40 Breeder Sump & Refugium Design

[DirtDiggler2823]

I’m not sure if the size of the space makes a difference but the water depth is very important.

I've been reading that. I can tune that after i purchase the hardware.

 

[Reef-junky]

I would get rid of the first part and put the skimmer there. Get a filter sock holder for your filter sock and put it next to the skimmer. They are easy to find and cheap. The height of the baffle will be determined by the skimmer. Then I would split the area that’s left in 1/2. You could then put the return in the middle or on the end. If you put the return in the middle I would add the bubble trap after the skimmer. chaeto will trap the bubbles. A bigger return if I remember I think helps with water fluctuations. So you would end up with 3 sections. Also get the type of filter sock holder where the pipe isn’t in the sock it will make it easier to change them out.

 

[DirtDiggler2823]

I would get rid of the first part and put the skimmer there. Get a filter sock holder for your filter sock and put it next to the skimmer. They are easy to find and cheap. The height of the baffle will be determined by the skimmer. Then I would split the area that’s left in 1/2. You could then put the return in the middle or on the end. If you put the return in the middle I would add the bubble trap after the skimmer. chaeto will trap the bubbles. A bigger return if I remember I think helps with water fluctuations. So you would end up with 3 sections. Also get the type of filter sock holder where the pipe isn’t in the sock it will make it easier to change them out.

I was planning on using the filter media cups, and not socks.

 

[OMGitsManBearPig]

A bigger return if I remember I think helps with water fluctuations. So you would end up with ...

Fluctuations in water level - sure - a "bigger" return would result in more gradual changes in water level given an equal amount of evaporation.

Fluctuations in salinity of water is another story - which is a problem if that is where you put your ATO sensors - which you typically would.

We have to more clearly define "bigger return."

My logic tells me that the bigger the surface area of the section in which you put your ATO sensors, the more salinity rises for a given drop in water level.
Using simple numbers to make the math easy, imagine a small return vs a larger return chamber that has 10 times the surface area. It would take 10 times more evaporation to move the water down the same depth in the large return vs the small return. So think about the distance from min. to max. ATO sensors - the smaller less surface area return section would have 10 times less less fluctuation in the salinity before activating the make up water pump all other variables being equal.

Obviously, spacing the min/max sensors for an ATO closer together is a solution, if your ATO setup allows for this type of customization.
It's really a balancing act. Less return chamber surface area means more water level delta and more frequent ATO operation. Keep in mind, if you have less depth and less surface area in the smaller return, thats the equation for less volume - meaning you have less time to react before you have pump damage - potentially. A larger return section depth means you have more time to fix a problem with flow before pump failure.

I would say that my main requirement in a return section is depth of water. More depth means more opportunity to identify and work a problem. Smaller surface area, more depth. For these reasons, I like that you chose to divide the return section in half. By halving the return, you are doubling the water level delta (depth change) for a given amount of evaporation. Your ATO will run more often for less time each cycle. With a robust ATO, this will mean a more stable salinity.

 

[DirtDiggler2823]

Fluctuations in water level - sure - a "bigger" return would result in more gradual changes in water level given an equal amount of evaporation.

Fluctuations in salinity of water is another story - which is a problem if that is where you put your ATO sensors - which you typically would.

We have to more clearly define "bigger return."

My logic tells me that the bigger the surface area of the section in which you put your ATO sensors, the more salinity rises for a given drop in water level.
Using simple numbers to make the math easy, imagine a small return vs a larger return chamber that has 10 times the surface area. It would take 10 times more evaporation to move the water down the same depth in the large return vs the small return. So think about the distance from min. to max. ATO sensors - the smaller less surface area return section would have 10 times less less fluctuation in the salinity before activating the make up water pump all other variables being equal.

Obviously, spacing the min/max sensors for an ATO closer together is a solution, if your ATO setup allows for this type of customization.
It's really a balancing act. Less return chamber surface area means more water level delta and more frequent ATO operation. Keep in mind, if you have less depth and less surface area in the smaller return, thats the equation for less volume - meaning you have less time to react before you have pump damage - potentially. A larger return section depth means you have more time to fix a problem with flow before pump failure.

I would say that my main requirement in a return section is depth of water. More depth means more opportunity to identify and work a problem. Smaller surface area, more depth. For these reasons, I like that you chose to divide the return section in half. By halving the return, you are doubling the water level delta (depth change) for a given amount of evaporation. Your ATO will run more often for less time each cycle. With a robust ATO, this will mean a more stable salinity.

Great explanation! When I was "building" this model last night, I got to the final section, and had I maintained the same orientation of the baffles I would have ended up with two narrow chambers that would have both been ineffective. I thought I could turn the orientation 90 degrees and have 2 suitable chambers that could hold a return pump, and the refugium I'm planning on using. As I gather hardware, and begin cutting pieces for the baffles, I'll be able to make subtle changes to ensure ATO sensors and the such have ample space to operate correctly.

 

[Reef-junky]

Fluctuations in water level - sure - a "bigger" return would result in more gradual changes in water level given an equal amount of evaporation.

Fluctuations in salinity of water is another story - which is a problem if that is where you put your ATO sensors - which you typically would.

We have to more clearly define "bigger return."

My logic tells me that the bigger the surface area of the section in which you put your ATO sensors, the more salinity rises for a given drop in water level.
Using simple numbers to make the math easy, imagine a small return vs a larger return chamber that has 10 times the surface area. It would take 10 times more evaporation to move the water down the same depth in the large return vs the small return. So think about the distance from min. to max. ATO sensors - the smaller less surface area return section would have 10 times less less fluctuation in the salinity before activating the make up water pump all other variables being equal.

Obviously, spacing the min/max sensors for an ATO closer together is a solution, if your ATO setup allows for this type of customization.
It's really a balancing act. Less return chamber surface area means more water level delta and more frequent ATO operation. Keep in mind, if you have less depth and less surface area in the smaller return, thats the equation for less volume - meaning you have less time to react before you have pump damage - potentially. A larger return section depth means you have more time to fix a problem with flow before pump failure.

I would say that my main requirement in a return section is depth of water. More depth means more opportunity to identify and work a problem. Smaller surface area, more depth. For these reasons, I like that you chose to divide the return section in half. By halving the return, you are doubling the water level delta (depth change) for a given amount of evaporation. Your ATO will run more often for less time each cycle. With a robust ATO, this will mean a more stable salinity.

Good point it would depend on the type of ATO.

 

[Reef-junky]

I was planning on using the filter media cups, and not socks.

Your going to have to stay on top of cleaning that stuff. For that reason a lot of people won’t use stuff like that or filter socks.

 

[DirtDiggler2823]

Your going to have to stay on top of cleaning that stuff. For that reason a lot of people won’t use stuff like that or filter socks.

I plan on doing just that, or, I can always remove them and just let the skimmer have at it. We shall see.

 

[Reef-junky]

I plan on doing just that, or, I can always remove them and just let the skimmer have at it. We shall see.

To be honest I probably wouldn’t bother with filter media because you can get the same thing from other sources with less maintenance but as long as you stay on top of cleaning it you will be fine. Another thing to consider is if your going to run a manifold you will want to over size your return pump. I would also make sure the pump has room so it doesn’t touch the glass because that will make noise.

 

[DirtDiggler2823]

To be honest I probably wouldn’t bother with filter media because you can get the same thing from other sources with less maintenance but as long as you stay on top of cleaning it you will be fine. Another thing to consider is if your going to run a manifold you will want to over size your return pump. I would also make sure the pump has room so it doesn’t touch the glass because that will make noise.

I'm looking at a 1200 gph pump for this build

 

[George Lopez]

I'll ask the same thing I always ask,. 1200gph before or after head loss? Like i ruin a 2650gph pump but get 1000gph after loss.

 

[DirtDiggler2823]

I'll ask the same thing I always ask,. 1200gph before or after head loss? Like i ruin a 2650gph pump but get 1000gph after loss.

I had not accounted for head loss. Looks like I'll be needing a bigger pump. Thanks for that tip.

 

[DirtDiggler2823]

I'll ask the same thing I always ask,. 1200gph before or after head loss? Like i ruin a 2650gph pump but get 1000gph after loss.

Is there a particular pump you would recommend? Also, what would you suggest the flow rate be for a 90 gallon? I was shooting for 10x the volume, but what do I actually need? Planning on doing SPS' at some point.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Is there a particular pump you would recommend? Also, what would you suggest the flow rate be for a 90 gallon? I was shooting for 10x the volume, but what do I actually need? Planning on doing SPS' at some point.

What is your budget for a pump? Theres a lot of great return pumps at nearly every level of the market. If want to spend $150 hard to justify one at $400 when theres a suitable one at your initial wanted price with perhaps less bells and whistles but still great long lasting reliability(mag drive pump as an example).

 

[Reef-junky]

Is there a particular pump you would recommend? Also, what would you suggest the flow rate be for a 90 gallon? I was shooting for 10x the volume, but what do I actually need? Planning on doing SPS' at some point.

The flow from the return is not for your coral. For your return pump you want about 5x the DT. You need to account for height, size of pipe, 90’s and 45’s and if you use PVC or hose. As far as an ac pump I like Eheim or Syncra.

 

[DirtDiggler2823]

The flow from the return is not for your coral. For your return pump you want about 5x the DT. You need to account for height, size of pipe, 90’s and 45’s and if you use PVC or hose.

Going with PVC, maybe 5 feet or less on the return. Trying to use 45° joints, instead of 90° joints, but I will have to use at least one 90° joint as it goes into the DT. Is there a formula I could apply to help size the return pump correctly?

 

[Reef-junky]

There is a head loss calculator. You may have to google it. You will want to look at the head loss curve for the pump you plan to buy as well.

 

[George Lopez]

I went cheap and have a jebao dcp10000, but that's all that I could afford at the time for my 90 bit I also don't run it at max power, I have 2 wave makers for the heavy flow and if the system needs a good flush I drop by socks in and crank it up. I was looking at the varioS-6 pump and hoping black Friday it will be on sale again (should have packed it up last year) but honestly no complaints about the jebao yet I just wish I would have gone with the 12000 because I didn't realize how much my skimmer takes (but that's my fault, got a separate pump for it after the fact).

 

[Fin]

Make sure you leave enough room for the particular skimmer that you want to use. Check the footprint of the skimmer before you build the sump.

This is how I built my 40B sump. The end section was used as a frag tank, but could be used as a refugium as well. It was fed off of a manifold that had a dedicated pump.

 

[DirtDiggler2823]

Make sure you leave enough room for the particular skimmer that you want to use. Check the footprint of the skimmer before you build the sump.

This is how I built my 40B sump. The end section was used as a frag tank, but could be used as a refugium as well. It was fed off of a manifold that had a dedicated pump.

That is pretty sharp!