A call to Dino experts

[Octane13]

Not really sure how to start except a background of the tank/parameters and chain of events.

Tank is fairly new been up since November 2017. Most of the events are about a month old

"Current" Parameters (this morning) Taken with RedSea kit and Hanna alk checker

Temp: 78.9
PH: 8.2
Salinity: 1.025
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: Haven't tested since Feb
Nitrate: <5 but >0
Calcium 490
Alk: 8.1
Mag: 1440

Events--
6/10-- Nitrate drop from 10 to ~5
6/17-- Nitrate drop to <5
6/18 --Alk to 7.3 (Added a dosing pump and it missed a day)
6/29-- Added Pods from algae barn and started to add Phyto (as stated on bottle)
7/1 -- Tank temp to 81 deg (indicated). Heat wave lasted 3 days before I got my ac in
7/3 -- weekly water change (10 gallons)
7/6 -- Cyano showed up along with suspected Dino's

*** Reading as much as I can about Dino outbreaks and looking for a way fwd***
Began to siphon sand bed and rocks through filter sock and returning water back to tank

This has kept it it at bay on the sand. Has had a negative affect on the rock work.

EDIT: Am I really dealing with Dino's? And where should I go from here?

 

[miPapareef]

Am I really dealing with Dino's? And where should I go from here?

Sorry to hear about this problem. Yes those are dinos and you should head over to this thread. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-–-are-you-tired-of-battling-altogether.293318/ That’s wher all the dino experts hang out. And they really helped me out.

 

[mcarroll]

6/10-- Nitrate drop from 10 to ~5
6/17-- Nitrate drop to <5

This is the tank sliding into starvation. Would be interesting to know phosphate levels.

Starvation is what seems to provoke dino's into blooming. Cyano thrives in somewhat similar circumstance, so they're not uncommon together. "Co-blooming"

Check out the first post here: Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

You can see some tests that you can run, as well as a ton of other info on the first page.

Also check out the hyperlinked list of dino types that will take you to posts where those particular types have had their ID's confirmed in the past so you can compare.

 

[Octane13]

Yea I should have posted it there... There are so many opinions and options I have no idea where to start

 

[mcarroll]

Just start with reading the first post.

 

[mcarroll]

(that's enough to begin with and should get you started in the right direction)

 

[miPapareef]

What really helped me was dedicated dosing and stable nutrient levels.

1. Dosing phosphate- I used NeoPhos to get to 0.1 to 0.15
2. Dosing nitrate - I used stump remover to get to 10 ppm
3. Then sucking all the dead Dino ditritus from the sump, rocks and sand.

It took a ridiculous amount of dosing at first to get the nutrient levels to rise

 

[Octane13]

What really helped me was dedicated dosing and stable nutrient levels.

1. Dosing phosphate- I used NeoPhos to get to 0.1 to 0.15
2. Dosing nitrate - I used stump remover to get to 10 ppm
3. Then sucking all the dead Dino ditritus from the sump, rocks and sand.

It took a ridiculous amount of dosing at first to get the nutrient levels to rise

Starting with sump detritus is an easy start.

 

[HexaReef]

I think a big reason Dino forces people out of the hobby is because hobbyists treat it like anything else in the hobby when something in your tank doesn't look right. WATER CHANGES, WATER CHANGES, WATER CHANGES. Or, they add Cheato to bring down phosphate further.

WC's make the problem worse because you further deplete the nutrients in the water for competing algae's to grow. And since dinoflagellates feed off of sunlight, AKA photosynthetic, they can live in clean water with no nutrients feeding purely off of sunlight. But, if you raise the nitrates and the phosphates you're giving the good algae food to compete against the dinoflagellates.

1. Did you use dry Rock?
2. Are you over skimming?
3. Are you dosing?

I did a 3-day complete blackout, shut off my skimmer, and kept feeding my fish during the blackout, as well as lowered my light intensity by about 10% on each Spectrum, and I have not seen any Dino since.

It's from my experience that to clean of water contributes to the growth of dinoflagellates.

 

[ncaldwell]

It's a tough one for sure. I've done more black outside than I can count, left my sump dirty, stopped doing water changes for almost 6 months, had nitrates between 20-40 and phosphate between .08 and .10 steady for about 18 months. Me and the dinos are at an uneasy truce, they dont kill my sps and I dont drop a stick of dynamite in the tank. Sadly there or 50 different ways to beat it and everyone knows the correct way and its super easy.... Best thing you can do is identify the type of dinos then look through the other thread and write down the top ways people have killed it off, pick the easiest one and work your way down the list. Increased nutrients for starters, then maybe a blackout, UV sterilizer, then try peroxide dosing or vibrant dosing(kind of working for me) then if all else fails threaten it with dynamite

 

[ZaneTer]

OP
I feel your pain. Dinos have been by far the most difficult natural disaster to occur in my tank.

Mine occurred because I had bottomed out PO4 in my tank. I have a very efficient large refugium that completely stripped it from the water column. I bought some trisodium phosphate from amazon and began dosing.

Within a week I noticed a reduction in the daily quantity of dinos grown. In 4 weeks all signs of dinos were gone (visible to the naked eye). Whatever the exact variety was that I had, I do not wish it in any aquarium. It was extremely toxic and destroyed any tissue it began growing on.

I will never run ULNS because of this. I don’t need the pastel colours or the fastest possible growth. I am quite happy with richer colours and medium growth. I wish you the best of luck on getting your problem under control.

 

[Octane13]

This is the tank sliding into starvation. Would be interesting to know phosphate levels.

Starvation is what seems to provoke dino's into blooming. Cyano thrives in somewhat similar circumstance, so they're not uncommon together. "Co-blooming"

Also check out the hyperlinked list of dino types that will take you to posts where those particular types have had their ID's confirmed in the past so you can compare.

I had to order a new kit for phosphates when It comes in I will post the results. As far as starvation I would agree it was a quick drop in levels my nitrates were steady at 20+ for the longest time and all seemed well. I assumed the drop was the tank maturing and my fuge finally taking effect. Maybe my tank showed signs of nutrient deficiencies and I missed it (could be linking two unrelated things also). I think back to one of my previous posts about a frogspawn dying and someone suggested low nutrient levels in the tank could be the cause. I will post my pictures in the main discussion for a more positive ID.

 

[mcarroll]

my nitrates were steady at 20+ for the longest time and all seemed well. I assumed the drop was the tank maturing and my fuge finally taking effect.

You weren't wrong....but the decline to zero was that maturation process running out of essential building blocks.

The fuge may have been partly responsible and could even be worth disabling. There should be no real need for a fuge on a brand new tank anyway. (Not a macro algae fuge, I mean. A space is fine. )

 

[Octane13]

The fuge may have been partly responsible and could even be worth disabling. There should be no real need for a fuge on a brand new tank anyway. (Not a macro algae fuge, I mean. A space is fine. )[/QUOTE]

New to the salt world so I was just following the herd. I suppose best course would be to shut it down for now.

 

[mcarroll]

Well, you have to consider what's important to you....if you want to keep it online, you're gonna have to feed it. It has the same requirements for nutrients as your coral do.

So you'll be managing NO3 and PO4 by hand via testing and dosing. Have a green thumb?

IMO that's a lot of work for algae when you want to be focusing on the tank, fish and corals. If you're trying to be a good beginner/student, then there's no need to overcomplicate things – simplify when possible.

But that's not to say there's anything wrong with growing macro as long as you stay on top of it. If you don't it can definitely have a negative impact on a developing system as it wants to dominate (and can) just like anything else. Without competition, it kinda has in your tank.

FYI, a mature tank is a whole different beast than a new one.

Nutrients are tightly recycled in lots of ways so they don't even end up in the water column except in tiny fractions. Only very overloaded tanks require more "filtration", so you can wait until your tank gets there to add it. You should be adding fish slowly – 1-2 at a time with many weeks in between additions...months are even OK since you have CUC and corals to stock in between – so it won't be a surprise need, it's something you'll be able to plan for at the right time. You might even decide to stock lightly enough that you will never need it.

So anyway, a growing wad of macro algae in a mature tank is "just another mouth at the table", and nutrient dominance should hardly ever be an issue. Unlike now.

 

[Solis Reef]

I need some reading to do

 

[HexaReef]

As an example, this is my buddies 30g tank thats a little over a year old. It has no sump, nor does it have a refugium.

His practice is not to follow the herd, but to take things slow and be patient. He only does 5 gallon WC's every 2 weeks and daily top off.

So what im getting at is, by my own experience, is that trying to be like the hobbyists that have been in this a long time, often get the new guys into trouble.

Take things slow amigo, and although some would disagree, i say focus on biweekly WC's, feeding your livestock in small quantities, and do less testing. It seams like new hobbyists test too much, making them think the need to counteract or counterbalance the parameters which oftern screws things up.

 

[Octane13]

OP
I feel your pain. Dinos have been by far the most difficult natural disaster to occur in my tank.

Mine occurred because I had bottomed out PO4 in my tank. I have a very efficient large refugium that completely striped. I bought some trisodium phosphate from amazon and began dosing.

Within a week I noticed a reduction in the daily quantity of dinos grown. In 4 weeks all signs of dinos were gone (visible to the naked eye). Whatever the exact variety was that I had, I do not wish it in any aquarium. It was extremely toxic and destroyed any tissue it began growing on.

I will never run ULNS because of this. I don’t need the pastel colours or the fastest possible growth. I am quite happy with richer colours and medium growth. I wish you the best of luck on getting your problem under control.

Do you remember which TSP you got. link?

 

[Octane13]

Just tested p04 with salifert kit. It was zero. I have been feeding the tank 3-4 times a day and my nitrates have dropped to 0 also.... I just shut down the skimmer and I think Dosing is needed

 

[ZaneTer]

@Octane13

I just bought 500grams from amazon. It is very easy to get hold of. Just remember a little goes a long way. I have used probably around 20grams in the last 9 months...... on a 200 gallon system.

I probably wouldn’t switch off the skimmer personally as it does more than just remove NO3 and PO4. Have a look on the chemistry section, Dr Farley has post for calculating the amounts needed for dosing TSP. You will need a very accurate milligram scale.