2 month cycle, high nitrite.

[Firthy13]

Hi all,

I have been cycling for almost 2 months now and have hit a bit of a road block.

I started with about 70lbs of Carib sea life rock and 2 kgs of Maxpect nano-tech bio-spheres in my 150gal tank. I used a 16oz bottle of Dr Tim's one and only to start the cycle. I let that cycle through the tank for 5-6 hours before adding ammonia chloride. I slowly raised ammonia as i didn't want to overdose it and risk stalling the cycle. I got to 1.5ppm on salifert and between 2-4ppm on API so i was happy with that.
That ammonia concentration was present for a month. I assumed it was a bad bottle of Dr Tims, so i added the recommended amount of Seachem Stability and over the next 4 days ammonia went to 0ppm.

For the last 3 weeks my nitrites have been off scale and nitrates around 100ppm. I know the high nitrates is incorrect reading due to the presence of nitrite.

I'm looking for a bit of advice as to which way to go from here. I have almost 50/50 spread of advice to either do a big water change or be patient and let it do its thing.

Dr Tim recommends keeping nitrite under 5ppm as it will stall/slow the cycle but others have said that is not how modern day cycling works now and cycles dont stall.

SO.. can someone please help.




link to my build thread for more info

Build Thread - Firthy's CADE 1500 from downunder

Hi all, I have been in the fish game for 15 years, keeping everything from goldfish to breeding discus. I sold up all my freshwater gear during my last house move, about 5 years ago. I have been procrastinating about a mini dream build ever since, as i know i could never actually fund the real...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[canadianeh]

Did you check my build thread as I told you on your other thread? I recorded the daily test data and your nitrate is the same as mine over 100 ppm. I think it is normal. I don’t think you are going to bring down your nitrate by it self. Just watch for the nitrites. Once it goes down to 0, do more than 50% WC. Some did close to 100%WC. @Brew12 said that people with DSB have some bacteria that can consume nitrates but is very rare. So you will need to export that nitrates via WC and chaeto and etc.

It seems that people that used Caribsea liferock have extended cycling than what advertised by dr Tim’s.

 

[Firthy13]

Nitrates will be high as the nitrate test kit converts nitrates back to nitrites and measures total nitrates+nitrites. So testing for nitrates while nitrite is present is nothing more then a waste of a test kit, apparently.

 

[Firthy13]

Did you check my build thread as I told you on your other thread? I recorded the daily test data and your nitrate is the same as mine over 100 ppm. I think it is normal. I don’t think you are going to bring down your nitrate by it self. Just watch for the nitrites. Once it goes down to 0, do more than 50% WC. Some did close to 100%WC. @Brew12 said that people with DSB have some bacteria that can consume nitrates but is very rare. So you will need to export that nitrates via WC and chaeto and etc.

It seems that people that used Caribsea liferock have extended cycling than what advertised by dr Tim’s.

also, your nitrites didn't go above 2ppm, mine are in excess of 50ppm after doing a 10:1 dilution.

Nice build thread though. sump looks great.

 

[canadianeh]

Nitrates will be high as the nitrate test kit converts nitrates back to nitrites and measures total nitrates+nitrites. So testing for nitrates while nitrite is present is nothing more then a waste of a test kit, apparently.

yep this is the case

 

[canadianeh]

also, your nitrites didn't go above 2ppm, mine are in excess of 50ppm after doing a 10:1 dilution.

Nice build thread though. sump looks great.

Yours at 50 ppm Nitrites?? How much dr Tim’s that you dosed? Did you follow the instructions to the letter?

 

[Firthy13]

Yours at 50 ppm Nitrites?? How much dr Tim’s that you dosed? Did you follow the instructions to the letter?

"I used a 16oz bottle of Dr Tim's one and only to start the cycle. I let that cycle through the tank for 5-6 hours before adding ammonia chloride. I slowly raised ammonia as i didn't want to overdose it and risk stalling the cycle. I got to 1.5ppm on salifert and between 2-4ppm on API so i was happy with that. "

 

[brandon429]

you can 100% know this tank is cycled and ready. here's why

one faction in tank cycling says nitrite matters, and can stall a cycle.


and another faction, me lol, has about 200 threads handy / current ones showing that not to be the case. no matter the biology, conversion rates, presence or no presence, nitrite is neutral in cycling. retire the testing for it, don't resume.

also to consider two strong points for my case, vs the wait-longer faction:
1. all marine reef conventions employ skip or controlled cycling to start on a friday, not an arbitrary date. how do they align 400 reefs on the same date, no varied starts>all fish live, nobody's tank ever crashes since 1979 the last known reef convention pre start crash lol (they do it by nitrite not mattering, only ammonia)

2. all known cycling charts show what your real nitrite is, were it tested differently.

find the axis for #days underwater on a google cycling chart, and locate the opposing nitrite reading reference relative to number of days (on all charts, day 40 is no nitrite) that technique alone beats all nitrite testers in the hobby for accuracy.

the only param that matters in cycling is ammonia, and the only way you're ever going to truly know what ammonia does in a reef tank is to read a seneye connected to your own tank, or the logs of seneye data connected to other's. my case that nitrite does not matter in cycling heavily involves other people's seneye data + a penchant for starting up reefs right in high nitrite phase and producing nice thick corals within a few mos.

The portion of cycling that claims nitrite matters lacks all references supported by seneye data. I have traced out very many extra bottle bac purchases made around stalled nitrite cycling; once we showed them the nitrite didnt matter they simply began reefing and we tracked the tank to its typical day to day function and it was shown the doubled bac dosing was never required. there was no stall, no cycle in reefing history has ever stalled and any data that says it did was not seneye, easy case here.

 

[brandon429]

Seneye would've put your ammonia under control in the thousandths ppm turnover rate within about 4 days predicted from your start date added of all those things.

that specifically means whatever you add right now after a water change (big as you are willing to change) behaves the same as if you added it on day four of this ~60 day cycle

amazing, isnt it. amazing what ammonia does in reef tanks.


Your risk right now is algae water, not cycling toxins, nothing will be 'burnt' in the current condition.

the reason to change a bunch of water, and begin reefing 29 days ago, is because your tank is fully cycled.
It is impossible to arrange normal reefing conditions and rocks/sand be uncycled after 60 days with those boosters in place. you're as cycled as humanly possible.
nice to meet you
B

 

[Firthy13]

Seneye would've put your ammonia under control in the thousandths ppm turnover rate within about 4 days predicted from your start date added of all those things.

that specifically means whatever you add right now after a water change (big as you are willing to change) behaves the same as if you added it on day four of this ~60 day cycle

amazing, isnt it. amazing what ammonia does in reef tanks.


Your risk right now is algae water, not cycling toxins, nothing will be 'burnt' in the current condition.

the reason to change a bunch of water, and begin reefing 29 days ago, is because your tank is fully cycled.
It is impossible to arrange normal reefing conditions and rocks/sand be uncycled after 60 days with those boosters in place. you're as cycled as humanly possible.
nice to meet you
B

Very interesting info. So for example if you have a fully cycled mature reef and somehow have an ammonia spike, from a death of a large fish for example. The tank will, I assume, go through a mini cycle to get rid of that ammonia spike. Are the ammonia and nitrite reading on test kits relevant in this situation?

I only have the capacity to do 15% WC so I'll do a couple of the next few weeks. While some fish are in qt.

So would it be safe to start adding CUC?

 

[brandon429]

its fully safe to add corals and clean up crew, its ready. change as much water as you can for best algae starts, easy here. Im 100% certain without fail it is ready from doing so many online cycle patterns...just your description alone is enough and when you add bioload and they live day to day (acclimatized carefully) that's additional proof.

yes technically a dead fish can spike, but consider these patterns:
-all data for it is non seneye, and 99% api ammonia data and we know how reliable that is

-we are starting to get seneye ammonia data from dead fish tanks, and they still dont leave .00x ppm

we have never seen a seneye report even a .1 in a reef tank during any degree of cycling...or dead fish, yet .25/.1 and full on 8 ppm are commonly reported by API we can see in many cycling threads


seneye data is new and probably only ten thousand people have them in a posting world of a million reef tanks collectively across forums rough guess. but the early data shows ammonia is tightly controlled, without outliers, tank to tank. An avalanche of data and a wee bit of artistic prediction says your tank is ready for sure. stock it, post us pics Ill link your work to a special cycling thread where we do not use test kits. we make calls using solely known time underwater + boosters added to see how far we want to speed up what a common cycling chart shows to be the ready date for ammonia only (the only param we care about in cycling)

the fact it doesnt vary tank to tank is how we keep getting away with no deaths, from testless reef tank cycling for 4 years.

here it is, a big work thread on testless cycling.

The microbiology of reef tank cycling.

You can skip your cycle. Ive been reefing online for twenty years and have never waited one second for a tank to cycle, because I buy rocks that are already cycled and move them home. Here's two: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/octo-high-end-sps-skip-cycle-build.713256/...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Firthy13]

its fully safe to add corals and clean up crew, its ready. change as much water as you can for best algae starts, easy here. Im 100% certain without fail it is ready from doing so many online cycle patterns...just your description alone is enough and when you add bioload and they live day to day (acclimatized carefully) that's additional proof.

yes technically a dead fish can spike, but consider these patterns:
-all data for it is non seneye, and 99% api ammonia data and we know how reliable that is

-we are starting to get seneye ammonia data from dead fish tanks, and they still dont leave .00x ppm

we have never seen a seneye report even a .1 in a reef tank during any degree of cycling...or dead fish, yet .25/.1 and full on 8 ppm are commonly reported by API we can see in many cycling threads


seneye data is new and probably only ten thousand people have them in a posting world of a million reef tanks collectively across forums rough guess. but the early data shows ammonia is tightly controlled, without outliers, tank to tank. An avalanche of data and a wee bit of artistic prediction says your tank is ready for sure. stock it, post us pics Ill link your work to a special cycling thread where we do not use test kits. we make calls using solely known time underwater + boosters added to see how far we want to speed up what a common cycling chart shows to be the ready date for ammonia only (the only param we care about in cycling)

the fact it doesnt vary tank to tank is how we keep getting away with no deaths, from testless reef tank cycling for 4 years.

here it is, a big work thread on testless cycling.

The microbiology of reef tank cycling.

You can skip your cycle. Ive been reefing online for twenty years and have never waited one second for a tank to cycle, because I buy rocks that are already cycled and move them home. Here's two: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/octo-high-end-sps-skip-cycle-build.713256/...

www.reef2reef.com

I'll definitely have a read of that.
Thanks for your advice, I'll continue as normal and will update as I go.

 

[fermentedhiker]

One reason why new tanks struggle with Nitrite is that the salinity is at the upper limit of what the bacteria responsible can operate at. This is why Dr Tim recommends(in one of the threads on here I think) to lower salinity a bit during cycle so they are able to multiply more effectively.

 

[Brew12]

Hi all,

I have been cycling for almost 2 months now and have hit a bit of a road block.

I started with about 70lbs of Carib sea life rock and 2 kgs of Maxpect nano-tech bio-spheres in my 150gal tank. I used a 16oz bottle of Dr Tim's one and only to start the cycle. I let that cycle through the tank for 5-6 hours before adding ammonia chloride. I slowly raised ammonia as i didn't want to overdose it and risk stalling the cycle. I got to 1.5ppm on salifert and between 2-4ppm on API so i was happy with that.
That ammonia concentration was present for a month. I assumed it was a bad bottle of Dr Tims, so i added the recommended amount of Seachem Stability and over the next 4 days ammonia went to 0ppm.

For the last 3 weeks my nitrites have been off scale and nitrates around 100ppm. I know the high nitrates is incorrect reading due to the presence of nitrite.

I'm looking for a bit of advice as to which way to go from here. I have almost 50/50 spread of advice to either do a big water change or be patient and let it do its thing.

Dr Tim recommends keeping nitrite under 5ppm as it will stall/slow the cycle but others have said that is not how modern day cycling works now and cycles dont stall.

SO.. can someone please help.




link to my build thread for more info

Build Thread - Firthy's CADE 1500 from downunder

Hi all, I have been in the fish game for 15 years, keeping everything from goldfish to breeding discus. I sold up all my freshwater gear during my last house move, about 5 years ago. I have been procrastinating about a mini dream build ever since, as i know i could never actually fund the real...

www.reef2reef.com

I know I'm late to the thread, but I'm not buying your nitrite reading. I'm not saying you are doing something wrong, only that those readings are very unlikely. It could be a bad test kit or some other contaminant in your water causing the high reading. The math doesn't work to convert the small amount of ammonia to that much nitrite.
I think it is safe to add a CuC, but I would also run some activated carbon in your system in case there is something in your water altering your test results.

 

[Firthy13]

I know I'm late to the thread, but I'm not buying your nitrite reading. I'm not saying you are doing something wrong, only that those readings are very unlikely. It could be a bad test kit or some other contaminant in your water causing the high reading. The math doesn't work to convert the small amount of ammonia to that much nitrite.
I think it is safe to add a CuC, but I would also run some activated carbon in your system in case there is something in your water altering your test results.

I know, I can't get my head around it either. I have cycled 20+ large freshwater aquariums and I have never seen anything like it. I know it's a slightly different process, but still. Something doesn't add up. The fact that ammonia sat a 4ppm for 30 days with no detectable nitrite or nitrate is weird. I have no doubt it's cycled after brandons explanation but I would still like that warm fuzzy feeling of a test kit showing no ammonia and nitrite with a heap of nitrate.
I have had the results replicated at 3 different LFS, so 4 kits in total.
I started diluting the tank water with ro to try and get an approx valve and with 0.5ml of tank water mixed with 4.5ml of ro, I got 50ppm. I'm not sure how the API kits go with diluted samples as they aren't the best to begin with but I thought it would be interesting to find the point in when it came back to a readable level.

I have done a 30% water change and will probably do another one before my fish come out of QT.