Paul
Again it feels like you use the word immune and healthy as the same thing and interchangeable.
Do you think
A - Introducing known pathogens to tanks is ideal to promote overall true adapative immunity to your fish. And that is the main reason your tank is healthier. If you don't do this your fish can't be as healthy/immune as possible.
Or
B - Your tank has an overall superior health from all the little nuances you do. I'd argue nutrition. Because of that superior overall health you simply don't worry about adding any pathogens. Which is what you refer to as immune.
The end result is the same but fundamentally very different views.
My view with my known ich carrier added to my tank was that in the grand scheme of pathogens of fish I'd say Ich is lower in severity. So a calculated risk of seeing a fish torn up from fighting and a few spots of Ich isn't too scary. I saw it chow down at the store on flakes so took a chance that all my other healthy fish would be able to fight off a low pathogen burden from this obvious damaged fish. They eat a varied diet. Time will tell if that works...yes I understand it could of carried other pathogens and some will call me an idiot. I won't do this again for at least 6 months or a year. Not on a regular basis. But that fish was not added to purposefully boast the adaptive immunity of my other fish.
Alan, yes I know I use Immune and Healthy as the same thing and I believe that. A fish in the sea is considered healthy because it lives out it's life, spawns and dies probably by getting eaten by something. They only die of old age in a tank. But a fish is composed of 3 systems, there's growth, reproduction, and
Immunity. Immunity is an integral part of a healthy fish and the part that uses the most calories (in a male fish anyway)
Immunity involves producing antibodies and antiparisitic substances which are constantly replaced because they are in the slime which is water based and always in the process of sloughing off. That is one way the fish removes parasites. If you remove the immunity of a fish by keeping it away from pathogens, that fish is not complete as a large part of it's physiology is missing. Of course the fish can function but one third of it's systems no longer function. It's exactly like a cancer patient who had his immune system completely irradiated to kill his white blood cells in the hope of killing the cancer. Is that person, in that condition very healthy or is his health compromised?
He can of course leave the hospital in that condition and wear a mask in public, take antibodies every day or live in a bubble, but a human has the opportunity to re build his immunity gradually through his food and just the fact that he goes outside and is exposed to pathogens in the hope that eventually his immune system will build itself up and he will be cancer free.
A fish that has been quarantined for 72 days and kept away from pathogens has a very weak, if any immune system. Then he is put in a tank with no pathogens for the rest of his life so he has no opportunity to rebuild his immunity. Is that fish very healthy? I don't know for sure but I would think a fish with all his systems functioning correctly would be healthier.
I think the answer to your question is B. I don't go out to find sick fish to put in my tank to enhance their immunity. I believe the parasites are living and reproducing in my tank just as they do in the sea. They can't multiply to fast because they have a hard time holding on to a fish long enough to go through their cycle.
Very rarely, when I have a fish dying, normally of old age. (And I did post about such a fish not long ago) I may see a few parasites on it. That is because as a fish dies, it's immunity fades until the fish is dead.
I also occasionally see one of two parasites on a new fish. That parasite may have come from the store or it may be one of the parasites living in my tank. I never think anything of it because in a day, that spot if gone. Yes, always.
My fish are healthy and spawning due to the "Live bacteria" in their food that they get at every meal. They also get commercial food with added pro-biotics, but pro-biotics would only be good bacteria that are helpful for fish digestion and maybe some other things but I feel they will not do much to enhance the fishes immune system because a fish needs harmful bacteria and parasites for that.
I really don't know why I get so much flack for having immune fish. What's so bad about having fish that always spawn and never get sick. Fish that I can buy and throw in my tank. Is that a bad thing?
All I do is feed a little different and don't quarantine so I think my method is a lot easier and maybe cheaper as I use some food from a fish market which is very cheap.
I also have no need for medications or a hospital tank. People argue with me like I am doing something bad as if I were killing my fish, and the fact is, I "may" have some of the oldest fish on here and virtually none of them ever died of a disease.
(I didn't mean to make all thar red and I don't know how it happened)
Part of the link that Brew posted:
Quote:
2.3). The 12 fish were divided into three groups and held under non-stressful
hyposaline conditions without further exposure to
C.irritans for either 1.5 months (5
fish), 3 months (5 fish), or. 6 months (2 fish). At the appropriate time, fish were
individually challenged with 5,000 theronts, along with weight matched control mullet
previously unexposed to
C.irritans. Numbers of trophonts released were recorded for
each fish (Table 15), the degree of immune protection being indicated by the numbers
sustained following challenge as compared with that from the paired control. All 12
experimental fish exhibited significant immune protection to challenge. Very low
parasite levels (%PEI S 0.'2%), indicating a high. degree of sustained immune
protection, were observed in fish held for up to 3 months, with full protection being
165
