8 week successful fishless cycle...broken?

[JCATL]

I have a 90 gal display (120g total) that's been cycling for about 8 weeks. I did a Dr. Tims fishless cycle with ammonia chloride pretty much verbatim from their guide and after three weeks or so things were looking good. Ammonia and nitrite were good and I could dose ammonia and have it back down to zero in a day or so. I did not add fish as we were still trying to decide on what to get and from where. So in the mean time I dosed phyto, added pods and continued to feed the tank a small bit a couple of times per week while feeding my other fish. For several weeks everything looked great. The water continued to check out fine (testing about once per week), I had lots of free swimming pods and I thought I was good.

About a week ago I had what I assume was a bacteria bloom. The water looked smokey. I added some activated carbon (per a few threads I found here) in the sump and after a day or so it cleared. This week we were ready to move some fish over from another tank. I decided to dose ammonia one more time, just to confirm all was well. I dosed to about 2 ppm and now, three days later, it's still basically unchanged. Now I'm starting to think I screwed up somewhere, maybe with the carbon?

Any ideas what I did wrong and what I can do to get things back in order? Should I continue to just wait?

 

[Dan_P]

I have a 90 gal display (120g total) that's been cycling for about 8 weeks. I did a Dr. Tims fishless cycle with ammonia chloride pretty much verbatim from their guide and after three weeks or so things were looking good. Ammonia and nitrite were good and I could dose ammonia and have it back down to zero in a day or so. I did not add fish as we were still trying to decide on what to get and from where. So in the mean time I dosed phyto, added pods and continued to feed the tank a small bit a couple of times per week while feeding my other fish. For several weeks everything looked great. The water continued to check out fine (testing about once per week), I had lots of free swimming pods and I thought I was good.

About a week ago I had what I assume was a bacteria bloom. The water looked smokey. I added some activated carbon (per a few threads I found here) in the sump and after a day or so it cleared. This week we were ready to move some fish over from another tank. I decided to dose ammonia one more time, just to confirm all was well. I dosed to about 2 ppm and now, three days later, it's still basically unchanged. Now I'm starting to think I screwed up somewhere, maybe with the carbon?

Any ideas what I did wrong and what I can do to get things back in order? Should I continue to just wait?

If you had established nitrifying bacteria in the aquarium, they should still be there, attached to surfaces of the system. I have not heard that activated carbon harms nitrifying bacteria.

So, how did you determine that you successfully establish a population of nitrifying bacteria In the first place? I ask because Dr. Tim’s product seems to generate many posts about having trouble with it.

 

[JCATL]

If you had established nitrifying bacteria in the aquarium, they should still be there, attached to surfaces of the system. I have not heard that activated carbon harms nitrifying bacteria.

So, how did you determine that you successfully establish a population of nitrifying bacteria In the first place? I ask because Dr. Tim’s product seems to generate many posts about having trouble with it.

Thanks for the reply.

I followed their guide, including testing schedule. Everything aligned pretty well with the guide time wise.

 

[Dan_P]

Thanks for the reply.

I followed their guide, including testing schedule. Everything aligned pretty well with the guide time wise.

Can you recap what you observed? What tests, timing, etc.? I ask because your experience seems out of the ordinary.

 

[JCATL]

Can you recap what you observed? What tests, timing, etc.? I ask because your experience seems out of the ordinary.

Day one I added Dr. Tims one and only and ammonia chloride to roughly 2 ppm. Continued testing ammonia and nitrite daily, redosing ammonia chloride as needed and testing the day after to see if ammonia and nitrite were dropping. I reached a point (roughly three weeks out) that I could dose ammonia and have no ammonia or nitrite the following day or so, which per their guide (and others I've seen here) meant I was cycled.

Since then I stopped dosing ammonia and started dosing phyto, adding pods and occasionally feeding the tank (a tiny bit of mysis) every couple of days while testing once per week or so. I also did about a 20% water change around week 5-6.

 

[Dan_P]

Day one I added Dr. Tims one and only and ammonia chloride to roughly 2 ppm. Continued testing ammonia and nitrite daily, redosing ammonia chloride as needed and testing the day after to see if ammonia and nitrite were dropping. I reached a point (roughly three weeks out) that I could dose ammonia and have no ammonia or nitrite the following day or so, which per their guide (and others I've seen here) meant I was cycled.

Since then I stopped dosing ammonia and started dosing phyto, adding pods and occasionally feeding the tank (a tiny bit of mysis) every couple of days while testing once per week or so. I also did about a 20% water change around week 5-6.

It is somewhat unusual to have no nitrites so quickly, but we can put that thought aside for now. I cannot come up with a plausible explanation here. Maybe @taricha sees something here that I am missing.

 

[taricha]

I cannot come up with a plausible explanation here. Maybe @taricha sees something here

The short answer is that I will bet things are fine - just slower than expected. Since you can't see much change in ammonia test - If you do a nitrite test, I think you will find some NO2 is being produced. This will confirm that the cycling bacteria are still around and capable.

You scaled up your nitrifiers to handle 2ppm ammonia per day, but they won't see near that much under normal conditions, so their capacity drops over time to the very low actual demand for ammonia processing. This drop in capacity is pretty slow, but you also had a big bacterial bloom. This may have disrupted (but not destroyed) the nitrifying biofilms also.

So again, I think the nitrifiers are around just in smaller numbers than you expected.

(if you still see no reduction in ammonia and no NO2 produced, then there is a different issue to deal with)

 

[JCATL]

The short answer is that I will bet things are fine - just slower than expected. Since you can't see much change in ammonia test - If you do a nitrite test, I think you will find some NO2 is being produced. This will confirm that the cycling bacteria are still around and capable.

You scaled up your nitrifiers to handle 2ppm ammonia per day, but they won't see near that much under normal conditions, so their capacity drops over time to the very low actual demand for ammonia processing. This drop in capacity is pretty slow, but you also had a big bacterial bloom. This may have disrupted (but not destroyed) the nitrifying biofilms also.

So again, I think the nitrifiers are around just in smaller numbers than you expected.

(if you still see no reduction in ammonia and no NO2 produced, then there is a different issue to deal with)

Thanks for the reply. I did a 20% water change yesterday and that made a slight improvement. I tested again and as you suggested, there is very slight nitrite. On my test kit (red sea) it's in between zero and the next lowest number, very faint, but something is there. I'll let it be for a couple of days and keep testing.

I did not know that the bacteria bloom would cause that. What causes the bacteria bloom and would there be any benefit at this point to dose anymore beneficial bacteria? Should I just leave well enough alone and let things settle?

Thanks again for the replies, @taricha and @Dan_P

 

[olonmv]

Mb7 is loaded with nitrifying bacteria. I’d try that to raise your bac population. Nitrite at zero is the goal. That means nitrification is taking place.

 

[brandon429]

We, as hobbyists, accept any stated param as fact and immediately move to limiting the most adapted organisms in our tanks to fit the stated param condition

Literally I could make a ghost profile, begin by saying my nineteen week cycle can't move past 1ppm and it'll be immediately supported as true.

There are no eight week delayed cycles

None

Taricha

Broken cycle article will be the most important article this decade pls rush it


Guess how I know this isn't a seneye thread written by the op

T

You need seneye data
I know you'll use the hanna but for the only cycling study in recent memory why not extra mile it, hit it out of the park, and try and break or stall seneye cycles among real rocks in a full nano display?

 

[brandon429]

It would be like writing an article about what a Ferrari does by using a corvette as a test machine. Get seneye please man. Dr reef would send you six of them lol then u mail em back

 

[brandon429]

Prediction
What happened to vibrant happens to bottle bac sales after the article but in a nicer way lol with no prosecution

Just a bunch of collective a-ha! I knew my bacteria were never dead responses will follow

 

[brandon429]

Even if you used api I'd buy your findings as valid. It would be like getting to watch sosa break the record

But if you did seneye that's sitting behind the net row 1 for Ryan's 5000th

Both are amazing to see, one is stellar

 

[olonmv]

Even if you used api I'd buy your findings as valid. It would be like getting to watch sosa break the record

But if you did seneye that's sitting behind the net row 1 for Ryan's 5000th

Both are amazing to see, one is stellar

I don’t understand why a $200+ piece of equipment that monitors only temp ph and ammonia is recommended as a necessity when in reality those parameters are rarely tested after the cycle and can be tested with simple cheap test kits/strips. After my cycle, ammonia was never/rarely tested and ph is seldomly tested (for me). What am I missing?

Also, I recently seeded a reactor with MB7 (along with many others) and it went fantastic.

 

[brandon429]

this thread indicates not everybody is as resolved as you are about ammonia

in fact, until you posted it was entertained the bac were dead

 

[olonmv]

this thread indicates not everybody is as resolved as you are about ammonia

in fact, until you posted it was entertained the bac were dead

I get this but, how does a $200+ machine push someone through the cycle is what I’m asking, I guess. I get monitoring but nothing past that, I’m not following.

All im saying is, a $20 bottle of bac will usually get people past their “stuck” cycle woes.

 

[brandon429]

We need it because it shows thousandths-ppm level CHANGES even if the ph/bottom end reading isn't exactly .002 as stated on a typical machine (pH and temp factoring tbd)

changes and failure to report back down are the heart of millions of cycling posts

nothing registers cycling changes and stasis better than seneye, its clear and postable as a chart from the machine itself showing # of hours to resolve etc, the very thing in denial in stuck cycle posts.


you need seneye because a multi-million dollar sales industry for bottle bac sales, replenishment for contantly claimed dead bacteria, are supported by non-digital testers and nobody who owns a seneye gets fearful about ammonia control

we need the best of the best and not a short cut, for once in humanity, is why

my stuck cycle help threads number in the hundreds of pages of work constantly identifying false stuck cycle posts, only you and six other people feel that resolved on the entire planet.

 

[brandon429]

100% guaranteed this poster has already bought reimbursement bacteria or is considering it, to fix the broken cycle







*******bottle bac sellers have been clear and honest about nh4/3 impacts on the perception of stalled cycles. It's forum peers that drive the constant attribution that water bacteria failed to set up shop in water. eons of adaptation failed because someone perceives .5 or 8 ppm on a non digital test kit and peers largely agree: buy more bacteria.

we need seneye because this is a big deal, a market shaker, leave no room for shortcuts.

I think bottle bac sellers failed us on this:

don't factor nor test for nitrite in a marine display cycle


they said that nitrite issues cause ammonia noncontrol, Ive shown that to be false by assembling four years of tanks with no deaths all controlling ammonia just fine, during a high nitrite measurement. we specifically amassed high nitrite tanks to see if they can't carry ammonia loading (to keep fish alive, a tank must process ammonia)

and after 4 years in one thread, no losses. Some podium claims on stalling is turning out to be untrue, however we want to accept it. *I have no doubt that a study somewhere on levels of nitrite a reef tank will never see shows a stall

but it will never occur in someone's cycling display reef, nitrite stalling is a complete and total sales lark responsible for millions of dollars in bottle bac oversells. We have one thread thats twenty pages lol of just folks reacting to high nitrite by buying more bottle bac. one fella was up to eight bottles


we had a remote intervention


that's why we need this article.

cycling madness is driving all kinds of sales redundancy/ it's a market shifter to study that and write about it.

even though it's outside the purview of ammonia oxidation rates in cycled reefs, someone should be clear about nitrite in any new cycling article. It has no factor or usefulness in a marine display cycle setting. don't try and insert nine ways its chemically helpful to know considering we've stopped referencing it for years now in updated cycling science threads, we simply don't need to know it.


someone be direct for once on nitrite in the marine display tank cycle.

if we want to factor it in freshwater or hyposalinity setups/per R's article/it's great to know. separate just once the marine display high surface area high salinity cycle from all the fear about nitrite stalling and simply let folks be free of that test kit + reaction sequence when cycling a marine display tank.


We don't just need taricha's seneye study on cycle stalling, Ill accept hanna too if it reinforces my findings heh, we need an entire new macna podium talk explaining why forum cycles keep getting away with breaking their rules given to us by the prior podium talk on cycling (nitrite stalling was heavy included, for display reef tanking)

we need the podium talk to tell us why no seneye threads show ammonia stalling/hundreds of thousands of them
we were just given a talk a few years ago that ammonia stalling happens. studying the contrast in claims vs outcome should weigh heavy in the next article on cycling rules from macna. ideally the podium talk would talk about the massive sales driver we've charted between nitrite factoring and marine display reef tank cycling. I predict that part might be left out though he he

 

[olonmv]

It’s still a no for me on the seneye. I’m just not seeing the return on an investment of that sort. Once the cycle is complete, it’ll basically be a fancy temp monitor at best. For that kinda money I’d rather invest in something useful like a trident or something similar. At least the parameters that matter to me would be continuously monitored. I’ve read lots of posts with problems with dr Tim’s seeding tanks vs others, like mb7. I cycled my tank the long way….dead rock/sand with a headless prawn. Took forever…..wish I would have known about MB7 back when I started. I definitely would have had it in my arsenal.

 

[Dbichler]

@brandon429 isnt saying you need to buy one. He’s staring the fact that you can’t stall or break a cycle. Once you have nitrifying bacteria it’s there and capable of doing its job. No need to buy more bottle bac.