3 weeks in to Biocube 32 cycle....

[pinkfloyd1312]

I'm sure this has been asked and answered 100 times on here at one point or another so bear with me. I used all live rock that was submerged in a container at my LFS and live sand. Water was also from LFS premixed and tested out perfectly. Tank has been sitting for 3 weeks with only floss in the filtration. I have run a normal lighting schedule save for 4 or 5 days where I left it off. I added a bottle of Fritz's 9 when I added the water. Long and the short of it, I do not have an ammonia test kit but I have tested for Nitrates and I still show very little to none present. LFS tested my water this past weekend and they didn't show any Ammonia. I didn't add an ammonia source but with all of the live rock/sand, I didn't think it was necessary. I do not have any diatoms but I do have some green hair algae and had a pod surge a week or so ago. Is this thing going to cycle or with all of the live materials, is it already over? LFS didn't think so but I would like to get some CUC in there to start eating the green hair algae asap. Should I just keep waiting? Can I tell where I stand based upon a nitrate test alone? If so, what measure am I looking for?

Thanks guys

 

[Jeffrey S]

I am no expert but I believe you didn't have nitrate spike because your tank was already cycled due to you getting live sand and rock from fish store.

 

[tankstudy]

Can I tell where I stand based upon a nitrate test alone? If so, what measure am I looking for?

If your cycling your tank, you'll need all three tests. Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate to confirm where you stand.

 

[Darth.Daddy12]

I'm sure this has been asked and answered 100 times on here at one point or another so bear with me. I used all live rock that was submerged in a container at my LFS and live sand. Water was also from LFS premixed and tested out perfectly. Tank has been sitting for 3 weeks with only floss in the filtration. I have run a normal lighting schedule save for 4 or 5 days where I left it off. I added a bottle of Fritz's 9 when I added the water. Long and the short of it, I do not have an ammonia test kit but I have tested for Nitrates and I still show very little to none present. LFS tested my water this past weekend and they didn't show any Ammonia. I didn't add an ammonia source but with all of the live rock/sand, I didn't think it was necessary. I do not have any diatoms but I do have some green hair algae and had a pod surge a week or so ago. Is this thing going to cycle or with all of the live materials, is it already over? LFS didn't think so but I would like to get some CUC in there to start eating the green hair algae asap. Should I just keep waiting? Can I tell where I stand based upon a nitrate test alone? If so, what measure am I looking for?

Thanks guys

If everything was truly live then tank should’ve been gtg in first couple days. The only thing I question is live rock from a container rather then out of a functioning tank system with lighting fish etc. assuming the lfs was running tank water through the container of rock then it should be truly live. I did the same setup couple weeks ago and had no ammonia and started seeing some nitrate the first night of setup so went and got some fish first night lol. That said I bought rock out of a display tank where I could see how clean it was, the tank was and how happy all the life around it was to make sure when getting wet rock that it was as pest free as wet rock can be.

That said I still dumped 30g worth of biospora into a 10g tank soon as I got flow going just to make sure. I was prepared to go days, weeks etc wo stock but soon as I seen 5ppm nitrate and was still 0 ammonia or nitrite I knew tank was gtg as this isn’t my first second or even 20th tank lol.

I’d say you are safe to add a couple snails, a shrimp and one fish. Watch the shrimp closely as he will be the first sign if something isn’t right as inverts are very sensitive to water chemistry. It wouldn’t hurt to throw in a bottle of biospira while there to make sure. It will instant cycle most tanks most times on its own anyways and is added piece of mind considering the cost of the live stock you’re going to be putting in anyways.

 

[Darth.Daddy12]

All that said it would be smart to get something to test for ammonia and make 100% sure however I’ve never seen a cycling tank produce nitrates with readable ammonia levels. Ammonia is consumed fast by Bb and nitrates take time to build. I’d say you have zero ammonia since you have no live stock and have nitrates but you could still have nitrite with nitrate starting to build. Based on how you setup the system I wouldn’t be overly worried through especially since it’s been setup for a few weeks like this. The only concern I’d have is BB die off from not feeding (unless you still fed the tank during this time) so you could in fact see a spike in ammonia when adding first stock but it will be quick and over fast enough if so. (This is why I went ahead and stocked right away in mine to keep bacteria population up cause the tank the rock came from had way more live then I could ever fit into a 10g.

2 weeks in feeding 1 full cube everyday with 5 fish 2 snails some hermits that ragged along on the rock.. few baby feather dusters that did the same and adult size fire shrimp. Tank runs 0-0-5-.015ish since the minute I dropped the first fish in.

 

[brandon429]

Your cycle is confirmed done due the presence of algae. the reason is it takes much longer to deposit algae vs nitrifiers on hydrated media, cycle is done.

if dry rocks are hydrated long enough to have algae, they're fully cycled. neat trick using known order of deposition for marine biology

you're actually reefing as of the date the rocks came home, that algae could grow that fast also signifies live rock already ready.

Here's a thread solely on live rock skip cycles

The microbiology of reef tank cycling.

You can skip your cycle. Ive been reefing online for twenty years and have never waited one second for a tank to cycle, because I buy rocks that are already cycled and move them home. Here's two: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/octo-high-end-sps-skip-cycle-build.713256/...

www.reef2reef.com

the point of the thread is how one can cycle any aquarium never using any tester at all. Free cycling/ free science.

 

[Darth.Daddy12]

Your cycle is confirmed done due the presence of algae. the reason is it takes much longer to deposit algae vs nitrifiers on hydrated media, cycle is done. you're actually reefing as of the date the rocks came home, that algae could grow that fast also signifies live rock already ready.

Here's a thread solely on live rock skip cycles

The microbiology of reef tank cycling.

You can skip your cycle. Ive been reefing online for twenty years and have never waited one second for a tank to cycle, because I buy rocks that are already cycled and move them home. Here's two: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/octo-high-end-sps-skip-cycle-build.713256/...

www.reef2reef.com

the point of the thread is how one can cycle any aquarium never using any tester at all. Free cycling/ free science.

I never knew that about the algae! I’ll have to check that out and learn some more on that.

 

[tankstudy]

All that said it would be smart to get something to test for ammonia and make 100% sure however I’ve never seen a cycling tank produce nitrates with readable ammonia levels.

It does occur. I've tried it out before with solutions & bacteria and ammonia can still be available in presence of nitrate.

There are a few scenarios that does result in this.

 

[pinkfloyd1312]

Here is what I have...

 

[Darth.Daddy12]

It does occur. I've tried it out before with solutions & bacteria and ammonia can still be available in presence of nitrate.

There are a few scenarios that does result in this.

That’s not what I was talking about.. if doing an initial cycling phase of a tank they won’t overlap like that unless you are specifically adding more ammonia to the tank and then testing is only showing you what you added not what was taking care of.. hence why you add stock slowly over time to prevent a spike. If you did not initial dose then wait there is a specific amount of time in which colonization happens wo outside inputs. It’s a specific time lapse of nature. Problem is people in cycling think they have to keep adding the entire cycle in order to cycle. All you need is a kick starter day one the rest nature does on its own. For example

Day one new tank.. drop in measure of ammonia and let tank sit. This starts the cycle there is no more input needed. Measure nitrates and when you register any you will never still read ammonia in that tank. It’s do to how nitrofiers work and populate and the quickness at which each element is broken down.. ammonia can be eaten up 10x faster then nitrate can be produced. You can verify this simply by tanking an established tank (live stock removed for safety) let tank sit sterile long enough to equalize from what’s already in the water. Measure nitrates.. at say 5ppm Then dose 1ppm ammonia to the tank. In 24h the ammonia is gone (or should be if the tank is really cycled.) 24h later you’ll still be reading 5 maybe 6ppm it won’t be till day 2 or three where you’ll actually see a true spike in nitrates yet ammonia has been gone for a while. I’ve actually done this with stagnante freshwater tanks I was too pasty to drain to see if they were still cycled before setting back up.

 

[Darth.Daddy12]

I never knew that about the algae! I’ll have to check that out and learn some more on that.

Just spent a long time reading though a lot of your work and a lot of the other articles and posts.. the parts about how you really can’t even kill off bacteria on purpose is super fascinating lol. Anyways that must have taken you so much time to put all that information and link it all together. Th j you for providing me the link. I’ll be hashing through the rest of it for some time to come.

Really it mostly supports most of what I’ve been saying to hobbiest for years about all the disinformation mostly from companies in the industry trying to promote products that actually harm your system and make you rely on them long term thinking they help but actually are harming. I’d be very interested to get your take in denitrification in freshwater systems which everyone says is impossible and I have 4 tanks proving it’s not cause I simply let my filters fill full of biofilm which creates the denitrification areas while everyone else for 20 years has been told clean your filters monthly..

 

[BeejReef]

It sounds like you started with truly "live" rock and sand. In that case, it should have had nitrifying bacteria in abundance.

IMHO, the issue is you haven't fed the tank or introduced any ammonia. If it is cycled, that's why you're not seeing Nitrate. There is no raw material to process into nitrate. You also have some algae competing with the bacteria.

"Cycled" is a relative term. Can it support a pair of juvenile clowns and a few snails, almost certainly. I feel better, personally, seeing a test result that gives me some assurance, but there are people with far more experience that seem able to simply eyeball it.

 

[pinkfloyd1312]

So sounds like picking up a clean up crew this weekend would be ok? Perhaps another dose of bacteria as well just to be safe? As long as I introduce the livestock slowly, I would think the tank could handle it.

 

[brandon429]

no further bac support is required / its as ready to hold bioloading on day 1 as it is on day 3000

feels weird breaking reef timing rules ha yep but its for a specific reason...the pigmentation of that live rock, the red and purple portions, and the algae, indicate completion for bac.

 

[BeejReef]

If I were a betting man, I'd bet good money on "yes."

No one wants to give reckless advise though. We test a lot in this hobby. Without a test, you never know for sure.
It does seem silly to waste money on an ammonia test kit though, when it's a 95% proposition.

How about feed the empty tank some flake or frozen food tonight and take a water sample to the LFS on Sunday. If it shows no ammonia or nitrite, you can come home with your CUC!

 

[brandon429]

I have to advise against ammonia testing though, due to misreads unfortunately. There is no free ammonia in that system unless a dead organism is providing it, and, the rock isn't porous enough to have a dead animal in it...has to be laying about the tank

we think getting a .25 ammonia would derail and mislead but if you got a large spike indicated, and haven’t used Prime in the water prep, that’s interesting to know.

Ammonia is predictable in all cases without testing, such that owning an ammonia test in reefing is the second most not needed to know param, the first is nitrite. Sounds crazy / aware / but we cycle pages of tanks above without using test kits... dry and live ones all there for inspection and even better, participation. Send any cycle challenge there, testing is not required to cycle any tank if we have 30 days of submersion time at hand. The above growths described then photographed take longer than 30 days to adhere, ergo whatever they’re stuck to is cycled -no tank takes over 30 days to cycle if wet that whole time. Am aware ten thousand cyclers think they do vary + api .25, but they don’t says thread of tanks + fish by day 30, no testing, no losses.

The whole premise is that if you have something wet for thirty days and it’s devoid of bacteria, you’re a microbiologist and designed it to be that way. The whole thread is me discerning if someone has been wet thirty days then saying yes/no to whether a cycle is done admit that’s funny. Not frivolous, funny. Doom and lost tanks occur in a no-test cycling thread if poor science is at hand... out to page sixteen = good science at hand

 

[Darth.Daddy12]

It sounds like you started with truly "live" rock and sand. In that case, it should have had nitrifying bacteria in abundance.

IMHO, the issue is you haven't fed the tank or introduced any ammonia. If it is cycled, that's why you're not seeing Nitrate. There is no raw material to process into nitrate. You also have some algae competing with the bacteria.

"Cycled" is a relative term. Can it support a pair of juvenile clowns and a few snails, almost certainly. I feel better, personally, seeing a test result that gives me some assurance, but there are people with far more experience that seem able to simply eyeball it.

I’m coming confused? How does algae compete with nitrifying bacteria? The simple fact of having algae (which is a life form needing proper water perimeter to grow mind you) is a clear sign the tank isn’t toxic. He has pods all over.. again another sign. Bacteria are the single lowest living thing. They have survived millions of years cause they don’t compete with anything. Considering 90% of the ocean is made up of plankton... how would any bacteria survive with all that algae eating up all the nutrients and all the micro and macro organizsmns feeding on the scraps and left overs. What happens when you over dose carbon to a tank? The bacteria over populate sucking everything out of the water and killing everything in the tank. What you said makes no logical sense and I take issue at spreading this kind of disinformation. This is why we are still stuck in the 50’s in terms of fish keeping and why so many are scared to get into the hobby.

 

[BeejReef]

I’m coming confused? How does algae compete with nitrifying bacteria? The simple fact of having algae (which is a life form needing proper water perimeter to grow mind you) is a clear sign the tank isn’t toxic. He has pods all over.. again another sign. Bacteria are the single lowest living thing. They have survived millions of years cause they don’t compete with anything. Considering 90% of the ocean is made up of plankton... how would any bacteria survive with all that algae eating up all the nutrients and all the micro and macro organizsmns feeding on the scraps and left overs. What happens when you over dose carbon to a tank? The bacteria over populate sucking everything out of the water and killing everything in the tank. What you said makes no logical sense and I take issue at spreading this kind of disinformation. This is why we are still stuck in the 50’s in terms of fish keeping and why so many are scared to get into the hobby.

I'm not saying algae is bad. I'm simply saying that if he's concerned that he's not able to measure ammonia or nitrite that algae compete for the same nutrients. They both consume ammonia.