46 Gallon (4 Months) - Water Params good - fish dying - constructive criticism..!?

triplefishryan · Apr 7, 2016

First I'd like to just say I have done a TON of research and the one thing I've found is that everyone has a different opinion on just about everything. This site has been the most reliable, hence the post..! Thanks in advance, I'm excited to hear how I screwed up, what to do next, and (eventually) have a beautiful, successful tank! I am resiliant, I will never give up, and am addicted to knowledge, so fire away..,no offense taken.

THE START:
1-10-16...First mixed salt and tap water (which later i found read 185 on TDS meter). Put 10lbs of base rock, 15 lbs of live rock, 3" crushed coral argonite substrate. First 3/4 weeks only flow/filter was a crappy walmart wisper. (stupid, i know). After that I got the marineland canister filter rated for 75 gallons and kept the wisper hang on for the hell of it. LFS said no need for skimmer (yet?)

Anyways, I let it cycle, took readings, and added 2 snails and 2 hermit crabs after 3/4 weeks. In the meantime, I added about 10 more lbs of live rock, waited a till week 6 and added 2 clowns. They did AWESOME up until last night. (More on that soon)

Fast forward till now, I have about 40lbs of LR and the same 10lbs of base i added from the start. I have coraline algae starting to grow on them, which I hear is a good sign of overall tank health!?!?. So, mistake #1, as a newbie and finding conflicting research online, i trust my LFS..makes sense right? After 2 weeks of the tank adjusting to the pair of ocerlleriius clowns, the LFS sells me a yellow tang and LTA..neither of which i wanted, per say, or did enough research on. Needless to say yellow tang died after about 2 weeks. I think the clowns were bullying him, he was stressed, not eating/not enough nutritian, and died..Anemone died as well, but NOT in the tank, after about 2 weeks as well, im thinking fkrbthe same reason, as well as tank being way too young.?

After the losses, I told myself i'll let the tank recover at least 4 weeks prior to adding any fish. I love my inlaws, but sometimes they can be a little much...My father in law "surprises" me with an indian yellow-tail angel fish, the same LFS sells him. (they knew me/who he was/what was in my tank, etc). Okay, hes doing fine for a week, and after telling him thanks, but dont do it again, he couldnt resist...A week later, (3-21-2016) in comes a 3/4" Flagfin Angel...Needless to say, i intended on bringing it back, i didnt wnat to leave it in a bag over night and dont have a QT set up ...mistake #2...He kills the indian yellow tail over night, eats next day or so, stops eating at bottom of tank breathing heavy/fast, just like the tang, and dies 3 days after the angel, 4 days after inteoduction. From the start the flagfin was twitching and swimming erratically, and i thought it was a rivalry with the other angel or skmething, but coninued to do so after the other one died...Frustration at its finest..i knew it was gonna happen, tried buying soecial food bc i know they're picky, etc..whateve...all the while clowns doing great!

4-5-2016 - Both Clowns dead..one at the bottom center under LR, other wedged itself in a crevice if some figi LR which was discusting and difficult to take out. Both of their stomachs seems ripped open but thinking it was the hermit? Only thing that changed was i had nitrate pads in whisper filter (LFS idea) and took them out which spread a bunch of crap all around the tank...also topped it off with RODI water which was colder and may have shocked them? I put 2 gallons in and they were room temp, about 60F..? it cooled off the tank from 80-79...

I dont know what to do, i feel like my tank is screwed and idk if it is a parasite, too much too soon, or what...hermits and snails A-OKay! Please help, you can bash me, trash me, i dont care i want to learn from mistakes and i will mever give up. I dont care if i have to start over, i WILL make this perfect!!

Tank Params & setup:
46 gallon
marineland magniflow 220 canister filter running
HOB tetra whisper ex70 filter from walmart (no bio-wheel)
LED light (not sure of wattage off hand)
79F
1.024-1.025
Amonia - 0.0 - (API test kit read a lil this morning after clowns died? i couldnt find the otehr clown last night until i did 15% water change this morning so he was dead in there 24+ hrs)
nitrite-0
nitrate- usually always atound 5-10...now 20-30?
Calcium- 420
mag- ??
copper - 0
kH- 12 ..? (dont remeber last time)
pH - to start it was always lower, around 7.9- now its always 8.1 without fail
Fed high quality pellets, dried seaweed to angels, frozen brine srhimp, and frozen veggie cube to angels

I do a 10 gallon water change with RODI water i buy from walmart-TDS reads 003 everytime...(swithed over after tang/anem died bc thought that was the problem, around 3/4 weeks ago)

I appreciate all of your help in advance!! I will give you prompt respinses with any questions or info you need!

CodyRVA · Apr 7, 2016

So, my first thought is... are they suffocating??? If you have fish, then you're ready for a skimmer. I say this for two reasons, one to work on the bio load from the fish, but two because skimmers oxygenate the water. Unless you have an air stone, is it possible the only O2 you've been adding to the system has been coming from your water changes?

As far as the anemone, I agree too soon. I tried with a system around 4 months old with no dosing, and the parameters changed way too much.

Definitely make sure you keep your water level consistent. If you don't have an ATO: auto top off, make sure you add fresh RODI daily or the salinity swings could be detrimental to all of your livestock.

You have coralline algae growing, thats definitely a positive. That tells me your parameters aren't crazy off, and you didn't mention your clean up crew dying so that's also a plus, which also leads me to believe you don't have an ammonia issue.

What I would do:

Get rid of that HOB whatever it is. It's pointless and as they say keep it simple stupid. The more unnecessary equipment you have involved the more opportunity for issues; it'll also be a prime place for detritus to collect. Make sure you're running your canister properly which is 99% different from the way the instructions tell you. If you want more info let me know. I ran a 46 bow front with a canister with SPS with great success, so don't get down on yourself. Also, invest in a skimmer. You don't have to get crazy, a simple Reef Octopus HOB Classic will work just fine and won't break the bank. And in the future, do not let anymore livestock enter your tank without QT or research. Bite the bullet and do what you must, because this is not a hobby worthy of risk taking. When you get your skimmer, feed the tank lightly even if you have no fish, this keeps it cycled. Let it sit for a week or two. Go back and get yourself some clowns and see what happens.

triplefishryan · Apr 7, 2016

Thanks for your quick response!

When the first tang died, I thought the same - not enough dissolved O2...I then put an air stone in the HOB which helps break the surface on the way back into the tank and the canister filter I placed so it's half in/half out of the water which also agitates the surface pretty good. Not sure if that's enough though...I'll get rid of the HOB asap, and you're right - it's pointless. I would, however, like to know your recommendation on how to run the canister correctly, maintanence, etc..! (I'm sure I'm not doing it correctly..!) I am planning on setting up a QT this weekend - I have a 20 gallon tank laying around anyways. I've also done some research on HOB skimmers and as you said the Reef Octopus has the best reviews..

I am, however, still confused as to why the clowns died so suddenly - and both of them...Would lack of oxygen kill so quickly? They were eating fine and showed no signs of stress or discoloration, etc. I was also thinking that it could have been a parsite or bacteria infection from the other fish, as I didn't QT them properly..? What can I do/look for to confirm it wasn't?

Duke4Life · Apr 7, 2016

The fish death could also be disease. No quarintine mentioned with fish that are known to carry some nasty stuff. @Humblefish @melypr1985

Duke4Life · Apr 7, 2016

triplefishryan said:
Thanks for your quick response!

When the first tang died, I thought the same - not enough dissolved O2...I then put an air stone in the HOB which helps break the surface on the way back into the tank and the canister filter I placed so it's half in/half out of the water which also agitates the surface pretty good. Not sure if that's enough though...I'll get rid of the HOB asap, and you're right - it's pointless. I would, however, like to know your recommendation on how to run the canister correctly, maintanence, etc..! (I'm sure I'm not doing it correctly..!) I am planning on setting up a QT this weekend - I have a 20 gallon tank laying around anyways. I've also done some research on HOB skimmers and as you said the Reef Octopus has the best reviews..

I am, however, still confused as to why the clowns died so suddenly - and both of them...Would lack of oxygen kill so quickly? They were eating fine and showed no signs of stress or discoloration, etc. I was also thinking that it could have been a parsite or bacteria infection from the other fish, as I didn't QT them properly..? What can I do/look for to confirm it wasn't?

Some diseases are hard 2 see and could be internal.

triplefishryan · Apr 7, 2016

If it were a disease, do I have to be worried that it could infect new fish? How long should I wait to add?

Duke4Life · Apr 7, 2016

No tang in a 46, much 2 small.

Duke4Life · Apr 7, 2016

triplefishryan said:
If it were a disease, do I have to be worried that it could infect new fish? How long should I wait to add?

Yes and 75-76 days fallow, due 2 it being unknown 2 be safe. Ttm and quarantine the 1st new inhabitant during this time. I hate suggesting

CodyRVA · Apr 7, 2016

+1 @Duke4Life , very possibly disease. I guess I was giving your LFS more credit. They could have realistically sold you one sick fish and it would have infected the rest. If thats the case then you'll need to treat the tank and go fishless for several weeks if not months. Most medications will kill your inverts so you'll have to remove them. Agreed a tang is generally too small for a 46G, i had one in my 46, but thats because I was about to upgrade to an 80. You should have been able to see coloration issues with your fish. The fact that they were eating is odd, usually a sick fish will stop eating and hide or be less active and slowly decline.

Here's a great video on canisters:

The sintered glass media he refers to can be found here:
https://greatwaveeng.com/shop/media/biohome-standard-media/

Duke4Life · Apr 7, 2016

Btw welcome 2 The site.

Duke4Life · Apr 7, 2016

Also your cuc and any coral will be fine if a disease is present. So no worries there.

Daddio · Apr 8, 2016

I would start with a skimmer and lose the other filters. From experience, I would buy one rated higher than your tank capacity. Don't skimp here, as in the long run, it will end up saving you money. it is in my opinion the most important piece of equipment you can own. It will save you money in dead livestock and in replacement costs when you realize you didn't get one big enough (which I did - twice). The reef octopus mentioned earlier would be awesome.

Sounds like you have the commitment and are going to have a lot of fun with this hobby. It can be simple and not overly expensive if you keep it simple and learn your tank.

There are so many smart people here and I learned so much just by browsing different threads. You are in the right place!

Not to sound stupid, but did you check your tank for any foreign objects, dripping rust or anything metal? I had an experience where my tank went downhill quickly and found out that one of my sons accidentally threw a penny in the tank. I was pulling my hair out because my water was checking out almost perfect. Probably not a solution, but an easy one to rule out.

triplefishryan · Apr 8, 2016

Thanks again for all your responses and help! It's very encouraging..!

Okay so one of the reasons I have been avoiding the sump project is because I've read online unless you drill the tank people have problems, due to the HOB sump equipment overflowing or malfunctioning due to power outages, etc. I've got a buddy of mine that just recently told me he has a 46 gallon bow front he would give me, so I could potentially drill that one and set it up properly. Question remaining is the skimmer....

I want to buy a skimmer ASAP, however, if I get a reef octopus skimmer, two questions:
1 - I was looking at the option between the HOB 1000 and 2000 models. If I were to get the 2000 model, that is advertised from 80 gallons (heavy load) - 200 gallons (light load), woudl that be too much? Are there any downsides to skimming too much, or having too strong of a skimmer?
2 - If I do end up using a sump down the road would that HOB skimmer still be a good choice..? I think the answer would be that you can buy a much better skimmer in sump, however, I guess I just wouldn't want to throw it out if I decide to either upgrade to a bigger tank or throw a sump in down the road...

I clearly need to do more research, but figured I would start here!

triplefishryan · Apr 8, 2016

Also - after the clowns died I checked and cleaned everything, and did a 30% water change. I don't have any kids running around or anyone around that would put any foreign objects in the tank, but that doesn't sound fun..I'm still petrified that it is a disease in my tank and anything I put it in will die again..!

I was thinking now just getting a few cleaner shrimp and maybe some more snails...They'll do okay disease ridden or not..??

Certainly going to take Duke4Life's advice with the canister, get a skimmer, and some power heads...

Also would like to know the best test kits you can buy..?? Definitely need to double check everything. One time my tests looked like they were reading .25 ammonia and 20ppm nitrates (0 nitrites) and I brought the water to two stores and both showed all 0's...

CodyRVA · Apr 8, 2016

You can add inverts like snails and shrimp, the fish diseases won't affect them, but if you want to treat your water you'll have to remove the inverts. Make sure the tank you invest in can be drilled, tempered glass can not. Most bow front tanks i've come across are tempered and thus won't work for drilling, but test it first. You can use a smart phone and polarized sun glasses to check. I would avoid API test kits, they're very inconsistent. I've had great success with Salifert; Red Sea and Hanna are also great. I think the HOB 1000 is plenty; but you'll have to decide if you're going to implement a sump. If you are and you plan on doing so soon, i would hold off on the skimmer until you buy an in sump skimmer for your new setup.

Daddio · Apr 8, 2016

If you get a nice skimmer like the Reef Octopus, there is no reason you couldn't use it in a sump. I don't think the 2000 would be overkill at all!

I have gone through diseases (idk several times) and it is really disheartening. During these times, water quality is crucial. Any additional stress on the fish adds to their inability to survive disease. I think you are okay to add some snails and shrimp personally but the shrimp can be a sensitive to poor water quality and a dead snail really can stink up your tank. If you are going to add critters, I would add some hermit crabs so if anything dies, you have a crew to take care of the remains.

I like the Red Sea tests. I only test for Alk, Calcium and Mg now with an occasional phosphate and nitrate check. Red Sea makes a kit with those three and I find it to be at least easy for me to read and get consistent results that are pretty consistent with the LFS numbers. Good luck and all I can say is take it slow and if you have the ability, buy the best equipment you can afford. It is not cheaper to buy a bargain brand and realize that what you have is simply "cheap".

CodyRVA · Apr 8, 2016

The only issue you might have with a HOB anything is the water level in your sump being too shallow. I had this issue with my Reef Octopus bio pellet reactor. I had to invest in an in sump model because the pump on the HOB model couldn't reach the sumps water level. I had intentions on modifying the PVC, however the PVC they use isn't normal thicknesses so I ended up replacing the reactor entirely.