125G SPS thriving to RTN/STN

[Asthix]

Did the chemiclean work?

I've not tried in the end, Cipro must have put a big dent in my bacterial population already, not to nuke the tile right after.

I'm trying now Witch hazel treatment, let's see.

I've lost 95% of my tank, 10k$+ and 3 years of dedication, that's the worst thing that could ever happened but anyway.

At least 5 lbs in that bucket

 

[thepotoo]

This is an incredibly painful thread, and I'm afraid I have very little to add here, but

I can see that since I've installed the UVC light directly in the tank

you didn't put the UV light directly in the tank, did you? It's inside some kind of case/cover and not blasting UV light on the livestock, right?

 

[SPS247]

I've not tried in the end, Cipro must have put a big dent in my bacterial population already, not to nuke the tile right after.

I'm trying now Witch hazel treatment, let's see.

I've lost 95% of my tank, 10k$+ and 3 years of dedication, that's the worst thing that could ever happened but anyway.

At least 5 lbs in that bucket

Sorry for your loses! I have similar stuff happening too just following along.

 

[acesfull44]

OMG this is awful man. Absolutely brutal.

 

[ELChingonsReef]

The relationship between carbon and many types of these episodes is true! That has been happenning in my systems with zoanthids. I believe that not only the excess or sudden removal of some of the nutrients by he carbon, but also the stress of light change with the removal, when sudden. I strongly believe that the carbon releases some weird stuff in the water, used in the process of production! I have tried way too many types of carbon brands in my life, but I don't use any carbon anymore! The so called "bacterial infections" in my tank stopped at once when I stopped using activated carbon.

Also the excess of the administration of amino acids has been one of the things associated with some of my worse nightmares during years. I am a stronger believer in dosing aminos by hand only! I dose drops per week in my 75gal. and that is positive on the system! It does a boost on the zoas, but other organisms will take advantage of excess aminos, like bacteria and algae. Mike Paletta has been observing that also with some types of aminos!
There are too many microorganisms that play with attacking our corals and zoas. It's great to see some of the pictures here and remember things that have happened in my zoa system in the past. Many of the things I had in mind have been published here. Great thread.

I'll end this post saying that one of the best things we could do to avoid any type of "necrosis" (or the so called bacterial infection) is to quarantine the new stock for months without adding anything in that period to that quarantine. Setting up a system using only synthetic salt and dry rocks with bottled bacteria to start the main and the quarantine system. I think that is the only way to keep those pests out. Just the fact that we wouldn't introduce them is the simplest solution for the problem!

I am so sorry for the losses of your Acros!

I'm watching this post as a preventive measure. My acropora are doing well at the moment. I have a 1.5 year old mixed reef. I started with dry rock. I don't know if that was a mistake or not being that the dry marco rock seems to bind phosphate and I have a hard time keeping up phosphate. But so far everything is okay. But I know how fast things can turn tragic. I do run carbon in my tank and UV 24hrs a day. I worry more now in the winter with the drop in PH . My tank runs a steady PH of 8.0 in the summer to 7.8 in the winter at its lowest point. Thats usually in the morning before the lights come on. I use a co2 scrubber but it doesn't help much in the winter. In your opinion what causes these STN problems and is there anything else I can do to keep this from happening to me?

 

[ELChingonsReef]

I had the same issue about 2 years ago with Ostreopsis dinos and coral lose. I lost all my sps and most of my LPS only a hammer and duncan coral survived. It started with a small bloom of cyano that I treated with Chemi Clean. Almost by the next day cyano shifted to Ostreopis. I 100% blame the Chemi. Clean for bringing out the dinos. It killed off bacteria and shifted the biological balance in favor of the bad organisms. In the end I had to do a soft reboot of the tank. Removed all sand, cleaned all live rock, got more live rock for mature reek tanks, added a bunch of pods, added UV and carbon, stopped all water changes for several months. Once green hair algea was taking off I started to deal with that and started water changes again. It took some time to get the tank balanced back out again but dinos have not returned since.

I got dinos and cyano. I waited until the dinos were gone until I used chemiclean. Then after chemiclean I got dinos again. My acropora are doing well even though the dinos and cyano. They survived the chemiclean treatment. You said you didn't do a water change for months. I'm wondering why? I'm wondering if I should do the same. I'm honestly having trouble deciding what to do next with the tank. Should I do water change or not or should I wait to see if the dinos return? Should I dose trace elements? I feel like if I do something I shouldn't ill start having RTN problems

 

[ELChingonsReef]

I've not tried in the end, Cipro must have put a big dent in my bacterial population already, not to nuke the tile right after.

I'm trying now Witch hazel treatment, let's see.

I've lost 95% of my tank, 10k$+ and 3 years of dedication, that's the worst thing that could ever happened but anyway.

At least 5 lbs in that bucket

Man that sucks . I'm terrified that that's a possibility with my tank too. So far my acropora are okay but you never know. Our tanks are so complex it's impossible to pinpoint exactly what's going on 100% . I've been through dinos a very bad cyano problem and chemiclean. And so far I've been ok . But I still worry. It's actually stressful.

 

[njreefkeeper]

I got dinos and cyano. I waited until the dinos were gone until I used chemiclean. Then after chemiclean I got dinos again. My acropora are doing well even though the dinos and cyano. They survived the chemiclean treatment. You said you didn't do a water change for months. I'm wondering why? I'm wondering if I should do the same. I'm honestly having trouble deciding what to do next with the tank. Should I do water change or not or should I wait to see if the dinos return? Should I dose trace elements? I feel like if I do something I shouldn't ill start having RTN problems

I’ve experienced across multiple tanks started with dry rock that dinos are something we all have to deal with at the onset. They’re one of the oldest lived organisms of the sea; and ever present in our tanks. We all say biodiversity and all the other much trumpeted stuff these days, but it’s more complex I think. Many add bottled bacteria with varied success rates.

I heard Julian Sprung mention that dinoflagellate outbreaks are caused by an imbalance in our system. Many dose nitrates thinking it’ll work, but to me that doesn’t seem as efficient as ammonia production. Nitrate is simply the end product…fertilizer for lack of a better term. But ammonia production is what kickstarts cycles and multiples bacteria. No, I’m not saying dose ammonia to your aquarium. Hear me out on this (or humor me if you will).

Back when everyone was using live rock, dinos were never a problem. That magic microfauna and bacteria came in ready to go after your cycle. Then people didn’t want the pests that came along with all that biodiversity on live rock. People were literally taking perfectly good live rock and giving it a muriatic acid bath to kill every living organism on the rock to start clean. This was mostly the people that were running ULNS/carbon dosing vodka, sugar, vinegar, etc. Many didn’t even dose bacteria. MB7 was a new product. Not everyone trusted it and Zeovit was just coming on the scene. So why did these barren environments not get dinos but now they do? I think the answer lies in how fast your good bacteria can outcompete any invasive nuisances like dinos. You can add a lot of bacteria products but they can’t hold a candle to what happens when you start introducing a carbon source. Any excess is skimmed out: and you better have a good skimmer! Dosing MB7 barely ever affects skimmer prom when used alone. Add some vodka to your mb7 and it’s the equivalent to an engine running nitrous. Carbon dosers were encouraged to add herbivores and other fish pretty darn fast…within a day or two…and feed them heavy!!!!. I truly believe that if reefers with new systems can start their systems as a ULNS with carbon dosing (for at least the first year) that dinos simply won’t be an issue. They’ll always be there, but outcompeted heavily from the onset. As for corals, maybe forego adding any for at least 10 months. I know. I know. But patience is a virtue; especially in this hobby. It’s obvious that new tanks that get cyano probably shouldn’t run chemiclean. The bacterial beds just aren’t established enough to compete with the impending bacterial die off from an indiscriminate antibiotic. After all, chemiclean is touted as a “red slime” remover. Cyano is a bacteria; not an algae. So the cycle will repeat, dinos take hold and re-establish hierarchy. Having the patience that first year is just so key to success nowadays.

my .02

 

[ELChingonsReef]

I’ve experienced across multiple tanks started with dry rock that dinos are something we all have to deal with at the onset. They’re one of the oldest lived organisms of the sea; and ever present in our tanks. We all say biodiversity and all the other much trumpeted stuff these days, but it’s more complex I think. Many add bottled bacteria with varied success rates.

I heard Julian Sprung mention that dinoflagellate outbreaks are caused by an imbalance in our system. Many dose nitrates thinking it’ll work, but to me that doesn’t seem as efficient as ammonia production. Nitrate is simply the end product…fertilizer for lack of a better term. But ammonia production is what kickstarts cycles and multiples bacteria. No, I’m not saying dose ammonia to your aquarium. Hear me out on this (or humor me if you will).

Back when everyone was using live rock, dinos were never a problem. That magic microfauna and bacteria came in ready to go after your cycle. Then people didn’t want the pests that came along with all that biodiversity on live rock. People were literally taking perfectly good live rock and giving it a muriatic acid bath to kill every living organism on the rock to start clean. This was mostly the people that were running ULNS/carbon dosing vodka, sugar, vinegar, etc. Many didn’t even dose bacteria. MB7 was a new product. Not everyone trusted it and Zeovit was just coming on the scene. So why did these barren environments not get dinos but now they do? I think the answer lies in how fast your good bacteria can outcompete any invasive nuisances like dinos. You can add a lot of bacteria products but they can’t hold a candle to what happens when you start introducing a carbon source. Any excess is skimmed out: and you better have a good skimmer! Dosing MB7 barely ever affects skimmer prom when used alone. Add some vodka to your mb7 and it’s the equivalent to an engine running nitrous. Carbon dosers were encouraged to add herbivores and other fish pretty darn fast…within a day or two…and feed them heavy!!!!. I truly believe that if reefers with new systems can start their systems as a ULNS with carbon dosing (for at least the first year) that dinos simply won’t be an issue. They’ll always be there, but outcompeted heavily from the onset. As for corals, maybe forego adding any for at least 10 months. I know. I know. But patience is a virtue; especially in this hobby. It’s obvious that new tanks that get cyano probably shouldn’t run chemiclean. The bacterial beds just aren’t established enough to compete with the impending bacterial die off from an indiscriminate antibiotic. After all, chemiclean is touted as a “red slime” remover. Cyano is a bacteria; not an algae. So the cycle will repeat, dinos take hold and re-establish hierarchy. Having the patience that first year is just so key to success nowadays.

my .02

I'm at about the year and a half mark. My sps are growing at a good solid rate. But as it's been said before "when things are going well that's the time to be careful " I'm not sure if I made a bad decision with that chemiclean treatment but that red cyano was growing on my sps frag plugs. I felt I had to do something. What worries me the most is all that dry rock binding all that phosphate. Eventually the rock or sand bed or even both will reach a point where they can't hold anymore P04 and I will get phosphate spikes that will cause RTN. I guess I'll have to deal with that when it comes. That's why I test phosphate almost every day. My tank is still a young tank . I didn't add acropora until my rock was covered in coralline. That took about a year. I think sometimes new reefers rush the addition of acropora to their tanks and that causes problems. Thanks for your response. What you said makes a lot of sense. Only time will tell if I will be successful with acans long term.

 

[njreefkeeper]

I'm at about the year and a half mark. My sps are growing at a good solid rate. But as it's been said before "when things are going well that's the time to be careful " I'm not sure if I made a bad decision with that chemiclean treatment but that red cyano was growing on my sps frag plugs. I felt I had to do something. What worries me the most is all that dry rock binding all that phosphate. Eventually the rock or sand bed or even both will reach a point where they can't hold anymore P04 and I will get phosphate spikes that will cause RTN. I guess I'll have to deal with that when it comes. That's why I test phosphate almost every day. My tank is still a young tank . I didn't add acropora until my rock was covered in coralline. That took about a year. I think sometimes new reefers rush the addition of acropora to their tanks and that causes problems. Thanks for your response. What you said makes a lot of sense. Only time will tell if I will be successful with acans long term.

If I get cyano now I just siphon and eventually it’ll go away. And the best way to fight phosphate is with a lot of corals that take it up.

 

[Asthix]

So today I've decided to take out every single pump for a clean.
I had an Jebao SCP-150 for 3 years that you could normally not take appart the rotor.
In the end i hit on the side which push it out.

The magnet was sealed in a white plastic case that i thought was ceramic. I deeply investigate it and found nothing at all, except few darker spot, which appear to me like an adhesive that kept a wet look inside.

I didn't reinstall it, replace with a gyre XF 350 with a brand new rotor.

Pump was never cleaned with vinegar, but just muriatic acid.
Rotor looked in perfect condition but i would have never trust a 1mm thick plastic to get a perfect seal.

Put the rotor in pure muriatic acid, as to if there is any leak, it will bubble because the acid will start to dissolve the magnet.
It start bubbling like so :

The longer inlet it, and the more cracks appear.
I think that the pressure increase did crack the plastic, i don't think muriatic acid can't break it this way.
I insist that, with a through inspection before that i CAN NOT see anything wrong.

I break it completely appart, the grey mat part is where the acid was in contact :

Do you think that if it was in contact with saltwater for at least 4 month(degradation on my SPS), there would be so little visible defect on it?
There is absolutely no orange or corrosion on it.

For the sake of it, it's sitting in a bucket with saltwater, I'd like to see how quickly that rust/react

 

[hunterallen40]

I'm trying now Witch hazel treatment, let's see.

I had a lot of trouble with SPS just suddenly melting away before I did a witch hazel treatment. It really was a game changer for me, so I'm hopeful it helps you! Best of luck!

 

[Asthix]

Conclusion in the end:
The damaged rotor of the Jebao DCP that is encased in plastic had cracked, not visible to the eye but enough to leak in the tank, and not measurable by 5 samples send to Fauna ICP.

After taking out the pump, changing about 20% per week, everything got back to normal, i bought some new frags that are well encrusting now.

Thanks all for your support, I've learned a lot, a now in case of a doubt, will just remove everything and just change

 

[ScottB]

I, too, have had that awful mess. Never understood what went wrong or what to do about it.

Edit: Any way to know this is still lurking other than seeing the aftermath?

I would argue virtually every (mature) tank has some variety of dinos barely living a marginal existence. Same with cyano, diatoms, coralline and hundreds of other microorganisms and bacterial films all competing for surface area.

Every so often, I will let my glass dirty up a bit and take a scrape from it. Under my microscope I will see dozens of tiny things including dinos every time.

 

[A. grandis]

I'm watching this post as a preventive measure. My acropora are doing well at the moment. I have a 1.5 year old mixed reef. I started with dry rock. I don't know if that was a mistake or not being that the dry marco rock seems to bind phosphate and I have a hard time keeping up phosphate. But so far everything is okay. But I know how fast things can turn tragic. I do run carbon in my tank and UV 24hrs a day. I worry more now in the winter with the drop in PH . My tank runs a steady PH of 8.0 in the summer to 7.8 in the winter at its lowest point. Thats usually in the morning before the lights come on. I use a co2 scrubber but it doesn't help much in the winter. In your opinion what causes these STN problems and is there anything else I can do to keep this from happening to me?

I only saw this message now.. anyways...
RTN and/or STN takes place when the coral is stressed for whatever reason it might be, like for example temperature fluctuation or any water parameter extreme, lack or variations in proper light qualities, the scratch or irritation of an object, animal or algae, and including some microscopic irritation that we would never be able to see among other things. The use of carbon can actually irritate and stress fish and corals, depending on the application and type. Those thins are what starts the process, opening the doors for the infection to be done by bacteria and/or other microscopic organisms. There are different types of microscopic organisms that will induce RTN and STN.

The best way to avoid would be to not introduce such organisms in the system, which is basically impossible for many. But the more you avoid to introduce detritus and anything from other systems, including water, besides the corals, the better chances you will have to avoid the infection. Like anything else it needs to be introduced in the system.

Quarantine or treatment with anti-bacterial of any new coral could also help avoiding the introduction of such organisms or at least avoid corals from systems that once had RTN or STN, but such treatment should be avoided because that normally kills also beneficial bacteria found on coral colonies. The bacteria that couses infection is normally dorment waiting for the right opportunity to act. Certain conditions can make a "good" bacteria to become a "bad" bacteria. The UV filter will help to kill anything in the water that is reproducing and is in the water column only, when used properly with the right size and flow. Those organisms that cause RTN and STN are located mostly on the rocks and/or on the corals themselves though, waiting for the opportunity to attack.

So it's basically impossible to prevent it to happen at 100% in any home system, but the more you clean the system, have good lighting, good water quality, and keep the stability, the better chances you will have to prevent it.
On thing people need to pay attention is that light is one of the most important aspects of reefing and we should try to follow the example we have in nature and offer the so called "full spectrum" as much as possible IMO. Water motion is SO important too!!

If RTN or STN happens simply turn off the pumps and cut off an inch from the infected area where the tissue is still healthy, carefully siphoning out the surrounding water. I use Lugol's after cutting off infected zoanthids (bacterial infections) with great results and that could also be done for SPS. Make sure you find out what the stress is and fix it.
Grow some Acros for me!

 

[A. grandis]

I'm watching this post as a preventive measure. My acropora are doing well at the moment. I have a 1.5 year old mixed reef. I started with dry rock. I don't know if that was a mistake or not being that the dry marco rock seems to bind phosphate and I have a hard time keeping up phosphate. But so far everything is okay. But I know how fast things can turn tragic. I do run carbon in my tank and UV 24hrs a day. I worry more now in the winter with the drop in PH . My tank runs a steady PH of 8.0 in the summer to 7.8 in the winter at its lowest point. Thats usually in the morning before the lights come on. I use a co2 scrubber but it doesn't help much in the winter. In your opinion what causes these STN problems and is there anything else I can do to keep this from happening to me?

I forgot to address your question about the rocks and pH. Use kalkwasser to help your pH fluctuations and to keep the numbers at their best. My system runs from 7.9 to 8.4 with the 24Hr period. I add kalk at night to help the system.
In regards to the dry rocks, again, it needs time to balance out. If your test kits show undetectable PO4 for example, that doesn't necessarily means that your corals aren't using phosphates!!! It simply means that the water column doesn't have much. Bacteria also used phosphates! Every time you add fish or coral foods you are adding phosphates to the system and the corals will use some of it, even IF the rocks are binding some of it at the same time.

Kalkwasser will also precipitate some phosphates and that isn't necessarily a bad thing to your system. As long as you feed the fish and corals you will be fine. The more fish and the more corals the more food. Remember that proper light is the main energy source for your corals! When too much phosphates shows up when you test it's time to control. Don't worry about the rocks... Export detritus and just do proper maintenance.