will find these two references readable. And it is only to click - and it will opens for your reading. first reference, second reference

Sincerely Lasse

So Ammomox is everywhere, from first read link, more likely in our reefs. It's detected by
detection of their signature ladderane lipids and retrieval
of 16S rRNA sequences that cluster with known anammox
rRNA genes. But sounds like it's in our tanks.

Thanks Lasse, good reading material.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

ostost

Sulfur denitrators up my alley.

A sulphur denitrator as promoted in the US is in most cases kept anoxic by limiting the flow!! This is an aplication of the BADES process which I do not support. Small reactors, as sometimes used in home aquaria, are difficult to manage and a lot of bad exeperiences where caused by the way they where used. The results are very poor for keeping a low nitrate level at a high input. This does not mean such a reactor does not work very well for lowering a high nitrate level, this when managed propperly. I can not advice a sulphur denitrator, managed this way, for the use in a live support system, as the risk for human error is high, reactors used are often to small.

The principle of BADES is used in marine aquaria for about 30 years now and BADES reactors as used in MAAO in the 90' where and are NOT kept anoxic after start up!!

A sulphure denitrator does not remove ammonia-nitrogen!! A sulphur denitrator or any denitrator does not change a thing to the ammonia reduction capacity and the max bio-load.

Elemental Sulphur granules can also be used as a substrate for a nitrifying bio-filter. A manageable nitrifying bio-filter which does not produce nitrate can be created. No reactors are needed. Bio-reactors can be used for BADES if full control over the nitrogen cycle in the system is needed. There are differnent ways to manage a BADES reactor.

An example: Make a tube of +- 4-5 cm with filtercloth of 0,5 cm, 2 layers, length as desired. Fill the tube with a mix of sulphur/ oyster shell grit, and hang them in a refuge. One may place such a roll or rolls also in a sump or even in the display but in that case one may not be able to mange the nitrate level as desired. It will take +- 3-4 weeks for the BADES column to develop the desired capacity. One may use as many rolls as nessary.


One can also just put a layer sulphur/aragonite mix of +- 2cm thick on the bottom and cover it with a filtercloth of +- 1cm. A lot diffent ways for aplication are possible.
Water may not be forced to flow true the media but must flow arround it!

One will be amazed of the result! And it just will cost the effort.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I'm not sure if you realize that your links are not readily available to the public. Do you have another source to view the information at?

One just has to register for entering the Makazi Baharini wiki. If an action denied page is shown there should be a link on it to the registration page. One just has to register once. A login code is send to the email entered at registration. Registration just needs a user name and working email .