A definition for " live rock".

[Belgian Anthias]

I have a few pieces of mined reef rock, I clean it in acidic water, wash and sterilize in boiling water to remove air from the pores, I store it without bringing it in contact with air.
I order a mix of fresh tropical diversity, scrapings from reef rock and sand, crumble, selected, harvested and packed on place, underwater.
I order a mix of tropical life, micro, and macro plankton.

Everything is sent to me on the same day express delivery 24h.
I place everything in a well lit refuge.
I add some fresh natural seawater.
How long will it take for the rock to become " live rock"
Will it ever become " live rock" or " life rock"?

 

[EMeyer]

No, mined limestone has so little porosity its about as porous as a concrete block or a brick. I wouldnt bother with the experiment unless as a control.

IMO a more interesting experiment would be to do the same with real coral skeletons (the proper substrate for live rock), and after a year or two measure the microbial community inside the rock.

I bet the coral skeletons would develop communities like real live rock (from the ocean) within a year or two. I doubt the mined rock, or bricks, or concrete blocks, ever would. Since whats inside is just solid rock, instead of a lovely branching system of interconnected tunnels.

 

[Aqua Man]

Coral skeleton

mined “rock”

to me it seems that the mined rock has more holes and isn’t as heavy and dense.

Took one of each to friend to put in his system. Took 6 months for tube worms to start growing.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I think there may be big differences in mined rock.
Mined rock may also contain a lot of magnesium.
But also reef rock may differ a lot in density.



A lot of research is available about the use of GAC, the most porous rock out there, not only as an absorber but also as a biofilter. One liter of the best clean GAC has a huge internal surface but only can absorb max about 90ml of water. This without any growth in or on it. Once the GAC becomes covered with growth the water exchange and refresh rate is very limited. One may expect the same of porous rock although it will never have the same surface as GAC, which means the filtration capacity of the inside, due to porosity, will also be very limited.

If one wants to support the filtration capacity one does not need rock at all, as a thin layer of medium coral sand will be more effective. if one wants to support a high bio-load, one uses a biofilter. About biofiltration, it is just a usable surface.

One does not need any rock for importing diversity needed to support the carrying capacity of the system!

" live rock" is about importing "life" which can not be imported otherwise, endemic organisms living in and on reef rock.
I think it should contain a lot of endemic life. worms, sponges, borers, etc..

Endemic life is adapted to the dept, to the pressure and light conditions where it lives.
A lot of reef aquaria have blue lighting, must we culture and harvest the rock at dept 20 meters to have the same light spectrum conditions? Or not deeper as a few meters?
What happens to that life if we bring it to the surface, in open-air and direct sunlight?

 

[Ksull72487]

You often use "fake"

In the case of " live" or "life" rock, what is fake? Making the difference between fake and not fake in a definition? You assume there is real "live rock" out there., which is not "fake" This must be a piece of the reef, harvested and packed without being in contact with air and delivered before ammonia builds up in the water before remineralization stops due to the biological oxygen demand.
Once at the surface most benthic organisms have exploded as they can not relieve the pressure in their cells. The bag will not contain air. What will be the effect of air on marine micro-live?
Even someone living at the shore of a tropical reef area will be delivered "fake".

Real " live rock "probably must be harvested very close to the surface? How many meters max?

Maybe real " live rock" only can be cultured in your own home?

Importing biological diversity or and microbial communities one does not need a piece of rock. If one wants fresh local tropical diversity it is possible to deliver it within 24h all over the world by plane, The weight of the rock can be replaced by life-supporting water. If not transported in a non-pressurized and minimal heated cargo of a Russian Antonov.
In most cases, the luggage area of planes is just kept frost free, lowering metabolism during transport, which can be good or bad. Live animals are transported on the flight deck, the place is limited.
A reason to transport " live rock" dry? I think the price will be the judge.

Dry rock? Packed in newspaper? Most marine microbial life is not able to make cysts to survive dry conditions, why should they? In their evolution of several million years, they never have been confronted with dry conditions.

What is "fake"?

Yeah I was quick to write that. Fake rock as didn’t come from a reef or ocean. It cycled in an aquatics store and started as dry rock etc.

 

[SMSREEF]

I think there may be big differences in mined rock.
Mined rock may also contain a lot of magnesium.
But also reef rock may differ a lot in density.



A lot of research is available about the use of GAC, the most porous rock out there, not only as an absorber but also as a biofilter. One liter of the best clean GAC has a huge internal surface but only can absorb max about 90ml of water. This without any growth in or on it. Once the GAC becomes covered with growth the water exchange and refresh rate is very limited. One may expect the same of porous rock although it will never have the same surface as GAC, which means the filtration capacity of the inside, due to porosity, will also be very limited.

If one wants to support the filtration capacity one does not need rock at all, as a thin layer of medium coral sand will be more effective. if one wants to support a high bio-load, one uses a biofilter. About biofiltration, it is just a usable surface.

One does not need any rock for importing diversity needed to support the carrying capacity of the system!

" live rock" is about importing "life" which can not be imported otherwise, endemic organisms living in and on reef rock.
I think it should contain a lot of endemic life. worms, sponges, borers, etc..

Endemic life is adapted to the dept, to the pressure and light conditions where it lives.
A lot of reef aquaria have blue lighting, must we culture and harvest the rock at dept 20 meters to have the same light spectrum conditions? Or not deeper as a few meters?
What happens to that life if we bring it to the surface, in open-air and direct sunlight?

Life can survive very adverse conditions.
My sponges, coral frags, macroalgae have all been out of water for a time.
Life is much more resilient than you are giving it credit for.
Heck, people have brought clams and oysters home from the grocery store where they were on ice and not in water for days, and now they are part of their living reef.

 

[Subsea]

If one wants to support the filtration capacity one does not need rock at all, as a thin layer of medium coral sand will be more effective. if one wants to support a high bio-load, one uses a biofilter. About biofiltration, it is just a usable surface.

One does not need any rock for importing diversity needed to support the carrying capacity of the system!

" live rock" is about importing "life" which can not be imported otherwise, endemic organisms living in and on reef rock.
I think it should contain a lot of endemic life. worms, sponges, borers, etc..

Endemic life is adapted to the dept, to the pressure and light conditions where it lives.
A lot of reef aquaria have blue lighting, must we culture and harvest the rock at dept 20 meters to have the same light spectrum conditions? Or not deeper as a few meters?
What happens to that life if we bring it to the surface, in open-air and direct sunlight?

Amen! Amen! Amen!

Thank you for the topic. For certain, substrate provides ample surface for biofiltration purposes. Real Life Rock is uncured rock from the ocean and it brings in diversity of micro fauna & fana, macro algaes, bryozoans, sponges as well as hard & soft corals.

Gulf Live Rock.com

gulfliverock.com

[This rock is fully blanketed with colorful coralline algae's, these algae's come in multitudes of fascinating shades of purple, reds, oranges, peaches and yellows. Most rocks contain bryzoans,orange leather sponge,gracilaria algae,halimeda, sea grapes, cluster corals, and cup corals. All of our premium decorative live rocks contain seeded plant life,both macro and micro algae.All pieces are hand collected fresh from our gulf lease site by our diving staff and shipped directly to our customers.We do not use any chemicals in our process. The rocks pictured are for example only. All of our premium decorative live rock is as good or better than the rocks pictured. This is Florida Aquacultured live rock.
All of our live rock comes from our personal Federal Aquaculture Lease site located 10 miles offshore in the Gulf of Mexico. All of our rock was planted on the ocean floor in 1994. So you can image how much marine life has grown on it in over the last 15 years.]

 

[Subsea]

It's like saying that wild harvested fish are more resilient or better because they are more diverse in gut bacteria, slime coat bacteria, etc, etc... whereas we all know captive breeds are far more resilient in an aquarium environment due to their microevolution and adaptation to living in an aquarium environment.

Who's to say that the bacteria we have in our aquariums are'nt outperforming wild ocean bacteria, simply because they have adapted and evolved in an aquarium environment.

See where I am going?

I would accept that logic as superior Reefkeeping if it were not for over abundance disease threads/nuisance algae or bacteria threads on those forums.

 

[shred5]

There is no reason to assume live rock or corals have to be harvested unsustainably. These are renewable resources that grow faster than trees, but we manage trees so well that heavily logged lands in the Pacific Northwest are increasing in tree cover over time rather than decreasing. Funny how when a resource is economically valuable, people are incentivized to preserve it.

Not to mention that bans on wild harvest of corals and live rock take income away from developing countries, and are not always decided by the people of those countries.

We should push for sustainable harvest in this, as in all natural resources. Bans are nearly always the wrong way to go except in extreme cases (e.g. whales).

All the aquarium industry bans in the world don't stop people living near the reef from destroying living reefs for coastal development, or prevent them from using pieces of the recently killed reef as fill for construction projects.

All they do, is remove one of the economic incentives to keep it alive.

That is what people do not get: Liverock is renewable. Every time a hurricane hits it crushes the reef. You are not destroying a reef picking up a few rocks laying around.

Really people think dead mined rock is not destroying the earth? Really digging a big hole in the earth is doing nothing? Is it renewable? Let me tell you the mined dry rock will come to a end because there is only so much you can take out of the ground at a certain spot.

 

[Jeffcb]

I am getting ready to do a 240 gallon tank. Building mixing station now. Will be using Florida or Gulf live rock like I did in the 90s. Old school like. It will take probably 3 or 4 loads and several months. Its a pain to cycle, smelly and and takes a long time but well worth it. Staring at the Live Rock with all the life that's on it is just as enjoyable as watching a coral sit there!

 

[Subsea]

I am getting ready to do a 240 gallon tank. Building mixing station now. Will be using Florida or Gulf live rock like I did in the 90s. Old school like. It will take probably 3 or 4 loads and several months. Its a pain to cycle, smelly and and takes a long time but well worth it. Staring at the Live Rock with all the life that's on it is just as enjoyable as watching a coral sit there!

When I set up my 120G, I added 100 lbs of Gulf live rock. No fish or corals added for first 6 months. Snails added at week four. For me, watching dragons breath and red Grapes grow sprouts from rock surface was my enjoy.

Just call me “Old Nostalgia”. We nurture what we love. I say the proof is in the pudding. I have systems set up
> 25 yrs. For me, reefkeeping in not a battle to manhandle nature. It is a symphony to be conducted in harmony with nature.

@Jeffcb101
Wintertime is less favorable for diving conditions.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Using fresh "life rock", it is covered and filled with organic material. On the reef, high remineralization, nitrification and denitrification rates can be measured on such rock. Also a high nitrogen fixation rate. Once in the aquarium, most of the organic material will be removed by grazing and degeneration by which the usable surface of such rock, which includes the surface of everything growing on it, will be drastically reduced, what is in pores will be released. The leaking of nutrients from the rock may take months, years.

Such a piece of " live " rock will provide a lot of building materials to install a carrying capacity in a new setup aquarium, building materials not sufficiently present in fresh-made water. One good piece?

A healthy coral on its base rock ( coral holobiont) will provide all diversity needed to keep a reef aquarium?
In the case, base rock seeded with corals, will it ever become "live" rock?

If we use a piece of natural reef life rock we have to keep it in quarantine for some time and add food traps. We try to figure out what is in the food traps. Then it is kept in a refuge and we try to keep everything alive as long as possible, seeding the tank. After a few months, it will look completely different and is placed in the display tank.

Charles & Linda Raabe are using the following definitions:
LIVE ROCK = Calcium carbonate or Lava based rock that has been colonized by a multitude of life forms including, but not limited to: corals, sponges, algae, inverts, worms and of course bacteria which forms a habitat unto its own. This type of habitat forms the foundation of all tropical reefs.
BASE ROCK = Calcium carbonate or Lava rock that is void of all life forms and is primarily used as a "base" to put live rock or corals on top of it. NOTE: If the base rock has been in an established tank, then it will most likely have the filtering bacterias already on it. I do not consider this type of rock to be correctly termed as live rock. ( Raabe2009)

Can you take bare base rock and put it in with live rock to turn the base rock into live rock? Yes and No....No because the base rock will never become as the live rock was found in nature. Yes because those same life forms that are left behind untouched by the herbivores and predators will spread to the base rock, making the base rock look exactly as what the live rock has been reduced to. ( Raabe2009)

I believe it is imperative that any true reef aquarium system be comprised of multiple aquariums set up as refugiums for the various habitats that make a coral reef possible. To try and contain all within a single reef aquarium will only result in frustrated failure as noted above. I strongly recommend the use of filamentous algae "filters", sea grass habitat refugiums and macro algae refugiums be tied into the main coral display aquarium. Doing so will allow a much higher degree of biodiversity to be maintained, which will in turn, maintain your coral reef display. (Charels Raabe2009)


Lava based rock as base rock in a reef aquarium? I prefer calcium carbonate-based base rock.