3D Printable Live Rock

aviationreef · Apr 15, 2016

Honestly the naturally density of printed plastics might work better for the project, the natural printing in pretty open for water flow, unles you have a much better printer then i have ever used.

Try making a 2x2 block of it and measure the weight before and after submerging it in water. will give you an idea of how much water it will hold if it is holding any. also remember the point of Live rock is surface area.

Glasswalker · Apr 16, 2016

Parts I print are definitely water tight. (Thats true of my last two printers as well)

Meaning part design needs to expose surface area.

Also even on a print that isn't water tight, while it may be permeable, flow through will be severely limited.

I do have a couple tricks up my sleeve for improving efficiency and surface area though

I'm working on V2 now...

Kungpaoshizi · Apr 18, 2016

Be careful!
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/uh-oh-3d-printed-objects-found-to-be-toxic-to-fish-1

Glasswalker · Apr 18, 2016

Interesting, I'd be very interested to see the entire paper.

Realistically I don't think there is a lot of concern here. The article is quite vague as to the specifics, and to me it looks like this study was done to highlight "worse case scenario" (maybe even with an intended conclusion). It shouldn't be ignored of course, (their conclusion about SLA being bad aligns with what was already shared around many forums, and I've mentioned in the other 3D Printing thread already... The resins for SLA are not reef safe).

Also they made a point to call out that in the study the embryos were put in direct contact with the plastic for prolonged time. (which again is a "worse case" scenario)

But saying "FDM 3D Printing Plastic" is VERY vague... There are literally hundreds of different filament types used in FDM 3D Printing. Many of which are IDENTICAL to standard plastics that are used every day in food containers, water bottles, potable water piping, and in hundreds of existing products for reef tanks without any ill effect... There is no difference between ABS in filament form used in 3D Printing, and ABS for injection moulding parts.

That said I'm sure there are filaments which are not reef safe, some (like PLA) already identified that aren't really "unsafe" but will break-down in a warm saltwater environment with bacterial action at play. Others might have chemicals that leech. But I think that's why we need to gather information and confirm what is safe...

Reporting like this article, saying "Uh Oh! 3D Printing is toxic to fish" can spread a lot of FUD... The process of 3D Printing (specifically FDM) does nothing that alters the plastic in any way from plastics already used every day. The plastic itself may or may not be safe, but many are (and are proven as such over years of successful reefing). All that reporting like that does is scare people away from valuable innovative new technology.

Another example of this phenomena is the whole "Oh my god! 3D Printers can make guns!" topic, which has spread like wildfire around the media, and 3D Printing communities... Joe-Public is scared of the tech because "now every kid can have a handgun! all they need to do is download the plans online... Without considering that:

3D Printable guns require a lot of time to print, and a very high quality printer to actually work. The plans exist yes, but require the know-how to leverage them to print.
For almost as long as there has been an internet (actually before that). There have been plans easily downloadable to build a far superior firearm than what could be built with a 3D Printer, using about $5-$10 in parts from the nearest hardware store, and no other special tools/knowledge/skills.

Yet if you ask some people it's suddenly a big deal that people with certain skills, and $1000+ in special tools can download and create a gun, and the government should take note, and revise gun laws? Sounds like a convenient excuse to advance someone's political agenda if you ask me

lol...

Anyway, would be very interested to see more concrete data on this. We definitely don't want to harm the fish/coral, and shouldn't completely ignore things like this, but we do need real concrete information beyond what this article offers (and I looked, unfortunately the full paper wasn't accessible via the link, would need to dig a little deeper to find it).

I agree "be careful" but no need to be afraid of 3D Printing in general.

Remember, you can find a "legit" study out there to "prove" almost anything

andrewey · Apr 19, 2016

I'd be interested to see whether this colonizes bacteria- and how the surface area compares to live rock.

rayn · Apr 19, 2016

Very cool idea. Would almost be able tonnage any structure then, and design. If it colonizes then it would be very cool indeed!

ebushrow · Jan 1, 2017

I think if nothing else, it would be great for raising pods in the tank without being easily eaten by the fish! Great idea....I will be trying this very soon to see what happens.

spinycheek · Jan 10, 2017

Awesome design!

I've never really understood the fear surrounding 3D printing in reefs. Most of the plastics have been used in other equipment (canisters, egg crate, filter floss, glues, valves) and no one bats an eye.

Gbrum · Jan 11, 2017

I really like the idea. How large of pieces could you print. Thinking about custom rocks for overflow boxes. etc.

Kyleen · Jun 9, 2017

Update? Pics?

MarsRover · Jun 9, 2017

Kungpaoshizi said:
Be careful!
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/uh-oh-3d-printed-objects-found-to-be-toxic-to-fish-1

I agree with the OP. Little concern here. ABS and PVC are proven safe for our tanks. Printing in ABS is common (though a lot use PLA).

I printed my custom overflow box (see build thread in signature).

I think it is a cool idea, for sure, but you will never, EVER, exceed the colonizable surface area that true rock has. The reason being that there are micro pores and I assure you your printer is not able to make these feature sizes. That said, you are getting significantly more surface area out of a "flat" plane printed than, say, a sheet or pipe of PVC by virtue of the FDM process leaving the micro structure of the surface being composed of small rounded layer.

Has its uses in this hobby for sure but the resolution of your printer is what...at best .001"? Maybe? Hole features in porous rock, not to mention dislocation density in multigrained ceramic composite structures, are MICH MUCH smaller than that. Think how small these bacteria are...you can look up their size, then major ones we know of that serve a purpose in our nitrogen cycles anyway.

Additionally, there are anaerobic bacteria we want to grow that some hypothesize exist deep in our porous rock where theres an absence of free fluid exchange or access to copious amounts of dissolved O2. You won't have these in your plastic because, again, you don't have the micro/nano/pico channels produced to allow micro/nano/pico organisms/bacteria to migrate and live anaerobically.

My 2cents

MarsRover · Jun 9, 2017

There are concrete printers out there. Generally these have been large scale printers (concrete houses etc) but with some Engineering, you can make a small scale extruded for fine aggregate containing concrete.

But at that point, just follow the DIY rock making by hand on a macro scale and be done with it?

Mebeknob · Jun 10, 2017

I think the best use would be to make very unique structures that have "frag plugs". And I mean plugs that are printed and blend into the rock structure. Ones that aren't the typical round ones. This way placing corals would be way easy. You could have really cool overhangs, tunnels, coves for anemones, tunnels for eels or jaw fish, etc.
if you could mimic the inside of a human bone, that may give you a good latticework.

I worked at Carbon3D for a time. I think they're just called Carbon now. Anyways they would put that one structure on the inside on many of their pieces.

MarsRover · Jun 10, 2017

Mebeknob said:
I think the best use would be to make very unique structures that have "frag plugs". And I mean plugs that are printed and blend into the rock structure. Ones that aren't the typical round ones. This way placing corals would be way easy. You could have really cool overhangs, tunnels, coves for anemones, tunnels for eels or jaw fish, etc.
if you could mimic the inside of a human bone, that may give you a good latticework.

I worked at Carbon3D for a time. I think they're just called Carbon now. Anyways they would put that one structure on the inside on many of their pieces.

^^^ this ^^^

Ranjib · Jun 11, 2017

This is a great thread. I think we should keep on experimenting with both form/structure as well as new materials that are coming up every month.

Daniel@R2R · Jun 12, 2017

Definitely a great discussion!

Treefer32 · Jun 12, 2018

I'm into 3d printing and just came across this as I'm also starting a brand new tank myself (not new to reefing though, been in the hobby for 10 + years). I was using my 3d printer for Dungeons and Dragons terrain pieces. But, was looking for uses of 3d printing for a reef. (I'm not a good designer though.) A few questions, is PLA reef safe? Or just ABS and PET?

Next as I consider aquascaping, I was wondering, could scans of existing rocks be taken, where there's curves, etc, could a rock be printed to fill the negative space, forming a flat base with curves where needed to support a base structure? Kinda like a custom printed foundation for base rock?

Also, I was thinking too, could we print "disposable" media. Similar to something like this:
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/marinepure-ceramic-biomedia-1-1-2-spheres.html

Just would be neat to be able to print out the filter media and print as many as needed and/or what size needed? My printer can only do 5.5" by 5.5" by 5.5" But, a biosphere that's 5.5" in circumference would be awesome to add to my filtration media. I could print out ten and just through them away monthly or every 2-3 months if they become Nitrate collectors.

OriginalUserName · Jun 13, 2018

Since it is hollow wouldn't there be a concern about trapping old food and junk with no way to remove it? Great idea though.

Regarding the risk of floating you could plan on a few flat/shelf rocks placed on the bottom and then zip tied to the plastic structure. Or even something simpler like leaving a large hole in the back to toss in a piece of rock or PVC tube filled with sand and sealed.

On that note, can you come up with some cool frag plug designs? I.e. more natural looking shapes than a perfect cylinder with uniform thickness. I keep thinking that the plug portion would be more useful if they had a corkscrew shape to help secure them into the rock.

sbash · Jun 14, 2018

Treefer32 said:
I'm into 3d printing and just came across this as I'm also starting a brand new tank myself (not new to reefing though, been in the hobby for 10 + years). I was using my 3d printer for Dungeons and Dragons terrain pieces. But, was looking for uses of 3d printing for a reef. (I'm not a good designer though.) A few questions, is PLA reef safe? Or just ABS and PET?

Next as I consider aquascaping, I was wondering, could scans of existing rocks be taken, where there's curves, etc, could a rock be printed to fill the negative space, forming a flat base with curves where needed to support a base structure? Kinda like a custom printed foundation for base rock?

Also, I was thinking too, could we print "disposable" media. Similar to something like this:
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/marinepure-ceramic-biomedia-1-1-2-spheres.html

Just would be neat to be able to print out the filter media and print as many as needed and/or what size needed? My printer can only do 5.5" by 5.5" by 5.5" But, a biosphere that's 5.5" in circumference would be awesome to add to my filtration media. I could print out ten and just through them away monthly or every 2-3 months if they become Nitrate collectors.

PLA is reef safe, however it could (and likely will) break down in the tank. I use nGen (co-polyester) and it works quite well, it's a little harder to work with than PLA , but will not break down and is 100% reef safe.

I like your bio balls idea, and PLA would likely be a good use. It is my understanding they work like biopellets and will slowly degrade as a carbon source.

If only we had our own forum for 3D printing we could easily track and share ideas like this!

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/get-any-part-you-need-right-here.321961/

sbash · Jun 15, 2018

Treefer32 said:
Just would be neat to be able to print out the filter media and print as many as needed and/or what size needed? My printer can only do 5.5" by 5.5" by 5.5" But, a biosphere that's 5.5" in circumference would be awesome to add to my filtration media. I could print out ten and just through them away monthly or every 2-3 months if they become Nitrate collectors.

Well, here's a bio ball:

Printed in PLA, cost is just over 30 cents CAD. Took 3 hours to print.

Thinking about it, if you were really serious about swapping out new media every month, it would probably make more sense to print a single 'bio-block' that fits perfectly in place. Also, realistically, it may even be easier (simpler) to use PLA scrap as 'bio-media'... I know I waste probably close to 25% of all my plastics due to prototyping and printer errors; there's no reason this pla plastic can't be thrown into a mesh bag and let to do its thing...