A discussion on immunity

[Paul B]

Tangs with velvet have been put into my tank many times. I don't like tangs and find them boreing so I don't have any. But for most of the life of the tank, I had tangs. The only tang I like is a hippo.

 

[mcarroll]

I don't like tangs and find them boreing

There's a point of view you don't see often! (I like!)

Can I get a short list of your favorites? Or a top two?

 

[Paul B]

As I said, I had tangs so many years that I think they are boring. I go for more interesting fish like pipefish. shrimpfish, dragonettes, clingfish, bangai's, weird wrasses and gobies. Things you don't see every day. If you dive, the most prevalent fish are tangs. I also don't like angelfish for the same reason. I find these fish much more interesting

 

[mcarroll]

So I found out a couple of cool immunity things, plus a bonus, tonight:

1) Fish that get immunity from a prior infection are known as "convalescent carriers".

2) Velvet is not automatically lethal thanks to "histone-like proteins."

BONUS) Scientists have figured out how to measure levels of HLP's as a stress indicator.

Carriers
I haven't found too much on fish so far (still looking), but fish are a lot like people in this matter, so I found this:

http://health.mo.gov/training/epi/Mod2StudentOutline.pdf

Convalescent carriers are people who continue to be infectious during and even after their recovery from illness. This happens with many diseases. Example: Salmonella patients may excrete the bacteria in feces for several weeks, and rarely even for a year or more. This is most common in infants and young children. Treatment with inappropriate antibiotics may prolong the convalescent carrier phase.

Inappropriate treatments can prolong the carrier phase.

Without more some form of positive ID of the targeted pathogen, it seems like most of the treatments we perform on fish are inappropriate treatments.

Why do algae control nuts spend more time behind microscopes than fish nuts?

Velvet
"Histone-like protein: a novel method for measuring stress in fish"
http://www.int-res.com/abstracts/dao/v44/n2/p97-107/

"HLP-1" is a histone like protein generated by fish that is a powerful antibiotic that can control Velvet.

Look what happens to HLP-1 when fish are stressed:

Healthy unstressed fish had consistently high HLP-1 levels, but fish that had been stressed for 1 wk had significantly depressed HLP-1 levels; HLP-1 levels declined further in fish stressed for 3 or 4 wk. The time-dependent decline in HLP-1 levels was not accompanied by any gross signs of disease. In contrast to HLP-1 levels, antibacterial activity in the skin was significantly greater in fish stressed for 1 wk compared with unstressed fish; in addition, antibacterial activity was the same in fish that were unstressed or stressed for 3 or 4 wk. This suggests that other antibiotics besides HLP-1 may be induced in the skin, especially during early stages of stress, that may compensate for depressed HLP-1 levels.

Very interesting for the sick fish we encounter...

Even more interesting for the non-sick fish we want to quarantine "just in case".

After perhaps not even a week in QT there's a chance you've eliminated any resistance a fish might have had left from the wild or built up since then by impairing their HLP production through stress. Seems like elimination of resistance might be a near-certainty after just 2-3 weeks. What about those extended QT's people do?? And TTM's with all that catching and moving of the fish?

Coincidentally:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histone#Conservation_across_species

The unicellular algae known as dinoflagellates are the only eukaryotes that are known to completely lack histones.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Even more interesting for the non-sick fish we want to quarantine "just in case".

After perhaps not even a week in QT there's a chance you've eliminated any resistance a fish might have had left from the wild or built up since then by impairing their HLP production through stress. Seems like elimination of resistance might be a near-certainty after just 2-3 weeks. What about those extended QT's people do?? And TTM's with all that catching and moving of the fish?

Were is this from?

 

[mcarroll]

Were is this from?

The link that was a little bit before that quote:
http://www.int-res.com/abstracts/dao/v44/n2/p97-107/

Most of it's in the abstract.

But here's more:

Aquaculture is an intensive process in which fish are reared under very high stocking densities, such that the potential for catastrophic disease outbreaks poses a serious economic threat. Avoiding disease epidemics is one of the major goals of a successful aquaculture enterprise, and this typically involves the reduction of ‘stress’ in the population. The physiological and behavioral responses to stress are essentially adaptive in that they have evolved as a mechanism to allow the organism to attempt to maintain homeostasis under potentially harmful conditions. But, under conditions of chronic or severely acute stress, these responses may become deleterious to the health of the fish. Such conditions may often be found in intensive aquaculture operations in which fish are kept at high densities and are not capable of escaping the stressor(s) (Pickering 1981, Wedemeyer 1996).

What do you think?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

The link that was a little bit before that quote:
http://www.int-res.com/abstracts/dao/v44/n2/p97-107/

Most of it's in the abstract.

But here's more:


What do you think?

gonna chew on this. Seems like this is on your mind lately. Look up Robert here in r2r. Hes not been in for some time. He and humblefish had some great "talks" and robert had some interesting research and HUGE numbers of research papers cited. Like enough to make your eyes bleed. Interesting stuff.
messed up thing about science, it does seem to contradict its self. Because at this point as an observer and student, Paul B, Humble and Robert are all correct. They seemingly disagree in methodology,
but all three paths seem to lead north. so to speak.

 

[mcarroll]

gonna chew on this. Seems like this is on your mind lately. Look up Robert here in r2r. Hes not been in for some time. He and humblefish had some great "talks" and robert had some interesting research and HUGE numbers of research papers cited. Like enough to make your eyes bleed. Interesting stuff.
messed up thing about science, it does seem to contradict its self. Because at this point as an observer and student, Paul B, Humble and Robert are all correct. They seemingly disagree in methodology,
but all three paths seem to lead north. so to speak.

Agreed! Along with some others, @robert has been on my list for a while.

 

[Paul B]

How many years have I been saying that quaranting fish is one of the worst things you can do for them!

Hence all the disease threads.

 

[Paul B]

Ed, where did you find this?
"After perhaps not even a week in QT there's a chance you've eliminated any resistance a fish might have had left from the wild or built up since then by impairing their HLP production through stress. Seems like elimination of resistance might be a near-certainty after just 2-3 weeks. What about those extended QT's people do?? And TTM's with all that catching and moving of the fish?"

 

[mcarroll]

http://www.int-res.com/abstracts/dao/v44/n2/p97-107/

By way of scholar.google.com...

 

[Paul B]

OK cool, thanks

 

[Humblefish]

How many years have I been saying that quaranting fish is one of the worst things you can do for them!

Hence all the disease threads.

Most of the disease threads are from people with fish dying in their DT who did not QT.

 

[Paul B]

Those people had Sissy fish.

 

[mcarroll]

Most of the disease threads are from people with fish dying in their DT who did not QT.

I know what you mean. I think that was a reference to the volume of threads in general vs the threads all being failed QT's. At least that's how I read it - I could be wrong.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Most of the disease threads are from people with fish dying in their DT who did not QT.

Those people had Sissy fish.

I love you guys.

Now I really have no room to speak here amongst experienced fish folk. But it seems to me, our concept and and methodology of QT is in a sense wrong. As most dont really understand the difference between Hosp and qt any way like they think the cycle is what happens when you stir up the sand bed. Few do or ever will understand the the health needs of a fish, and most never read to the end of the page to really understand the point the writer was making.

In my tiny fearful fish newb mind. A qt should be a biologically established tank, but with all the same stress reducers of a normal tank. Plastic plants and rocks etc(folks forget those are tools not decor). BUT keep it very clean with a reverse undergravel filter, a non porus chemically inert substrate for meds if needed, and encourage the use of bioassay salt mixes or NSW(sorry mixing fresh Coral plus salt and plopping a fish in it cant be good ). Slow acclimation of the fish to the bacterial load of the DT by trading water over time.(oft over looked) Esp for lfs copper wall fish and fish with a reduced Immune system. Possibly a canister filter with an increased micron screen as a diatom filter is hard to come by, And GOOD FOOD!!!!

many with practice can do a standard qt or TTM but its clunky and as evidenced here, possibly wrong(im not saying) and easily done wrong in the new and med skilled average reefers home.

really the truth of the matter is most dont want another tank and if they do it, its bare bones(as recommended) and maybe not good for the fish. If its more widely understood that what your doing is de worming and vaccinating like you do a new dog or stray cat, many may be more open to it.

@Paul B Qt is needed because Petco is :mad:Bannana Bannana Bannana!!! :mad:! and @Humblefish current QT protocols and methods are constantly being called into question by science, Not just crazy don't immunize folks or drink milk kinda folks.

Your both right, it's why I value you both so much.

Where's the balance. Is there one.

 

[Humblefish]

I know what you mean. I think that was a reference to the volume of threads in general vs the threads all being failed QT's. At least that's how I read it - I could be wrong.

Sure, many fish die due to botched QT, but the upside is most people seem to get better at it every time they do it. How many corals get killed by noobs before they finally figure out all the ins & outs to successfully keeping them? Unfortunately, there is no substitute for experience and in this hobby livestock is gonna die until you figure out what you are doing wrong.

But at least by QT'ing you are saving your core stock of fish in the DT from an untimely demise. And as you sharpen your QT skills, more fish will successfully join them until you reach a point where you are "full up" in the DT. Many people I help later complain to me that they become bored with their DT because the fish never die and they have to keep looking at the same ones day after day. I guess that's a good "problem" to have; certainly better than the alternative.

In the end it's all about risk assessment... How much risk are you willing to take when it comes to your "core fish" in the DT? I take very little because those are my children, my babies. No harm shall come to them if I can help it, even if it means I lose a fish in QT to protect them.

 

[Humblefish]

@Paul B Qt is needed because Petco is :mad:Bannana Bannana Bannana!!! :mad:! and @Humblefish current QT protocols and methods are constantly being called into question by science

I think you have us reversed.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I think you have us reversed.

Yea I think it works both ways too.

but It still leads me to not buying a fish.

 

[Paul B]

Soon quarantining will be a thing of the past. It is coming as more studies suggest that bacteria and parasites are needed to keep fish immune and healthy. I maybe dead, but don't say I didn't tell you.
(read those links above)