A discussion on immunity

[mcarroll]

That's a huge jump in logic

My "jumps in logic" – or however you want to keep characterizing these things (??) – are based on reading. Not just reading about fish, and not just hobby sources. And they tend to line up well with real world experiences – of my own, as well as others.

After our collecively repeating the same unfortunate behavior in fishkeeping for 20-30-40-50 years now, which has always included QT and treatments, isn't it time for a few "jumps" anyway? (Yes.)

Whatever the case....I'm just saying it makes sense, not citing any studies. When organisms follow different exposure regimes they develop different immune systems. Different resistances.

How about you're making a huge jump in logic to assume what I do and don't know as background and we just keep the conversation moving forward.

The captive bred fish are less hardy simply because they aren't culled nearly as rigorously as 'mother nature'.

This appears to be an actual huge jump in logic.

I would be willing to bet a gallon of RODI water that it's nowhere near that simple.

And I didn't claim one was more hardy.

I guess I didn't say it outright: They were infecting each other.

When we stopped mixing them, they stopped infecting each other.

 

[Paul B]

Larry, nice to see you and thank you for that information. Blue tangs kept in copper for 30 days is fine IMO as long as it is not 72 days which I feel is too long. I think I even mentioned that in my book.
Also the thing about commercially available foods not having bacteria, I realize that but that is also the reason I don't feed commercially available food exclusively. I use your food almost every day "but" remember, and I spoke to you about this, I supplement it with live worms and usually clams. The clams I buy alive and freeze them, but not to the extent that you have to so their gut bacteria is still viable.
IMO and in all the links I posted, fish need an influx of living bacteria and parasites to stay immune to them forever. I will say it again. If we, or a fish, or an emu or a duck billed platypus is kept in isolation and is fed sterile foods and kept away from diseases "it will not have a functioning immune system". For some reason this concept is not sinking in. We get shots for measles, chicken pox, polio, tetanus etc. so that our immune system recognizes those things and kills those pathogens as soon as they try to infect the host. Then we get booster shots, Do we not? Why do we do that? I am sure everyone knows.
We can of course live in a bubble and never travel or shake anyone's hand or kiss a Supermodel, but we will "always" be at risk of contracting one of those things and croaking. Always.
It is the live bacteria and parasites that keep fish immune.

I have the proof. I can put any fish in my tank with any disease and it will be fine, better than fine, it may do the macarana. The parasites will just strengthen my fishes immune system.
Can you take water from the sea, add living things from the sea, add bacteria from the sea, add parasite laden fish, to a quarantined tank? Why not? Because those fish have no functioning immune system.
Everybody who has older, spawning fish than I have, that have "never been quarantined or sick," raise your hand......Higher. OK maybe one guy.
Everybody who has never posted on a disease thread in 40 years, raise your hand.
I don't understand why the concept of gut bacteria is so elusive. Just look at the disease forum on here. Quarantined or not there are too many sick fish. The only thing I do differently than most people is feed some live food. How hard is that?
Larry's food is very good and I do use it almost daily. But Larry, to stay in business and put out a quality product must deep freeze his food. That is fine, but I supplement it because my tank is natural and natural fish need natural, live bacteria to keep up their immune system. If Larry had live parasites in his food and you fed it to a tank of quarantined fish, they would become infected and you would be looking for Larry. :mad:
I really hope no one puts up that stupid Ich life cycle chart.
I am going to a LFS now to buy a fish. If I do, I will acclimate it for a few minutes, then throw it in my tank where he will most likely meet his new friends and maybe date some of them. He will be fine and live 10 or 20 years. I won't, but he will.
I have this one bottle of copper. It was made in Brooklyn probably in the 60s. I keep it in case I get some kind of fish for free that is covered in parasites and is receiving last rites. If I get it soon enough I will cure it and give it away or put it in my tank. I have no Prizapro, antibiotics, Geritol, de wormer, bug killer or anything else as I never need it. Those things are for fish with no immunity.

 

[Paul B]

I think I am starting to grow hair after all that.

We also have to remember that the natural state of a fish is pregnant. All female fish in the sea are pregnant or just laid eggs. Healthy fish develop eggs even if there is no good looking male around so if you have fish and they are not pregnant, there is a problem.
Maybe not so much with fish like tangs and angels as I am sure they are mad at us for keeping them in a tank so they may not fill with eggs because they "know" the tank is to small for them to lay eggs, but all damsels, pipefish, seahorses, gobies, cardinals, wrasses and just about all bottom fish should be pregnant.
I am not sure if there is a coloration between quarantined fish and non quarantined fish in their ability to become pregnant but I do know that virtually all my fish are pregnant and all the paired fish spawn all the time. Over the years I have posted numerous pictures of my fish spawning. Spawning is the premium test of a fishes health.
If you quarantine everything, it doesn't matter if the fish are in great condition or not because you are not going to let them be exposed to anything natural from the sea so hopefully, they will not get sick.
But I want all my fish immune from everything as I want myself to be and I want them spawning. I think I am finished spawning for now.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I think I am starting to grow hair after all that.

I just hope it's on your head.

I do wonder, and I'm sure the food industry has tested this, how much bacteria and other "pathogens" and "pests" make it through the freezing process.

Jus sayin, I've never bought live mysis, but I have them in the tank. where does cyano come from in the mid west. and hair algae.

 

[bios]

Paul..
Sometime you are confused on acquired immunity and innate immunity lol

 

[jenreefer]

This, I agree with.



OK, I don't really know, I think it's kind of semantics but I may be wrong. I "assume" that a new born fish must have some sort of immunity from parasites or there would be no fish. Just an assumption on my part being the oceans are more full of parasites, then they are of fish. (another assumption on my part)
I do know that there are antibodies in a fishes blood, so I would "assume" those antibodies would be passed on to it's offspring's blood. I did find it once and I will look for it again. Even if I find it written that doesn't mean it is true.
I do know that in my, parasite laden tank fish have spawned and grew to adulthood many times. I asked if anyone had fish spawn in a fully quarantined tank and if the babies grew into adulthood. I am not sure that would prove anything but it would be interesting to know.

I found this interesting in one of those links you posted Ed
Quote:
Erythrocytes and macrophages are the first blood cells to be identified in zebrafish embryos

My clownfish just spawned in QT. I will keep you posted on the results.

 

[Paul B]

Paul..
Sometime you are confused on acquired immunity and innate immunity lol

Bios, I am confused by a lot more than that.

My clownfish just spawned in QT. I will keep you posted on the results.

And that is exactly what they are supposed to do. If those clowns are new and you just got them, they were in the sea 2 weeks ago and are in great shape (and pregnant) as all fish are in the sea, unless they were in a tourist resort and people were constantly taking pictures of them and stepping on them.
Good job and I hope they live a happy and healthy life.

 

[ReefFrenzy]

Paul, one thing I wanted to clarify so people don't become confused is the difference between parasites and bacteria in frozen food. We DO know from testing that bacteria goes dormant in the freezer, but it does not die, just as strains of bacteria survive the ice age. In the matter of parasites we are intentionally freezing the food to a temperature to eradicate any parasites. However in our case we take it a step further by maintaining that the ingredients we use would not harbor a parasite such as "crypto" because the fin fish from Canada are harvested from waters where that parasite cannot reproduce due to the cold water temps. We also do not add any gills or skin from fish to our foods, but I'm getting off topic. Getting back to the bacteria, when we add active cultures of probiotic bacteria to a frozen food they remain viable so when the food is thawed we can test for CFU or "Colony Forming Units" of active bacteria per gram of food. These tests are done after the food is thawed at room temperature for 10 minutes. There is a lot of work being done in this area by many researchers dosing water and food with different strains of bacteria. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blo...ncrease-growth-and-health-of-larval-clownfish

Sorry if I'm a little brief but this is the last shipping day before Christmas and I'm answering when I can.

 

[mcarroll]

Paul..
Sometime you are confused on acquired immunity and innate immunity lol

Some folks seem to think they are distinct and unrelated.

 

[Brew12]

We DO know from testing that bacteria goes dormant in the freezer, but it does not die, just as strains of bacteria survive the ice age.

Oh.. I know better to jump in but but but....

What we know is that freezing doesn't kill ALL bacteria. Depending on the condition of the bacteria it is possible that freezing will kill a fair amount of it as the formation of ice can damage the bacterial cell walls. It is the surviving bacteria that begin reproducing once they are thawed.
I bring this up only to avoid confusion by people who may read this and apply it to a different situation. If you freeze Dr Tims One and Only or Biospira, odds are you will kill enough bacteria to make the product not work as advertised. Some bacteria will survive to seed your tank, but not nearly enough to perform as expected. Products like Vibrant (bacteria are flash frozen) and Stability (uses bacteria spores) can handle being frozen just fine.

Going to try my best not to comment on the whole immunity issue because I see great points by both sides. My judgement may not be as good later tonight if I consume adult beverages.

 

[bios]

HI Mc
For sure we are able to sneeze and produce mucus since we born....
For sure we inherit an immunitary memory from our mum that we forgot during time to create our new one

 

[jenreefer]

Bios, I am confused by a lot more than that.



And that is exactly what they are supposed to do. If those clowns are new and you just got them, they were in the sea 2 weeks ago and are in great shape (and pregnant) as all fish are in the sea, unless they were in a tourist resort and people were constantly taking pictures of them and stepping on them.
Good job and I hope they live a happy and healthy life.

I have had them 8 months. Both ORA not wild. Had to move all fish after velvet outbreak in Dt. I have had them since babies.

 

[Brew12]

AGGGHHH!!! I can't help myself!!!!! :mad: I'm such a fool!!!!!

Please stop trying to compare the human immune system to that of fish... there is little direct correlation for the following reason.

"Whereas in mammals phagocytosis is carried out by mononuclear cells and neutrophils, teleost fish demonstrate a marked morphological heterogeneity of leukocytes, especially granulocytes. Monocytes/macrophages and acidophilic granulocytes are the primary phagocytic cells of fish (Rowley and others 1988; Esteban and Meseguer 1994), and the latter may be functionally equivalent to the neutrophils of higher vertebrates, as indicated by morphological and cytochemical features (Lopez-Ruiz and others 1992; Meseguer and others 1994). Recent evidence has also demonstrated that B-cells play an important role in fish phagocytosis. In this mechanism, antigen–antibody complexes with bound complement component, C3d, bind both the B-cell receptor and complement receptor type 2 (CR2) on B-cells, leading to a lowered threshold for B-cell activation (Sunyer and others 2005; Boshra and others 2006). 11-KT and E2 modulate intracellular accumulation of IL-1β in acidophilic granulocytes of the gilthead seabream only upon activation by immunologic stimuli, such as LPS or Vibrio DNA (Chaves-Pozo and others 2005a). Without stimulation, this immune response does not occur. 11-KT and E2 also regulate the respiratory-burst activity of seabream acidophilic granulocytes from the head kidney (Chaves-Pozo and others 2005b). Thus, it is believed that sex hormone-regulated release of IL-1β from acidophilic granulocytes is involved in modifying gonadal function in the seabream. Further, Chaves-Pozo and colleagues (2005c) demonstrated that the acidophilic granulocytes are involved in reorganization of the germinal compartment of the testes in this species."

As found from
http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/content/46/6/1060.full

 

[Brew12]

AGGGHHH!!! I can't help myself!!!!! :mad: I'm such a fool!!!!!

Please stop trying to compare the human immune system to that of fish... there is little direct correlation for the following reason.

"Whereas in mammals phagocytosis is carried out by mononuclear cells and neutrophils, teleost fish demonstrate a marked morphological heterogeneity of leukocytes, especially granulocytes. Monocytes/macrophages and acidophilic granulocytes are the primary phagocytic cells of fish (Rowley and others 1988; Esteban and Meseguer 1994), and the latter may be functionally equivalent to the neutrophils of higher vertebrates, as indicated by morphological and cytochemical features (Lopez-Ruiz and others 1992; Meseguer and others 1994). Recent evidence has also demonstrated that B-cells play an important role in fish phagocytosis. In this mechanism, antigen–antibody complexes with bound complement component, C3d, bind both the B-cell receptor and complement receptor type 2 (CR2) on B-cells, leading to a lowered threshold for B-cell activation (Sunyer and others 2005; Boshra and others 2006). 11-KT and E2 modulate intracellular accumulation of IL-1β in acidophilic granulocytes of the gilthead seabream only upon activation by immunologic stimuli, such as LPS or Vibrio DNA (Chaves-Pozo and others 2005a). Without stimulation, this immune response does not occur. 11-KT and E2 also regulate the respiratory-burst activity of seabream acidophilic granulocytes from the head kidney (Chaves-Pozo and others 2005b). Thus, it is believed that sex hormone-regulated release of IL-1β from acidophilic granulocytes is involved in modifying gonadal function in the seabream. Further, Chaves-Pozo and colleagues (2005c) demonstrated that the acidophilic granulocytes are involved in reorganization of the germinal compartment of the testes in this species."

As found from
http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/content/46/6/1060.full

 

[ReefFrenzy]

Oh.. I know better to jump in but but but....

What we know is that freezing doesn't kill ALL bacteria. Depending on the condition of the bacteria it is possible that freezing will kill a fair amount of it as the formation of ice can damage the bacterial cell walls. It is the surviving bacteria that begin reproducing once they are thawed.
I bring this up only to avoid confusion by people who may read this and apply it to a different situation. If you freeze Dr Tims One and Only or Biospira, odds are you will kill enough bacteria to make the product not work as advertised. Some bacteria will survive to seed your tank, but not nearly enough to perform as expected. Products like Vibrant (bacteria are flash frozen) and Stability (uses bacteria spores) can handle being frozen just fine.

Going to try my best not to comment on the whole immunity issue because I see great points by both sides. My judgement may not be as good later tonight if I consume adult beverages.

I cannot disagree with anything stated here and I appreciate the clarification. It was for this reason we had many batches tested in 2012 to see what amount of bacteria needed to be added to maintain adequate amounts after a freeze/thaw. Thanks!

 

[Brew12]

I cannot disagree with anything stated here and I appreciate the clarification. It was for this reason we had many batches tested in 2012 to see what amount of bacteria needed to be added to maintain adequate amounts after a freeze/thaw. Thanks!

Whew! I was worried you would be upset and stop selling me your product! My fish would have been sad!

 

[ReefFrenzy]

Whew! I was worried you would be upset and stop selling me your product! My fish would have been sad!

Nope. I'm pretty sure our transparency has always been a hallmark of our brand and I appreciate the free flow of information. You just had a much better way of explaining more details about the subject.

 

[mcarroll]

...and a healthy secondary response cannot be formed without a healthy innate system in place.

I think it's no coincidence that food and immunity seem to go hand it hand....one of those sources above stated as much, that that may have been the origin of the secondary response – eating, as we know it.

Please stop trying to compare the human immune system to that of fish... there is little direct correlation for the following reason.

The comparisons seem mostly direct and the differences so far have been fairly expected.

I admit I don't understand enough of the quote to see why one system can't be compared with the other as a model.

(The Scientists I'm reading/citing seem to do it.)

 

[mcarroll]

The "Ontogeny..." article seems to be entirely phrased in terms like "the vertebrate immune system".

This seems suggestive of comparison rather than limiting or narrowing in scope.

 

[mcarroll]

Appreciative of the discussion, but tiring of the negative feedback.......why does this seem to be the one area of the hobby where everyone gets all "can't can't can't" minded?

How about posting what's correct to make the point that needs to be made (how to keep healthy, resistant fish) rather that focusing so hard on tearing down other posts???

I'm not naming anyone here because there's at least a half dozen that would be on the list.

I am not an expert in any of this, so if you can do better research, then do it. But try to keep it constructive.

As a bonus, maybe share how you do your research better too.

You know this hobby was invented on my birthday in 1852. Great story. Will do a blog post soon enough on it.

But the sad fact is that they were not too far behind us in their success levels and that was over 150 years ago.

So.....constructive. We're not getting anywhere with the current course of things.