A comment about ammonia and cycling

[MnFish1]

I've been thinking. I know a dangerous thing. Obviously - high amounts of free ammonia (NH3) are toxic - There are a number of products out there - that purport to detoxify/eliminate this. BUT - the question - in our tanks - how often does this ammonia level ever become a problem (with cycling - of course - if you're adding ammonium chloride)?

Total ammonia does not easily translate into toxicity. Because at the pH of our aquaria assuming 8.0. The amount of 'toxic ammonia NH3' - is not an issue at .25 total and depending on salinity/pH/temp - even higher levels would not cause toxic issues/death. IMHO - the issue comes down to SUDDEN spikes in ammonia (total/free) - that result from a death - that causes another death etc etc etc - a cascade of sorts. Then heterotrophs - take over - using up the oxygen in the tank and worsening things even more.

I just wonder how often ammonia causes a problem. The higher the pH - the more likely it is to cause a problem. @Lasse

 

[SlugSnorter]

ammonia (NH3) can be an issue at 0.25.

Ammonium is semi-harmless but there should not be much in your tank, its a sign of decaying stuff and if PH shifts too much it will become ammonia

 

[vetteguy53081]

ammonia (NH3) can be an issue at 0.25.

Ammonium is semi-harmless but there should not be much in your tank, its a sign of decaying stuff and if PH shifts too much it will become ammonia

At ,025, acceptable high
Above.05, there’s likely problems already noticeable

 

[SlugSnorter]

At ,025, acceptable high
Above.05, there’s likely problems already noticeable

can't 0.25 (NH3) bother sensitive livestock?

 

[HuduVudu]

Don't forget the anion. It needs to be accounted for long term.

 

[Malcontent]

I'm not sure a death would cause a rapid increase in ammonia given how much trouble people have attempting to start a cycle with food, raw shrimp, etc., instead of ammonia.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I've been thinking. I know a dangerous thing. Obviously - high amounts of free ammonia (NH3) are toxic - There are a number of products out there - that purport to detoxify/eliminate this. BUT - the question - in our tanks - how often does this ammonia level ever become a problem (with cycling - of course - if you're adding ammonium chloride)?

Total ammonia does not easily translate into toxicity. Because at the pH of our aquaria assuming 8.0. The amount of 'toxic ammonia NH3' - is not an issue at .25 total and depending on salinity/pH/temp - even higher levels would not cause toxic issues/death. IMHO - the issue comes down to SUDDEN spikes in ammonia (total/free) - that result from a death - that causes another death etc etc etc - a cascade of sorts. Then heterotrophs - take over - using up the oxygen in the tank and worsening things even more.

I just wonder how often ammonia causes a problem. The higher the pH - the more likely it is to cause a problem. @Lasse

I've not seen data suggesting ammonia is a concern in operating reef tanks.

I was hoping the Mindstream would give good continuous info on ammonia, but that never happened. Seneye seems iffy to me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Don't forget the anion. It needs to be accounted for long term.

Was that intended for this thread?

 

[vetteguy53081]

can't 0.25 (NH3) bother sensitive livestock?

Define sensitive
Mist fish in the trade can tolerate it as it often builds to that level not yet regarded as toxic
Obviously when you hit or approach .025, one should be preparing a water change

 

[Lasse]

ammonia (NH3) can be an issue at 0.25.

Yes NH3 is an issue at 0.25 but 95 % of the "ammonia" test do test for total ammonia (NH4 +NH3) but in the US still is named ammonia test. Rest of the world differ between ammonium and ammoniac (NH4 and NH3) there ammonium is harmless but ammoniac (NH3) is toxic. Here is a calculator to understand what your test of total ammonia really means according to toxicity

Free Ammonia Calculator

Aquarium calculator; Estimate the free (un-ionized) ammonia (NH3) concentration, given the total ammonia concentration.

www.hamzasreef.com

Total ammonia of 5.5 ppm will give a NH3 concentration around 0.25 - 25 degree C and pH 8

Obviously when you hit or approach .025

it means a total ammonia (NH4+NH3) content of 0.55 ppm , 25 degree C and pH 8. IMO - not acute toxic but not wanted for a long time

Sincerely Lasse

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yes NH3 is an issue at 0.25 but 95 % of the "ammonia" test do test for total ammonia (NH4 +NH3) but in the US still is named ammonia test. Rest of the world differ between ammonium and ammoniac (NH4 and NH3) there ammonium is harmless but ammoniac (NH3) is toxic. Here is a calculator to understand what your test of total ammonia really means according to toxicity

Free Ammonia Calculator

Aquarium calculator; Estimate the free (un-ionized) ammonia (NH3) concentration, given the total ammonia concentration.

www.hamzasreef.com

Total ammonia of 5.5 ppm will give a NH3 concentration around 0.25 - 25 degree C and pH 8


it means a total ammonia (NH4+NH3) content of 0.55 ppm , 25 degree C and pH 8. IMO - not acute toxic but not wanted for a long time

Sincerely Lasse

Agree why I consider it non-detrimental

 

[MnFish1]

Yes NH3 is an issue at 0.25 but 95 % of the "ammonia" test do test for total ammonia (NH4 +NH3) but in the US still is named ammonia test. Rest of the world differ between ammonium and ammoniac (NH4 and NH3) there ammonium is harmless but ammoniac (NH3) is toxic. Here is a calculator to understand what your test of total ammonia really means according to toxicity

Free Ammonia Calculator

Aquarium calculator; Estimate the free (un-ionized) ammonia (NH3) concentration, given the total ammonia concentration.

www.hamzasreef.com

Total ammonia of 5.5 ppm will give a NH3 concentration around 0.25 - 25 degree C and pH 8


it means a total ammonia (NH4+NH3) content of 0.55 ppm , 25 degree C and pH 8. IMO - not acute toxic but not wanted for a long time

Sincerely Lasse

Sorry - I meant a TOTAL ammonia - of .25 - not an NH3

 

[MnFish1]

ammonia (NH3) can be an issue at 0.25.

Ammonium is semi-harmless but there should not be much in your tank, its a sign of decaying stuff and if PH shifts too much it will become ammonia

OK - I think youre not getting the point - I was talking about total ammonia (NH4 and NH3) as compared to NH3

 

[MnFish1]

I'm not sure a death would cause a rapid increase in ammonia given how much trouble people have attempting to start a cycle with food, raw shrimp, etc., instead of ammonia.

What?

 

[MnFish1]

Yes NH3 is an issue at 0.25 but 95 % of the "ammonia" test do test for total ammonia (NH4 +NH3) but in the US still is named ammonia test. Rest of the world differ between ammonium and ammoniac (NH4 and NH3) there ammonium is harmless but ammoniac (NH3) is toxic. Here is a calculator to understand what your test of total ammonia really means according to toxicity

Free Ammonia Calculator

Aquarium calculator; Estimate the free (un-ionized) ammonia (NH3) concentration, given the total ammonia concentration.

www.hamzasreef.com

Total ammonia of 5.5 ppm will give a NH3 concentration around 0.25 - 25 degree C and pH 8


it means a total ammonia (NH4+NH3) content of 0.55 ppm , 25 degree C and pH 8. IMO - not acute toxic but not wanted for a long time

Sincerely Lasse

Agreed - I think the 'English'/'american' words are total ammonia and free ammonia. But - based not he responses here - there is still an extreme misunderstanding (not yours - in general)

 

[Malcontent]

What?

I don't think a dead fish will turn into ammonia that quickly. People attempting to start cycles using raw shrimp, fish food, etc., instead of ammonia have a hard time getting things going.

 

[MnFish1]

ammonia (NH3) can be an issue at 0.25.

Ammonium is semi-harmless but there should not be much in your tank, its a sign of decaying stuff and if PH shifts too much it will become ammonia

Ammonium is not a common English word.I think you're trying to say 'free ammonia' there should not be much in your tank.

 

[MnFish1]

I don't think a dead fish will turn into ammonia that quickly. People attempting to start cycles using raw shrimp, fish food, etc., instead of ammonia have a hard time getting things going.

Based on what?

 

[Malcontent]

Based on what?

Not assuming mineralization takes place instantly. It adds an additional step to the cycle since the microbes needed don't exist in sufficient numbers unless you're in the habit of leaving a lot of uneaten food in your tank.

 

[MnFish1]

Not assuming mineralization takes place instantly. It adds an additional step to the cycle since the microbes needed don't exist in sufficient numbers unless you're in the habit of leaving a lot of uneaten food in your tank.

Mineralization implies a specific thing - having nothing to do with microbes.
verb (used with object), min·er·al·ized, min·er·al·iz·ing.
to convert into a mineral substance.

This does not have a huge amount to do with the discussion? Or?