.41 phosphate. Is it time for GFO ?

As minus9 stated, these bacteria (Rhodopseudomonas palustris) are diazotrophs, meaning they can "fix" nitrogen (i.e., make NH4 out of nitrogen gas, essentially the opposite of denitrification) when nitrogen becomes limiting to growth. The purpose of this is of course to support their own growth. It's worthwhile to note though that this function is shut down in the presence of any ammonia (so they cannot harm the system by increasing NH4 to toxic levels). In fact, most of our systems are excessively rich in fixed nitrogen (mostly NO3), which these microbes utilize both in growth (assimilation) and respiration (denitrification). As such, they maintain a low but steady nitrogen import. In other words, they uptake excess NH4/NO3 but nevertheless cannot cause them to bottom out (google Rhodopseudomonas+ammonia switch-off).

As they are grazed by corals and other picoplanktivores, this fixed nitrogen is transferred up the food chain. Reef-building corals, which characteristically inhabit nitrogen-poor environments, owe their extremely high productivity to bacteria such as these (see Coral Magazine vol. 18 no. 4, "Meet the diazotrophs: The under-appreciated role of nitrogen-fixing bacteria in the secret life of corals").


Like any organism, it takes requires phosphorus to survive. In fact, it can take up much more phosphate than it requires for growth.

https://www.hydrospace.store/post/r...ore/post/removing-phosphate-with-pns-bacteria

PNS YelloSno is a different type of product, a food, which is made using these bacteria. It is essentially a marine snow simulation. Also as minus9 stated, it is rich in B vitamins, particularly B12; not only does B12 promote the growth of these and other beneficial bacteria, but it's also beneficial to both corals and zooxanthellae (both require it for growth, yet neither is capable of synthesizing it themselves). It is complimentary to PNS ProBio (i.e., the live product).

I just found it strange that the product description on the manufacturer's website does not mention phosphate at all.
 
@Kenneth Wingerter you would recommend PNS ProBio for tanks with high phosphate then? I'm struggling to get mine down, even with a refugium running. I am feeding very heavily to keep nitrates high enough to get the dinoflagellates to die off, as my nitrates had tanked to 0 from the coral growth and algae growth in the refugium. I am already dosing PNS ProBio once weekly as a food source for the corals, should I increase dosing it? I can dose daily if it will help safely bring my phosphate down.

FWIW, my phosphates are at 1.0ppm, not 0.1, checked twice using the salifert kit. Nitrates stay between 5-10ppm. I harvest over 1/2 lb of Caulerpa from the refugium once weekly and rinse all sponges and filter socks on the system daily. Also have a skimmer running. This is a heavily stocked 75 gallon mixed reef, fed 4-5x daily to keep all the planktivores and corals happy.

Oddly enough, none of my corals seem to be effected, other than growth has slowed (though not stopped). The acros have actually developed better color?
 
Seems like Pro Bio is primarily used for nitogen control, any effect on phosphate would be incidental (most nitrification does consume a small amout of phosphate but not much).
 
@Kenneth Wingerter you would recommend PNS ProBio for tanks with high phosphate then? I'm struggling to get mine down, even with a refugium running. I am feeding very heavily to keep nitrates high enough to get the dinoflagellates to die off, as my nitrates had tanked to 0 from the coral growth and algae growth in the refugium. I am already dosing PNS ProBio once weekly as a food source for the corals, should I increase dosing it? I can dose daily if it will help safely bring my phosphate down.

FWIW, my phosphates are at 1.0ppm, not 0.1, checked twice using the salifert kit. Nitrates stay between 5-10ppm. I harvest over 1/2 lb of Caulerpa from the refugium once weekly and rinse all sponges and filter socks on the system daily. Also have a skimmer running. This is a heavily stocked 75 gallon mixed reef, fed 4-5x daily to keep all the planktivores and corals happy.

Oddly enough, none of my corals seem to be effected, other than growth has slowed (though not stopped). The acros have actually developed better color?
Some tanks adapt well to high phosphate levels. If your corals are thriving why change it up? I use PNS twice weekly in half dose. I don't think it affects phosphate very much but sure keeps the detritus from accumulating.
 
I can say from personal experience that it does indeed lower PO4. I never changed my feeding habit while using it and it brought my PO4 down from .26 to .1 in a matter of weeks. To give you an idea of my feeding habits, I was feeding LRS 3-4 times a day, auto feeder with NLS pellets twice a day, flakes once or twice daily and TDO at least twice a day. My nitrates would never exceed 1ppm and usually tested about 0.5 - 0.75ish.
 
Some tanks adapt well to high phosphate levels. If your corals are thriving why change it up? I use PNS twice weekly in half dose. I don't think it affects phosphate very much but sure keeps the detritus from accumulating.
I'm just worried about it being the calm before the storm. It went from 0.2 to 1.0 in the span of just a few weeks, as I've been feeding very heavily and skipping water changes to get nitrates up to get rid of dinoflagellates.

I'm planning on trying to use phosguard from Seachem in a media bag in the sump starting next week as well. I just don't want to come home one day and see all my acros RTNd and my clams dead because of high phosphate.
 
I can say from personal experience that it does indeed lower PO4. I never changed my feeding habit while using it and it brought my PO4 down from .26 to .1 in a matter of weeks. To give you an idea of my feeding habits, I was feeding LRS 3-4 times a day, auto feeder with NLS pellets twice a day, flakes once or twice daily and TDO at least twice a day. My nitrates would never exceed 1ppm and usually tested about 0.5 - 0.75ish.
This is exactly what I was hoping to hear! Personal experience with PNS ProBio! I'm going to start dosing the tank daily, checking the phosphate and nitrate daily, and see how it goes.

I currently feed a blend of frozen foods (mainly Rod's food, mysis, pacific plankton, and fish eggs) 4x daily soaked in selcon or vita chem, and feed TDO and NLS twice daily. I also feed reef roids 1x weekly (cutting down from 3-4 because of the phosphate) and feed live phyto (Isochrysis galbana and Tetraselmis suecica) daily. We also feed fresh hatched live baby brine and live rotifers 3x weekly, and have been feeding PNS ProBio 1x weekly.
 
I can say from personal experience that it does indeed lower PO4. I never changed my feeding habit while using it and it brought my PO4 down from .26 to .1 in a matter of weeks. To give you an idea of my feeding habits, I was feeding LRS 3-4 times a day, auto feeder with NLS pellets twice a day, flakes once or twice daily and TDO at least twice a day. My nitrates would never exceed 1ppm and usually tested about 0.5 - 0.75ish.
Wow that's a ton of feeding. How much PNS do you dose?
 
I'm just worried about it being the calm before the storm. It went from 0.2 to 1.0 in the span of just a few weeks, as I've been feeding very heavily and skipping water changes to get nitrates up to get rid of dinoflagellates.

I'm planning on trying to use phosguard from Seachem in a media bag in the sump starting next week as well. I just don't want to come home one day and see all my acros RTNd and my clams dead because of high phosphate.
I use phosguard in my sump. I like it because it walks the phosphate down slowly day by day so no sudden big changes in parameters.
 
I just found it strange that the product description on the manufacturer's website does not mention phosphate at all.
Erin, we primarily consider our flagship product PNS ProBio to be a live coral food/probiotic (with its tendency to remove phosphate being icing on the cake). PNS Substrate Sauce (the cycling product) purposefully has an excess of phosphate to actually add ~0.05 ppm. But you're correct, there is no explicit reference to phosphate removal in the ProBio product description and perhaps there should be. We shall fix that! Thank you, I love and appreciate this kind of feedback. :)
 
If same ratio no problem if eyes don't see no problems all is good nitrates should be at 40ppm if you have .4 phosphate keep the ratio if you change anything if not bad things will happen like algae all kinds of it. Take your time doing it if you want it to go down look at corals everyday they might like it that way ,you need stable try to keep everything stable 24/7
 
@Kenneth Wingerter you would recommend PNS ProBio for tanks with high phosphate then? I'm struggling to get mine down, even with a refugium running. I am feeding very heavily to keep nitrates high enough to get the dinoflagellates to die off, as my nitrates had tanked to 0 from the coral growth and algae growth in the refugium. I am already dosing PNS ProBio once weekly as a food source for the corals, should I increase dosing it? I can dose daily if it will help safely bring my phosphate down.

FWIW, my phosphates are at 1.0ppm, not 0.1, checked twice using the salifert kit. Nitrates stay between 5-10ppm. I harvest over 1/2 lb of Caulerpa from the refugium once weekly and rinse all sponges and filter socks on the system daily. Also have a skimmer running. This is a heavily stocked 75 gallon mixed reef, fed 4-5x daily to keep all the planktivores and corals happy.
Hi Fishfreak, adding more product might help to reduce phosphate. I say "might" because the bacteria would have to colonize your system and grow well before you'll observe any substantial reduction of PO4. I don't want to present you with unnecessarily grim odds, because we hear of great results for this particular application all the time. But it does require some things, namely a large surface area of suitable anaerobic microhabitat (Siporax, old AquaChar, deep sand/gravel bed, etc.). If they receive some light, even better, as this will roughly double their productivity. Carbon dosing can help, especially if you don't have a particularly high concentration of DOM (they prefer vinegar to alcohol or sugars).

The last factor is not as much within your immediate control; your existing microbiome is unique, and therefore it's difficult to predict how much competitive pressure a seed culture will encounter from other bacterial species. Here's where more product really can help; when seeding, it's probably best to add the dose directly to the biomedium (as to really concentrate it). Large, concentrated doses help to inundate a habitable area in terms of sheer numbers of cells. If more cells successfully recruit to some given area, their collective release of antibiotics and other antimicrobial substances is more effective in creating a so-called zone of inhibition against competing species. Here's where dosing for seeding is very different than dosing for feeding (at least the way I like to recommend them): For seeding, dosing should be in pulses as to take advantage of strength in number, whereas for feeding, dosing should be in smaller but more frequent additions.

But hey, export is only half of the equation. Ultimately, there is some limit to how low your PO4 can go, and import will be exactly as much of a factor there as export (as I'm sure you already know). So be prepared to set expectations accordingly. Sounds like you feed you tank quite generously, so the limit may be pretty strict. Even if these bacteria exhibit a limited capacity to remove PO4 in a particular system (due to competition, or UV sterilization, or whatever), they are nevertheless an incredibly nutritious food/probiotic that reduces instead of increases phosphate levels. :) These bacteria are commonly used in industrial and agricultural wastewater applications and demonstrate an ability to remove far more PO4 than you're seeing; however, they do need the living space and must be able to defend it well enough to proliferate.

Do you keep a refugium for that caulerpa? Sound like a great place for some dedicated biomedia, because of the light and the extra DOM.

Hope some of this was helpful!
 
Hi Fishfreak, adding more product might help to reduce phosphate. I say "might" because the bacteria would have to colonize your system and grow well before you'll observe any substantial reduction of PO4. I don't want to present you with unnecessarily grim odds, because we hear of great results for this particular application all the time. But it does require some things, namely a large surface area of suitable anaerobic microhabitat (Siporax, old AquaChar, deep sand/gravel bed, etc.). If they receive some light, even better, as this will roughly double their productivity. Carbon dosing can help, especially if you don't have a particularly high concentration of DOM (they prefer vinegar to alcohol or sugars).

The last factor is not as much within your immediate control; your existing microbiome is unique, and therefore it's difficult to predict how much competitive pressure a seed culture will encounter from other bacterial species. Here's where more product really can help; when seeding, it's probably best to add the dose directly to the biomedium (as to really concentrate it). Large, concentrated doses help to inundate a habitable area in terms of sheer numbers of cells. If more cells successfully recruit to some given area, their collective release of antibiotics and other antimicrobial substances is more effective in creating a so-called zone of inhibition against competing species. Here's where dosing for seeding is very different than dosing for feeding (at least the way I like to recommend them): For seeding, dosing should be in pulses as to take advantage of strength in number, whereas for feeding, dosing should be in smaller but more frequent additions.

But hey, export is only half of the equation. Ultimately, there is some limit to how low your PO4 can go, and import will be exactly as much of a factor there as export (as I'm sure you already know). So be prepared to set expectations accordingly. Sounds like you feed you tank quite generously, so the limit may be pretty strict. Even if these bacteria exhibit a limited capacity to remove PO4 in a particular system (due to competition, or UV sterilization, or whatever), they are nevertheless an incredibly nutritious food/probiotic that reduces instead of increases phosphate levels. :) These bacteria are commonly used in industrial and agricultural wastewater applications and demonstrate an ability to remove far more PO4 than you're seeing; however, they do need the living space and must be able to defend it well enough to proliferate.

Do you keep a refugium for that caulerpa? Sound like a great place for some dedicated biomedia, because of the light and the extra DOM.

Hope some of this was helpful!
Thank you!

I have a roughly 8 gallon refugium with Caulerpa prolifera, Caulerpa racemosa, Caulerpa taxifolia, and Halymenia spp. along with about 15 lbs of pukani rock. The display tank is a 75 gallon with a 1.5" aragonite sandbed, and 100 lbs of pukani rock. I do run UV on the system, but normally shut the sterilizer off for 24 hrs after feeding the PNS. Because we started with dry rock (pukani rock purchased dried out from another reefer), I tried to seed the tank with a some biodiversity by adding a whole bottle of Microbacter 7, a whole bottle of Biospira, a whole bottle of Fritz Turbo Start, a whole bottle of Stability by Seachem, and a half bottle of PNS ProBio, along with mulitple types of phyto and copepods.

Is it safe to dose this in larger quantities with fish present? I have about 1/3 of a bottle left I could potentially add all at once to the refugium.
 
Thank you!

I have a roughly 8 gallon refugium with Caulerpa prolifera, Caulerpa racemosa, Caulerpa taxifolia, and Halymenia spp. along with about 15 lbs of pukani rock. The display tank is a 75 gallon with a 1.5" aragonite sandbed, and 100 lbs of pukani rock. I do run UV on the system, but normally shut the sterilizer off for 24 hrs after feeding the PNS. Because we started with dry rock (pukani rock purchased dried out from another reefer), I tried to seed the tank with a some biodiversity by adding a whole bottle of Microbacter 7, a whole bottle of Biospira, a whole bottle of Fritz Turbo Start, a whole bottle of Stability by Seachem, and a half bottle of PNS ProBio, along with mulitple types of phyto and copepods.

Is it safe to dose this in larger quantities with fish present? I have about 1/3 of a bottle left I could potentially add all at once to the refugium.
Nice, that's a rather complimentary combination of microbial products right there. Nice collection of caulerpa too, I miss that stuff (I never found good reason to be so scared of it). Sorry if I missed something above, but do you skim? Have your phosphates been manageable?
 
Nice, that's a rather complimentary combination of microbial products right there. Nice collection of caulerpa too, I miss that stuff (I never found good reason to be so scared of it). Sorry if I missed something above, but do you skim? Have your phosphates been manageable?
I do skim. I skim wet with the Aquamaxx ConeS Q-1 In-Sump Protein Skimmer. Up until this point, phosphates have always stayed below 0.3-0.4, which I figured was high, but never gotten this bad. We actually were dosing nitrate for a while, which brought them down to 0.05-0.06, but then nitrate started rising, and has stayed stable between 5-10ppm without dosing. Phosphate however shot through the roof.
 
So after a few days of no water changes, no dry or pellet food, just my home made, chopped up food and nori for the foxface, and dosing Neo Nitro my nitrate is 5 but my phosphate is now .51
 
What if I just does a little nitrate ? Nitrates seems to be the earlier one to control

That's a fine plan, IMO, if the goal is to raise nitrate, but it may not help phosphate appreciably.

I'd look to a phosphate binder, or additional export by growing more macroalgae.
 

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