A discussion on immunity

[laga77]

I know you say this all of the time but I wonder if you don't say it enough!

Doesn't matter. There are many out there on different forums that are in denial. They believe that NLS or North Fin, or Fauna Marin, ( or any other dry food manufacturer for that matter) are their best friends and would never sell them anything bad. They try other methods and if they do not see results in a month, they quit. These manufacturers even change the names of ingredients to confuse people. Just last week on another forum, I pointed out that the listed main ingredients on a filter feeder food were the scientific names for garlic and belladonna. The reply was, " I thought garlic was good for fish".

 

[Paul B]

Brew, the title of my book was picked by my Daughter. She is a writer, editor and is extremely smart. She also wrote the Foreword which IMO is the best part of the book.
Avant-garde
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The avant-garde (from French, "advance guard" or "vanguard", literally "fore-guard")[1] are people or works that are experimental, radical, or unorthodox,[1] with respect to art, culture, and society.[2][3][page needed] It may be characterized by nontraditional, aesthetic innovation and initial unacceptability,[4] and it may offer a critique of the relationship between producer and consumer.[2]

It is what it is. I purposely did not name the Book.
"The Ultimate Marine Fish Guide to Noobs who should follow everything I say"

Also, Unorthodox does not really define my methods. Unorthodox are the methods we now use as the original methods fell out of favor with the addition of the internet where unlimited theories are put forward with absolutely no fact checking or editing. Just rumors. For instance I run a reverse UG filter and besides a Sherpa in Tibet, just about no one else uses one. It is not unorthodox as that was the preferred aquarium filtration since Eisenhower was President. Everyone will say it can't work, and yet my tank functions very well and has lasted a very long time with virtually no problems.
The UG filter is not the problem, it is the way people try to use it that is the problem.
My theory of a natural tank with many of the elements and pathogens in the sea that fish naturally evolved with for millions of years is not the problem. The problem is how people try to implement that theory.
Many people tried undergravel filters and failed, therefore undergravel filters are bad. And yet, there is no system older.
Many people failed to quarantine and lost their fish, so foregoing quarantining is bad. And yet my fish are all spawning and living to their presumed lifespan never being sick. Why is that?
Are my theories to hard?
I don't really know as I am not that smart. Didn't even go to college. (there was that War thing)
I spend almost no time on my tank besides clean the glass. I have no dosers, no test kits, no medications, no controllers, no oxidators, no carbon, no bio pellets, no roaphos. And yet my tank thrives.
I do feed some worms along with clams, maybe some LRS food and sometimes frozen Mysis. Is that really hard?

 

[mcarroll]

Paul's initial post does recommend exposing fish to stuff like Ich and Velvet. And as I have said a few times, it works for Paul. It won't work for most.

I don't know if the post goes so far as to recommend Velvet. But that is a funny thought to ponder:

Step One:
Once your fish are in, add the whole bottle of Paul B's Vicious Velvet™ and Paul B's Crazy Crypto™...

Here's a couple of quotes I didn't make up from post #1....a bit from the beginning and a bit from the end of the post:

I think I found out the exact mechanism for the immunity. It's not so much that the food is live, but that the bacteria inside the guts of the food is also live.

My fish get some live food every day and always have. I even think that the fish infected with parasites that I add strengthn the immune system so they never become infected.

I see live food – especially including gut microbes – as the key being expressed.

The eating of whole critters is the other key factor not explicitly stated, but implied.

Live = whole. Whole-frozen can be OK too, if not irradiated/sterilized.

For example:

• Paul feeds clams.
• Feeding chunks of processed clam from a frozen food pack at the LFS would not be the same.
• It's just muscle-meat with the "goodies" removed. And it's likely to have been irradiated.
• De-veined shrimp have the same issues – all the goodies have been removed.

You just have to select the least-processed option you can find. Usually you will have plenty of options to pick from once you know what you're looking for.

That option may be something like LRS food at the LFS, it may be clams or shrimp at the seafood counter or frozen food aisle at the grocery. But it could also be from collecting bugs or worms outside or it could be a bait store or online breeder.

Try some of each!

While I'm on a tangent....check out Paul B's DIY brine shrimp hatchery and DIY brine shrimp feeder. This might be the most accessible live food of all since they tend to be available and culture of them is so simple.

 

[Brew12]

Brew, the title of my book was picked by my Daughter. She is a writer, editor and is extremely smart. She also wrote the Foreword which IMO is the best part of the book.
Avant-garde
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The avant-garde (from French, "advance guard" or "vanguard", literally "fore-guard")[1] are people or works that are experimental, radical, or unorthodox,[1] with respect to art, culture, and society.[2][3][page needed] It may be characterized by nontraditional, aesthetic innovation and initial unacceptability,[4] and it may offer a critique of the relationship between producer and consumer.[2]

It is what it is. I purposely did not name the Book.
"The Ultimate Marine Fish Guide to Noobs who should follow everything I say"

Also, Unorthodox does not really define my methods. Unorthodox are the methods we now use as the original methods fell out of favor with the addition of the internet where unlimited theories are put forward with absolutely no fact checking or editing. Just rumors. For instance I run a reverse UG filter and besides a Sherpa in Tibet, just about no one else uses one. It is not unorthodox as that was the preferred aquarium filtration since Eisenhower was President. Everyone will say it can't work, and yet my tank functions very well and has lasted a very long time with virtually no problems.
The UG filter is not the problem, it is the way people try to use it that is the problem.
My theory of a natural tank with many of the elements and pathogens in the sea that fish naturally evolved with for millions of years is not the problem. The problem is how people try to implement that theory.
Many people tried undergravel filters and failed, therefore undergravel filters are bad. And yet, there is no system older.
Many people failed to quarantine and lost their fish, so foregoing quarantining is bad. And yet my fish are all spawning and living to their presumed lifespan never being sick. Why is that?
Are my theories to hard?
I don't really know as I am not that smart. Didn't even go to college. (there was that War thing)
I spend almost no time on my tank besides clean the glass. I have no dosers, no test kits, no medications, no controllers, no oxidators, no carbon, no bio pellets, no roaphos. And yet my tank thrives.
I do feed some worms along with clams, maybe some LRS food and sometimes frozen Mysis. Is that really hard?

Wiring a house for electricity isn't hard. There is nothing fancy to it, doesn't require computer skills and can be done with the most basic of tools and equipment. Yet, most people would probably burn their house down if they had to wire it themselves. You can read a book on how to do it, but it takes experience to do it properly. Tricks of the Trade, right?
I think reefing is much the same way. It's not a complex hobby. I know I'm guilty of making it harder than it needs to be. Why? I lack the experience to know better.

There was a study done by Justin Kruger and David Dunning that explains why people with little knowledge tend to overestimate their abilities. As people become more knowledgeable and gain competancy, they get to the point where they underestimate their abilities.
http://psych.colorado.edu/~vanboven/teaching/p7536_heurbias/p7536_readings/kruger_dunning.pdf

I think you have gotten to the point where you underestimate your own abilities and don't see why it would be a challenge for someone else to follow your methods.

 

[laga77]

I am starting to think that it is the crap in the dry food that suppresses the immune system of the fish.

 

[mcarroll]

I love your work and find it absolutely amazing. I also understand it doesn't apply to me.

This dichotomy is nearly tragic. If there's a question of how it applies, then let it be the subject of a forum post or something. Totally understandable because it is a different approach – and one that's not quite totally defined since Paul B actually started off like the typical newbie, killing fish left and right.

He learned the hard way and sets an example – and he's here to answer questions!

If we can't even follow a good example while the instructor is present so-to-speak, then maybe lots of us have selected the wrong hobby.



That's a pretty dim view of things that I prefer not to hold, but maybe I'm in denial and things are worse in the hobby even than they seem.

 

[ReefFrenzy]

Live = whole. Whole-frozen can be OK too, if not irradiated/sterilized.

For example:

• Paul feeds clams.
• Feeding chunks of processed clam from a frozen food pack at the LFS would not be the same.
• It's just muscle-meat with the "goodies" removed. And it's likely to have been irradiated.
• De-veined shrimp have the same issues – all the goodies have been removed.

You just have to select the least-processed option you can find. Usually you will have plenty of options to pick from once you know what you're looking for.

That option may be something like LRS food at the LFS, it may be clams or shrimp at the seafood counter or frozen food aisle at the grocery. But it could also be from collecting bugs or worms outside or it could be a bait store or online breeder.

Try some of each!

What you mentioned is part of what I'm working on for the article. Freshness, whole ingredients, processing methods, storage, shipping, preservatives, etc. can all play a role in how good (or not) a food may be for the health of the fish.

Just as you mentioned above with clams and shrimp this can make a difference. In our case we do use whole, intact clams with all their juice as well as shrimp which are cleaned of their heads and exoskeleton but not the vein. I'm sure Paul appreciates the blackworms we fly in each week too.

 

[Brew12]

If we can't even follow a good example while the instructor is present so-to-speak, then maybe lots of us have selected the wrong hobby.

Sure, it is a hobby. The reality is that Paul is about as close to a professional in this as a hobbyist can get.

That's a pretty dim view of things that I prefer not to hold, but maybe I'm in denial and things are worse in the hobby even than they seem.

I think you are in denial if you don't believe that flakes and pellets are the most used food in the saltwater hobby. But, I could be off.

@ReefFrenzy You are well positioned to answer this. What percentage of the total salt water hobbyist food market do you think fresh or fresh frozen food makes up?

 

[laga77]

I think you are in denial if you don't believe that flakes and pellets are the most used food in the saltwater hobby. But, I could be off.

[

From all my discussions here and on other forums, flakes and pellets are the most used food by a large margin. It is also not uncommon to see people post that they only feed pellets 3-4 times a week.

 

[Paul B]

Larry, I do love the worms in your food. As I said I do use it. But I am Very old school and way before you or anyone offered frozen fish food I was feeding clams and worms. I did of course use flakes. The first food I remember was dried ants.
Flake food and pellets are a mainstay in this hobby and I guess would be OK if they were heavily supplemented with something that had oil and bacteria in it. I wrote probably too many times that besides bacteria, oil is a very important, rarely spoken about "mineral". Fish in the sea eat mostly fish. A fishes liver can be 15% of it's body weight and most of that is oil. If a shark eats a 100lb tuna, it is getting probably 12lbs of pure fish oil, but do we ever hear about feeding oil to our fish? No we don't. For some reason we either don't want to learn what fish in the sea eat or we don't believe it, preferring to think that fish in the sea eat dry flakes or tofu.
Do you know why fish need all that oil? I do. Or I think I do. As I said multiple times fish in the sea are always pregnant. Those eggs can be almost half the weight of the Mother fish and most of those eggs are oil. It is so much easier for the fish to manufacture that oil if they have the building blocks for it, which is, guess what? Oil!
All this from a high school graduate.
Also in those fish that the fish in the sea are eating is everything in their guts. Poop. Guess what Poop is made out of? Live bacteria. (as well as parasites and other pathogens) OMG!
So with our fish why do we feel we should eliminate oil and live bacteria, the essential things fish eat in the sea and wonder why there are so many entries on disease threads.
To learn what fish need all we have to do is spend some time with them underwater. Not like a tourist, but like a fish.
I would go diving, far away from any tourists. Hire a guide and tell him what I am looking for. He takes me to the place, throws me in the water and leaves me there until I either remember that I left my cell phone in my Speedo, or I run out of air. But in that time I lay near a coral head until the fish get used to me, then I can take my time and learn from the masters. The fish themselves.
See the fry to the left of that nurse shark? Those little oil filled, parasite and bacteria laden tidbits of living energy make up the majority of the diet that most of our fish food. You can look very close and you still won't see any flakes or pellets. Is it so far out of our realm of our thinking that if we tried to duplicate that diet, our fish may become healthy!
I can't get baby fish but I can get whole worms, Mysis and clams. What a concept. You know who taught me that? The fish.

 

[Empress]

How do you get the clam out of the shell? They're pretty gross.

 

[Paul B]

What you call gross, I call lunch as clams on the half shell are one of my favorite foods. And I never get ich.
I take the biggest clams I can find. Here in New York they are called chowder clams and are usually much bigger than this picture I took because I rather eat the smaller ones. But there isn't much meat in the small ones. I buy the clams live and partially open the shell, then I take something thin, like my wallet and insert it in the shell so he can't close it. Then I freeze it. After it is frozen I completely open it and with a sharp knife I carve a dent in the meat. Then I shave off paper thin pieces like you would carve chocolate. I can make bigger or smaller pieces depending on the size of my fish. I put that in a container and thaw it out. The container will now also be filled with clam juice. I also use that because that is an excellent coral food and it is free. I sometimes dump some of the juice out as it may be too much depending on how many corals and filter feeders you have. I have a lot of sponges and thy filter out this great food. It is IMO the best food there is. Clams. They are whole with all the guts. Eat some with your oatmeal. you may like them.
Clams sit on the bottom of the ocean and filter out food al day along with minerals. They are an excellent source of everything our fish need.



You can also use oysters, but I prefer to eat them myself.

 

[Empress]

In your wallet?? Like your drivers license? And if I cop pulls you over you tell him that the clam ate it? Nice. I'll bet your fish absolutely love you! And I will NOT eat them with my oatmeal! I'll bet your breath stinks too. [emoji12]

 

[Paul B]

A lot of Supermodels like clam breath.

 

[Paul B]

Lay next to this coral head for an hour and you will learn all you every wanted to know about fish nutrition. Closely watch how each fish makes their living. Get off the stupid phone and internet. I learned all I need to know about Moorish Idols by visiting them for a few hours.


If you look closely while underwater, you will see millions of these fry. But if you dive like a tourist, you will just pass over them.


People get the horrors if they see hair algae. I took this of a remote Island in Hawaii.


See all this "mulm" around the moray eel. (look close, he is there) That stuff is at the bottom of the food chain and is very important. It grows on the back and sides of my tank.



These guys can teach you plenty if you let them by closely watching them.

 

[laga77]

Marine fish use oil for their energy requirements like humans use proteins and carbohydrates. Half of all fish oil production in the world goes into feed for salmon farming. After production, the waste leftover from pressing the oily fish like sardines gets sold to the pet food industry. Read the labels on the cans. Most pellets are around 5% oil lipids and 35% protein. Not good if you are a fish.

 

[sundog101]

This has nothing to do with fish, but it's interesting.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/s...ove-people-can-become-immune-to-snake-venoms/
I saw that the other day. I think this guy is the equivalent to Paul's fish

 

[Paul B]

I am starting to think that it is the crap in the dry food that suppresses the immune system of the fish.

Marine fish use oil for their energy requirements like humans use proteins and carbohydrates. Half of all fish oil production in the world goes into feed for salmon farming. After production, the waste leftover from pressing the oily fish like sardines gets sold to the pet food industry. Read the labels on the cans. Most pellets are around 5% oil lipids and 35% protein. Not good if you are a fish.

A huge portion of fish oil also goes into cosmetics. Menhaden or what we here in New York call Bunker is a very oily fish. So oily you can't eat it but they are squeezed for cosmetics.
Oil makes up a large portion of a fishes diet and I feel it should be given. The best place for it is live food such as small fish, fish guts or worms.

 

[Paul B]

This has nothing to do with fish, but it's interesting.

This also has nothing to do with fish. It's more about squingel or conch. Another great food. And I needed a way to put my Grand Daughter, Greta in here.

 

[4FordFamily]

A page from my Log book in 1976. As you can see I kept Moorish Idols, French Angels and a copperband butterfly. And that was 1976



Here I had a Naso, a hippo tang and a Batfish

I understand that you kept those fish, I don't see any long term successes particularly with acanthurus tangs still. Naso and zebrasoma and hippo are all capable of living in ich management tanks even with poor husbandry (if they survive the first few weeks or months).

Merry Christmas to you too friend!