A discussion on immunity

[dbrewsky]

So I wanted to throw out a concept, by no means am I a biologist or medical professional. Humans and other mammals can develop communities to bacteria and viruses and if re-infected, the anti-bodies will defeat the invaders and prevent the ailment. But I have been bitten by mosquitoes and ticks thousands of times and will continue to forever. I don't think it is possible for any animal to develop a biological resistance to more complex organisms in a parasitic relationship. What do others think about this concept?

 

[ksc]

Interesting. I'm just thinking about other pets like dogs that would eat much more live bacteria in the wild yet dry kibble is just fine if not better

Many people feed their dogs biologically appropriate raw food (BARF). Most kibble is junk. I fed my dog a raw food diet which included plenty of fresh fish, just like those huskies that compete in the Iditarod.

If you want to decrease your vet bills, feed carnivores raw meat....

 

[mcarroll]

Interesting. I'm just thinking about other pets like dogs that would eat much more live bacteria in the wild yet dry kibble is just fine if not better

Oops....didn't think this posted and I just made a virtual repeat below.

Not so. A dog will forage greens as well as its own fermented p**p. They won't go without.

 

[jeremy.gosnell]

Who says live bacteria in food helps the fish immune system? Most threads about ich are with tangs and in the wild all they consume is algae.

I don't think the probiotics are indicated in directly strengthening a fish's immune system. I have noticed in marine aquaria that the lines on "boosting the immune system" often get crossed. For example LRS' line of frozen foods is supplemented with live probiotic cultures. The flash freezing process makes them dormant, but does not kill them. These bacteria don't directly boost a fish's immune system, but they can aid the digestive system in achieving and maintaining beneficial flora balance which in turn aids in digestion. This can ensure that our fish are assimilating the nutrition within foods correctly and aren't suffering from digestive upset caused by stress, shipping and handling, etc. It's much the same as when humans experience gastrointestinal upset and use a probiotic to balance intestinal flora and overcome the upset. Probiotics are particularly useful at periods of stress or when eating a less than fully nutritious diet (nutritious in the manner of providing adequate pre and probiotics). They are also very useful when antibiotics are being used to treat infection and killing off beneficial gut bacteria along with harmful bacteria.

Prebiotics are food items which probiotic bacteria can break down and use as a food source. This could be shell, algae, certain tissue, etc. A good frozen food naturally has a mixture of prebiotics, and the supplementation of probiotic can be passed along into the fish's gut.

 

[jeremy.gosnell]

Not so. A dog will forage greens as well as its own fermented p**p. They won't go without.

This is correct. We often think of dogs as carnivores when they are in fact omnivores. That is what confuses me about the "grain-free" phenomenon in dog food advertising. As an omnivore, grain may not be an inappropriate addition to dog food. Dogs will often forage on grass, especially if their stomach is upset. It has two uses for dogs: one, the grass can help clear their colon of waste that is causing stomach upset and two, grass may act as a prebiotic for intestinal good bacteria which aids in digestion. Left to their own devices, dogs eat a little bit of everything. This is why frozen or fresh vegetables are praised by many veterinarians as a great treat for dogs. My Siberian Husky loves fresh carrots.

I too feed a RAW BARF diet to my dogs. I used to make it myself, but started using Darwin's Natural Pet food, simply because it saves a lot of time and mess. This food includes red meats such beef, lamb, veal and stuff like duck, chicken and turkey. It also has a mixture of leafy greens, fruits and other vegetables. It's naturally full of bacteria from both the raw meat, with the greens acting as prebiotics for bacteria within the other food stuff and dog's digestive system. Many people are under the impression that dogs will get diarrhea or sick from RAW diets. A properly prepared RAW diet is actually much easier for a dog to digest than an over-processed, dense commercial dog food. Sorry for veering off-topic.

 

[Paul B]

So I wanted to throw out a concept, by no means am I a biologist or medical professional. Humans and other mammals can develop communities to bacteria and viruses and if re-infected, the anti-bodies will defeat the invaders and prevent the ailment. But I have been bitten by mosquitoes and ticks thousands of times and will continue to forever. I don't think it is possible for any animal to develop a biological resistance to more complex organisms in a parasitic relationship. What do others think about this concept?

You are bitten by mosquitoes because you are not a fish which is covered in slime. Slime that is an integral part of the fishes immune system with antibacterial and antiparasitic properties.
You also can become immune from malaria which is transmitted by mosquitoes as well as a variety of other diseases. If the people living in South East Asia were not immune or at least partially immune, there would be no people in South East Asia. I lived in the Jungle in Viet Nam for a year and was bitten multiple times every day, but I took antimalaria drugs every day. (twice on Mondays) I was also bitten by a rat, ticks a monkey and a lizzard. The local people, and the people we were fighting had no drugs and they looked mighty healthy to me even though they were born there and were bitten probably every 15 minutes.

 

[shoelaceike]

I definitely agree on probiotics helping digestion and that in turn can reduce stress which will keep the immune system strong. I was just wondering where it can directly help the immune system.

Paul B - do fish have slime protecting the inside of thier gills?

 

[Paul B]

Yes they do and down their throat. Their gills are the most important because those spots you see on the sides of the fish aren't hurting it much because a fish is covered in scales. The parasites can't get through the scales, you can barely put an ice pick through a fish scale. The parasites in the gills are what kills the fish, and it's not even because of the blood they are sucking, it is the fact that so many parasites cover the gills that the fish can't breathe.
I like to prove everything I say, so here is the monkey that bit me. Her name was Judy. Vicious little devil and she would drink what was left in beer cans, get drunk and go nuts before she fell asleep. Not something you want in your house.

Fish slime, read this http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/

 

[bios]

@Paul B what you say is correct the way you say no..
The problem is that frozen foods and pellets and imtegrators have an high levels of heavy metals
And those inhibits immunosystems and reproduction

What you do feeding live food probably have the results of low levels of heavy metals in your tank

 

[Paul B]

I don't know about the metals in my tank but it has been running since 1971.
Would this be considered metal?

 

[mcarroll]

Interesting. I'm just thinking about other pets like dogs that would eat much more live bacteria in the wild yet dry kibble is just fine if not better

Don't buy into the idea of bagged food too hard. It's convenient, they do add some vitamins - let's just leave it at that.

Most animals eat smarter than most people because they aren't so distracted. (You may not be most people and you may not have most dogs, so YMMV.)

Dogs will forage in a back yard or on a walk for fresh greens (which are probiotic) as well as forage their own fermented stools. Gross to you and me, but definitely probiotic...and nutritious. (It's good to keep in mind that your dog is doing this out of necessity when they do it...dunno how normal it is for wild dogs or hyenas on a normal diet to eat like that.) (It's also good to keep in mind that a dog's digestive system is awesome....yours is weak. Don't go foraging your own stools! )

Fish and people both have their equivalents of greens and fermented foods that we should be eating, but we usually use processed food instead....for both of us. We should take a hint from our dogs.

 

[bios]

Want to introduce a Great White in my tank
And feed it with Live food
For immunotherapy sure

 

[kevindo123]

I agree to fish slime being key to a fish health and resistance to infection and external pathogen. I guess feeding the fish with good quality food is key to fish continue success to develop its immune system. Like us, if you introduce a new pathogen, the fish will get sick. We should still QT to make sure fish is heathy before introduction to DT.

 

[mcarroll]

I don't think the probiotics are indicated in directly strengthening a fish's immune system.

I haven't talked about it here I don't think, but I'm pretty sure there are links between gut bacteria and the immune system. The realm of lactic acid bacteria and their associates seems to be the commonality and anchor. I need to get my reading organized on that front tho...can't cite anything off the cuff.

We often think of dogs as carnivores when they are in fact omnivores.

The dog is the omnivore's omnivore! Amazing.

As an omnivore, grain may not be an inappropriate addition to dog food.

Seeds aren't appropriate food for many organisms due to their biology....lots of anti-nutrients, etc that protect the seed from all sorts of biotic forces while it waits to sprout. They do no good in, and potentially even harm, the digestive tract of a frementer such as humans, dogs and fish...nor even a dedicated herbivore like a cow. There are dedicated seed-eaters, of course...but you don't hear about them so much. "Pests" they're called.

Grain is an attractive [ human | cow | fish | dog | cat ] feed only because we have Sears Tower-sized mountains of it that we need to find uses for. (Leave it to industry...)

If you've run into the concept of "sprouted grains" or "soaked grains", the idea is dealing with that inherent indigestability. Once the seeds sprout (soaked is just pre-sprouting...no roots) all manner of biological processes kick off to break down and use up those anti-nutrients, etc. The seed is then edible AND digestable....probably to dogs too.

When I bake bread, I grind the wheat seeds (they're called berries, actually) fresh and then divide and soak the flour in two parts – one half yeasted and one half with a lactic-acid bacteria culture (yogurt, buttermilk, sour cream, etc) for no less than 18 hours. Mmm. Bread. More tender than Wonderbread, yet 100% fresh whole wheat. (Don't leave it to industry.)

Corn actually needs further treatment called "nixtmilization" to free up niacin to be digestable. That essentially means soaked in kalkwasser. Other seeds can just be soaked in water.

There are some exceptions like chia seeds where the plant has been bred over a long period of time so that there are significantly less anti-nutrients that they're edible raw.

 

[ksc]

Most scientific literature classifies a dog as a carnivore that can adapt to an omnivores diet. I'm sure Purina has a few "Dr's" that would call an animal classified as members of the family Canidae and the order Carnivora. an omnivore.....

 

[kevindo123]

This is a fish forum not for dog. Can we quit discussing about dogs.

 

[mcarroll]

This is a review article, but seems to be loaded with some basic goodies.
Role of a novel pattern recognition receptor in antibacterial innate immunity
(Don't let that opaque title stop you from clicking!)

Teleosts are a relevant and evolutionarily appropriate model for studying innate immunology. The evolution of fish and tetrapods (humans, dogs, et al...."lobes" rather than "fins") diverged hundreds of millions of years ago. Teleosts can be used as a model to investigate the evolution of lymphoid tissue and the development of the immune system. Teleosts have a less developed immune system than mammals. The adaptive immune system is more limited in fish than mammals. Teleosts have a limited antibody repertoire and slow lymphocyte maturation. Thus the innate immune response is the primary mechanism of defense. Fish also lack specialized lymphoid organs such as lymph nodes and bone marrow. Teleosts have adapted to the use of more primitive methods of immune defense. An important reason to study teleost immunology is to better understand the innate immune system in the absence of highly developed adaptive immunity. Fish, especially zebrafish, can be used as a model of vertebrate immunology.

Nonspecific cytotoxic cells (NCC) were first isolated from channel catfish. NCC are the teleost equivalent of natural killer (NK) cells in mammals and play an important role in innate immunity.
...

Most scientific literature classifies a dog as a carnivore that can adapt to an omnivores diet. I'm sure Purina has a few "Dr's" that would call an animal classified as members of the family Canidae and the order Carnivora. an omnivore.....

I don't really know how they really pick the labels, but I will say that it seems like most scientific classification systems I'm coming into contact with are in a state of heavy flux...and those labels are really just useful generalizations. Again without saying anyone is wrong, I'd guess dogs would be omnivores with some specializations for carrion.

 

[mcarroll]

This is a fish forum not for dog. Can we quit discussing about dogs.

I agree.

But it's true that there are going to be lots of overlaps in this conversation with most other interesting vertebrates....we all have this mostly in common.

 

[mcarroll]

We should still QT to make sure fish is heathy before introduction to DT.

If you do it with the health of their immune system in mind, I think this is eminently possible.

 

[omykiss001]

You are bitten by mosquitoes because you are not a fish which is covered in slime. Slime that is an integral part of the fishes immune system with antibacterial and antiparasitic properties.
You also can become immune from malaria which is transmitted by mosquitoes as well as a variety of other diseases. If the people living in South East Asia were not immune or at least partially immune, there would be no people in South East Asia. I lived in the Jungle in Viet Nam for a year and was bitten multiple times every day, but I took antimalaria drugs every day. (twice on Mondays) I was also bitten by a rat, ticks a monkey and a lizzard. The local people, and the people we were fighting had no drugs and they looked mighty healthy to me even though they were born there and were bitten probably every 15 minutes.

Meaning no offence here but you might want to consider the statements on malaria and immunity as it really does not match the facts in the real world. People are not immune or partially immune until they have contracted the disease and recover from it. How severe the disease presents in each individual varies due to genetics, the strain of malaria (some are much more virulent) and individual health at the time of infection, which is why some are very sick and recover, other barley know they've had it and some outright die from the disease. Yes, you are correct you don't see many adults suffering from it as most of them have battled the disease 1st hand as children and if they did not die they gain some degree of immunity to the local stains of plasmodium, but not to all strains around the world. I've listed the WHO statistics below. Almost half a million people died in 2015 from Malaria around the world, somewhere around 200 million people were infected.

I think you might be confusing a immune system capable of fighting infection with immunity. An individual becomes immune only after being infected and not dying, they are not born immune and only gain immunity by being infected by plasmodium and recovering. This is what vaccines are for they circumvent the need to suffer the disease to gain the immunity, unfortunately a vaccine for malaria has been thus far elusive to manufacture and why we still use the malaria drugs similar to what they had you take back then. These are the facts as of 2015, the rates of morbidity and mortality were much higher in the 60's when drugs, and methods of vector control were non-existent especially in 3rd world countries.

http://www.who.int/features/factfiles/malaria/en/

WHO stats:
About 3.2 billion people – nearly half of the world's population – are at risk of malaria. In 2015, there were roughly 214 million malaria cases and an estimated 438 000 malaria deaths
Most deaths occur among children living in Africa where a child dies every minute from malaria. Malaria mortality rates among children in Africa have been reduced by an estimated 54% since 2000.