72h cycle and avoiding the ugly stage

[sixty_reefer]

16:00 local time

Nh4 1.5ppm (0.5ppm in 2 hours)
No2 0.05

No2 pic

nh4 side by side, now and the 14:00 test

 

[MnFish1]

It would have been nice (maybe next time) - for you to have put bare rock in to see if the 'uglies appear' on the new rock?

 

[sixty_reefer]

It would have been nice (maybe next time) - for you to have put bare rock in to see if the 'uglies appear' on the new rock?

Wend I left this morning the goal was to get some nice live rock, unfortunately all that was available was this two piece, there was plenty more but they were just cured rock and affecting the end result as no bacteria or algae would be on those surfaces.
At the moment everything going as planned although I can’t understand how the nitrites are showing up so early (maybe at @Lasse could weigh in as he’s fairly well knowledgeable on the field)

 

[sixty_reefer]

18:00 local time (4 hours from starting the test)

NH4 1ppm ish
No2 0.1ppm

Nh4 pic

left 18:00, middle 16:00, right 14:00

No2 pics

18:00

16:00

observations:

there is a clear fast decline in ammonia and a rapid increase in nitrites. Heterotrophic nitrification?
There is also many gas bubbles around the rock surface, possibly oxygen as the same occur in my tank wend I add this source of carbohydrates during lights on.

 

[MnFish1]

Wend I left this morning the goal was to get some nice live rock, unfortunately all that was available was this two piece, there was plenty more but they were just cured rock and affecting the end result as no bacteria or algae would be on those surfaces.
At the moment everything going as planned although I can’t understand how the nitrites are showing up so early (maybe at @Lasse could weigh in as he’s fairly well knowledgeable on the field)

Since it's so early - I would stick some dry rock in if you can. It's not perfect - but it will help to see if the uglies are prevented by the carbohydrates IMHO.

 

[Lasse]

Heterotrophic nitrification?

No No No - a classic start of the nitrification cycle - the processing of NH4 into NO2 is faster than the NO2 to NO3 process, hence a NO2 build up. Classic, Classic, Classic

Sincerely Lasse

 

[sixty_reefer]

Since it's so early - I would stick some dry rock in if you can. It's not perfect - but it will help to see if the uglies are prevented by the carbohydrates IMHO.

Am pretty sure I got a small piece knocking around the garden somewhere, it’s uncured although it should be ok for the exercise.

 

[sixty_reefer]

No No No - a classic start of the nitrification cycle - the processing of NH4 into NO2 is faster than the NO2 to NO3 process, hence a NO2 build up. Classic, Classic, Classic

Sincerely Lasse

Thank you I was scratching my head seeing it just 2 hours in the cycle. Good thing we have you around
How do you believe this happens, we done this testing before and it took a few days until we observe nitrites only change is the addition of carbohydrates to the testing and starting with no3 and po4 at detectable residual.

 

[Lasse]

As soon as NH4 start to decrease - NO2 is build up. If not all NO2 is processed directly (into NO3) - NO2 will build up. But the bacteria need NO2 before it can process it to NO3. What´s happens in this test more indicate that the system already have a working nitrification. With rather high load (as 2 ppm NH4) I have often seen a small upgoing in NO2 in already working systems. I do not either think that your testing gears are enough sensible or sensitive in order to give a good picture of what´s happens. I think they can give you a hint on the direction but I would not trust the absolute figures

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

so you are going to factor chemical results from test kits, weighed against what photosynthetic organisms grow or do not grow under lighting and feed and + extended wait period underwater, and from that you will tell us what clade of bacteria is exclusively handling your ammonia test loading?

 

[sixty_reefer]

so you are going to factor chemical results from test kits, weighed against what photosynthetic organisms grow or do not grow under lighting and feed and + extended wait period underwater, and from that you will tell us what clade of bacteria is exclusively handling your ammonia test loading?

No, just evaluating if stimulating heterotrophic bacteria can help avoiding the “ugly stage” and compete directly with nuisances algaes and other organisms. Basically im just feeding the diversity that we do often look to get in our systems.
I have not attempted this before, so may just end up in ashes once the tank is full of algae either way I will try and keep the log going

 

[sixty_reefer]

20:00 local time (8 hours)

it seems that it’s stalled

Nh4 1ppm ish (same)
No2 0,1ppm ish (small increase)

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Clearly I'm missing something...i just started a tank with all live ocean rock a few months ago and had zero "uglies"...is the experiment to test if the same can be done with dry rock only??

 

[brandon429]

OK I see you are feeding/supporting the nutrients associated with that group to boost them

what steps rule out contributions from the other group or identify % contributed

 

[sixty_reefer]

22:00 local time

Nh4 0.8 (down 1.2ppm in 8 hours)
No2 0.25 (up 0.25 in 8 hours).
No3 5ppm (down 5ppm in 8 hours). Dosed further 10ppm
Po4 0.15 (down 0.05ppm in 8 hours).

 

[sixty_reefer]

OK I see you are feeding/supporting the nutrients associated with that group to boost them

what steps rule out contributions from the other group or identify % contributed

Not sure if I understood the question.

This is the results 8 hours into the cycle

Nh4 0.8 (down 1.2ppm in 8 hours)
No2 0.25 (up 0.25 in 8 hours).
No3 5ppm (down 5ppm in 8 hours).
Po4 0.15 (down 0.05ppm in 8 hours).

I don’t think that who’s doing what really matter. If we look at the bigger picture we have ammonia being oxidised into nitrite and photosynthetic organisms, we have no3 being oxidise into n2 gás or into heterotrophic bacteria biomass, regardless who’s having what is starting to look a full cycle to me in just under 8 hours, adding a piece of dead rock seems crucial at this point to see if nuisance will take over or not.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Clearly I'm missing something...i just started a tank with all live ocean rock a few months ago and had zero "uglies"...is the experiment to test if the same can be done with dry rock only??

That was the original idea although, of recent a more important question come to mind regarding carbon dosing and ammonia that I’d like to confirm the study. As I promised @MNFish I will be adding dead rock as soon as possible and use the liverock to seed it. Observing both at the same time.

 

[sixty_reefer]

00:00 local time (10 hours in)

NH4 0.5ppm
No2 0.2ppm

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

That was the original idea although, of recent a more important question come to mind regarding carbon dosing and ammonia that I’d like to confirm the study. As I promised @MNFish I will be adding dead rock as soon as possible and use the liverock to seed it. Observing both at the same time.

Oh ok...i thought you guys were just trying to find a way to avoid the uglies in general and the way to do that is simply using live ocean rock. I can attest to that...

 

[sixty_reefer]

Oh ok...i thought you guys were just trying to find a way to avoid the uglies in general and the way to do that is simply using live ocean rock. I can attest to that...

That’s cool, can you pin point why live rock worked for you but not worked for hundreds of other reefers?
aquabiomics and Brs done many testing on both and they still got the ugly stage on most of their experiment tanks even though that bacterial diversity was present and in this forum it’s not uncommon to see folks starting with live rock and still get the ugly stage.
is the answer just as simple as you “can attest to that”?