370ml Ca + Alk per day can't be right

[Sabellafella]

Fully agree. No Coraline and only a few frags which is why I was confused. Only thing could be the dry cycled rock.

Could be. We have heavy circulation in our sump. No film in the tank, but light film in the stock tank sump.

No... Very few SPS frags right now,. Couple of plating pieces about 4" dia.

I am. I have them offset now, but I can separate them geographically in the sump as well. I have a power head blowing directly at the surface of the water where the dosing drips into the sump.

Blunt is good and tough love works too! Too much invested and I have a vision for what we want, and this isn't it. I'll admit I'm not the expert which is why I'm here to learn from the experts.

Answers to a few questions;
BRS Ca = Calcium Chloride mixed 5g at a time to directions of 2-1/2 cups/gallon w/RO
BRS Alk = Soda Ash mixed 5g at a time to directions of 2-1/3 cups/gallon w/RO

Auto water change
Ca = >480 (Red Sea)
Alk = 8.62 (Hanna)

Next steps;
1 - Turn off water changes
2 - Turn off dosing
3 - Monitor Alk/Ca/Mg 3-5 days

Thanks for the input guys! I greatly appreciate the help...

Doug

Nice! Let us know how it turns out

 

[135reef]

Nice! Let us know how it turns out

Thinking back to the startup and how we got here...

1 - Thinking I wanted an Alk of ~8.5, I over-drove Alk dosing early in the startup
2 - The push for Alk over-drove the Ca trying to keep the dosing/system "balanced"
3 - We had a precipitate problem a few months ago evident by heavy buildup on the heaters, pumps and UV quartz tube. Everything was cleaned, but we still have a light film in the stock tank sump
4 - The addition of the power head blowing at the dosing point, reduced the visible precipitate, but we must be pretty saturated

It's a theory, but as many mentioned, the corals are stressed and struggling. It's time for a change to see if we can get everything back to some normal state and reset.

Thanks again,
Doug

 

[((FORDTECH))]

Thinking back to the startup and how we got here...

1 - Thinking I wanted an Alk of ~8.5, I over-drove Alk dosing early in the startup
2 - The push for Alk over-drove the Ca trying to keep the dosing/system "balanced"
3 - We had a precipitate problem a few months ago evident by heavy buildup on the heaters, pumps and UV quartz tube. Everything was cleaned, but we still have a light film in the stock tank sump
4 - The addition of the power head blowing at the dosing point, reduced the visible precipitate, but we must be pretty saturated

It's a theory, but as many mentioned, the corals are stressed and struggling. It's time for a change to see if we can get everything back to some normal state and reset.

Thanks again,
Doug

This is what happen to me. About same system 250 gallons. I have a lot of corals most lps. Was at 180 ml of both. Sand was rock hard. Eventually pulled back and end up with 50 ml alk and 0 cal with daily auto water changes.

 

[135reef]

This is what happen to me. About same system 250 gallons. I have a lot of corals most lps. Was at 180 ml of both. Sand was rock hard. Eventually pulled back and end up with 50 ml alk and 0 cal with daily auto water changes.

Thanks... I'll throttle everything back and see where end up. I knew bare bottom for this tank was going to be tough for the first 12-18mo, but its been a little rougher than expected.

 

[135reef]

Quick status check this morning.

From 10:30pm to 9AM (~10.5hrs)
Ca | 432 to 419
Alk | 7.85 to 7.1
Ph | 8.14 to 7.95

 

[arking_mark]

Quick status check this morning.

From 10:30pm to 9AM (~10.5hrs)
Ca | 432 to 419
Alk | 7.85 to 7.1
Ph | 8.14 to 7.95

Curious what your pH is.

 

[135reef]

Curious what your pH is.

Ph is at 7.93

 

[135reef]

Alk continues to burn off, but the Ca seems to have flattened out a bit.

In 21hrs, our Alk has gone from 7.85 to 6.6 with no dosing and no automated water changes. At what point do I start freaking out about the Alk bottoming out?

For the precipitate experts... This will sound odd, but if a rubbermaid stock tank had a layer of precipitate built up on the surface, could it continue to drive erratic results for the system or would it eventually stabilize?

 

[Futuretotm]

I am an amateur, don’t take my advice.

I have a 140g (total)
I use reef crystals, and awc a few gallons daily.
I dose 60ml alk (sodium hydroxide)
I don’t don’t Ca (every once a blue moon)

I’d say is - stop awc and stop dosing for 24 hours
And note how much ca/alk drop.
Have you checked your sand for lumps?

 

[135reef]

I’d say is - stop awc and stop dosing for 24 hours
And note how much ca/alk drop.
Have you checked your sand for lumps?

Fully agree. The chart above represents turning off Alk, Ca, Mg and AWC for 21hrs.
- Calcium seems to have flattened out for the most part
- Alk continues to crash out, but I'm continuing to monitor. I'd like to get where we land at ~48hrs.
- We are bare bottom, but I have a small ~12x18x3in remote sand bed in the sump. It has a pretty healthy ~1/2" crust. If I break through the surface, the sand underneath isn't solid, but definitely points to precipitation at some point. I checked the bio cubes in the sump and they are still porous.

Playing the numbers game over 21hrs:
(7.85 - 6.6) = ~1.25dKH/21hrs or ~0.06dKH/hr
BRS calculator indicates 178ml to go from 6.6>7.85dKH or 8.5ml/hr

~203ml/24hr still seems very high, but given that the Ca seems to have leveled out and the Alk continues to drop, we are still out of balance.

Here's my thinking...
1) Continue to monitor for the next 24hrs (48hrs in total)
2) Remove remote sand bed. It's only ~3mo old and was intended to be a bit of a buffer for the bare bottom system.
3) Bulk water changes ~40g (1-3x)
4) Re-start with NO dosing to see where they system levels out

Continue normal maintenance
1) Carbon 1x/mo
2) Filter socks (2x/week)
3) Clean skimmer cup (Auto-wiper enabled, but weekly wipe down)
4) Clean algae screen (as needed - RARE at this point)
5) Daily water tests (Trident enabled w/ Hanna + RedSea backup)

Any other thoughts?

 

[arking_mark]

Fully agree. The chart above represents turning off Alk, Ca, Mg and AWC for 21hrs.
- Calcium seems to have flattened out for the most part
- Alk continues to crash out, but I'm continuing to monitor. I'd like to get where we land at ~48hrs.
- We are bare bottom, but I have a small ~12x18x3in remote sand bed in the sump. It has a pretty healthy ~1/2" crust. If I break through the surface, the sand underneath isn't solid, but definitely points to precipitation at some point. I checked the bio cubes in the sump and they are still porous.

Playing the numbers game over 21hrs:
(7.85 - 6.6) = ~1.25dKH/21hrs or ~0.06dKH/hr
BRS calculator indicates 178ml to go from 6.6>7.85dKH or 8.5ml/hr

~203ml/24hr still seems very high, but given that the Ca seems to have leveled out and the Alk continues to drop, we are still out of balance.

Here's my thinking...
1) Continue to monitor for the next 24hrs (48hrs in total)
2) Remove remote sand bed. It's only ~3mo old and was intended to be a bit of a buffer for the bare bottom system.
3) Bulk water changes ~40g (1-3x)
4) Re-start with NO dosing to see where they system levels out

Continue normal maintenance
1) Carbon 1x/mo
2) Filter socks (2x/week)
3) Clean skimmer cup (Auto-wiper enabled, but weekly wipe down)
4) Clean algae screen (as needed - RARE at this point)
5) Daily water tests (Trident enabled w/ Hanna + RedSea backup)

Any other thoughts?

Sand bed crust probably indicates where a lot of the calcium carbonate precipitation is occurring.

 

[135reef]

Sand bed crust probably indicates where a lot of the calcium carbonate precipitation is occurring.

Agree - Sand tub has been removed from the sump

 

[135reef]

Status Update

Calcium flat lined in the 412-420 range
Alk this morning (~54hrs) was at 5.78

Just did a 30+ gallon water change and will let things settle down today. There is a light precipitate crust in the sump as others expected but nothing heavy.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Status Update

Calcium flat lined in the 412-420 range
Alk this morning (~54hrs) was at 5.78

Just did a 30+ gallon water change and will let things settle down today. There is a light precipitate crust in the sump as others expected but nothing heavy.

Alk is not likely declining without a proportional drop in calcium, but you cannot readily detect the calcium drop (7 ppm) associated with a 1 dKH drop in alk.

FWIW, some preciptiation happens in most tanks.

If you are concerned about abiotic precipitation, then ways to stop it are:

1. Stop dosing alk for a bit and let it decline.
2. Reduce pH by switching to a low pH alk mix like sodium bicarbonate, or a calcium organic such as Tropic Marin All for Reef.
3. Ensure magnesium is normal to high.
4. Keep organics and phosphate on the high side.

After a few days of not dosing alk, restart slowly, adding additives to a very high flow area so it mixes in fast.

 

[135reef]

Alk is not likely declining without a proportional drop in calcium, but you cannot readily detect the calcium drop (7 ppm) associated with a 1 dKH drop in alk.

FWIW, some preciptiation happens in most tanks.

If you are concerned about abiotic precipitation, then ways to stop it are:

1. Stop dosing alk for a bit and let it decline.
2. Reduce pH by switching to a low pH alk mix like sodium bicarbonate, or a calcium organic such as Tropic Marin All for Reef.
3. Ensure magnesium is normal to high.
4. Keep organics and phosphate on the high side.

After a few days of not dosing alk, restart slowly, adding additives to a very high flow area so it mixes in fast.

Randy,

Thank you for weighing in!
1. I stopped all dosing 2-days ago
2. pH was more stable when I was dosing Soda Ash, but I have Sodium Bicarbonate on-hand
3. Mg is steady at 1450
4. Organics seem very low. Red Sea has Nitrate and Phosphate at effectively zero. But Hanna has Phosphate at 0.9 2x.

Running filter socks, skimmer and algae reactor 24x7.

30g+ water change first thing this morning brought Alk from 5.78 to 6.12 and fell off to 5.96 in ~12hrs. I'll let it idle for another 24hrs and do another water change.

I have a power head pointing directly at the surface of the water under the dosing tubes.

 

[135reef]

Status update:

Friday I did another 40g water change. After the first WC (bump on left), Alk returned to about 6.1 and bottomed out ~5.7 before another WC. WC2 brought the Alk back to ~6.3 and has fallen off to about 5.96 this morning. pH sitting solid 7.9-8.02

Option #1: Another large water change wait 24-48hrs to see where thing settle out and then start dosing Alk to see if we can get it back into the 7+ range.

Option #2: Start dosing Alk SLOWLY. BRS Liquid Soda Ash calculator indicates 54.2ml/24hr (6.36>5.98).

Thoughts?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I don't see a specific benefit to a water change.

 

[Dj A-Ron]

I've been having these same issues with my 65 gallon system. I'm having to dose 100ml of each BRS Soda Ash and Calcium to maintain 7.0-8.0 Alk and about 380 calcium. My Alk fluctuates about 1 dkh per day. Calcium stays steady. I'm also doing a 1 gallon auto water change per day and also testing with the Trident. I do have sand in my tank and it does get a little lumpy but I don't see any other signs of precipitation. So it seems that I'm running almost the same regiment as you just on a smaller tank. I was going to post my issues but came across your post with almost the same exact issues.

I do have a decent amount of LPS a half dozen softies and about a dozen SPS in my tank along with a good amount of coraline growing.

 

[135reef]

Status update;

Started ramping Alk back up slowly.
- Calcium remained pretty solid at ~430 (421-441) w/no additions
- Alk has stabilized at ~6.11 (6.03-622) with 67ml BRS liquid soda ash/day
- Mg has dropped from 1469 to 1430 w/no additions
- pH floats from 7.89 - 8.07 (Ave 7.99)

On a related note, I found that my salinity was high. I calibrated with two different reference solutions and re-checked with the hydrometer. Slowly bringing the salinity down from 38ppt.

No algae outbreaks, no obvious precipitate. If things remain stable at 6.11 and 67ml/day, I'll ramp the Alk up to try and achieve closer to 8 and return to 67ml/day.

 

[135reef]

I don't see a specific benefit to a water change.

Thanks Randy