A discussion on immunity

[mcarroll]

I think you are in denial if you don't believe that flakes and pellets are the most used food in the saltwater hobby. But, I could be off.

So, because folks use what's put in front of them, we just put our efforts into keeping up the status quo?

No.

You're right that we can't stop newbs from setting up horrible tanks and adopting inadequate practices – it's a free country and look at the education system.

But once those newbs show up asking questions and all we can offer them is the same shakey QT + meds advice that dates from at least the 1950's...and which also takes a degree of expertise to implement that beginners will be lacking...it's a disservice to say the least.

In light of the information (that I've personally run across) that's been available in books since at least the 1930's it's really, really sad. Really sad.

QT + meds – for all the goods and bads – accounts for a tiny fraction of the story that's going on. That's just a fact.

Even in 1952 they knew this out loud even though (back then) they didn't have the benefit of being able to have all the answers in books like we do. (See "The Salt-Water Aquarium In the Home" by Straughan, p.130, where he also feels the need to point out that there are no magic potions for the hobby. )

Plus, QT and meds can both potentially ruin a good immune system. (covered earlier in the thread)

This means that there is the distinct potential for either QT, the meds, or both to do harm – making sick fish where there were healthy ones. (It seems like there is a certain degree of denial over this as it rarely if ever comes up.)

Using nothing but QT + meds to keep fish healthy is like trying to build a house using nothing but a First Aid Kit. Please count how many disease threads where QT and/or meds get discussed but there is no mention of stress factors or nutrition. It's not pretty.

There's a lot we could and should be doing differently.

Change is never popular I guess...Machiavelli found out.

 

[Paul B]

I would have to look through that old log book to see how those fish died. I am sure in those days I did not keep them for many years but I am interested to see how they died. That was before reefs so none of our tanks were very healthy.

 

[eatbreakfast]

So, because folks use what's put in front of them, we just put our efforts into keeping up the status quo?

No.

You're right that we can't stop newbs from setting up horrible tanks and adopting inadequate practices – it's a free country and look at the education system.

But once those newbs show up asking questions and all we can offer them is the same shakey QT + meds advice that dates from at least the 1950's...and which also takes a degree of expertise to implement that beginners will be lacking...it's a disservice to say the least.

In light of the information (that I've personally run across) that's been available in books since at least the 1930's it's really, really sad. Really sad.

QT + meds – for all the goods and bads – accounts for a tiny fraction of the story that's going on. That's just a fact.

Even in 1952 they knew this out loud even though (back then) they didn't have the benefit of being able to have all the answers in books like we do. (See "The Salt-Water Aquarium In the Home" by Straughan, p.130, where he also feels the need to point out that there are no magic potions for the hobby. )

Plus, QT and meds can both potentially ruin a good immune system. (covered earlier in the thread)

This means that there is the distinct potential for either QT, the meds, or both to do harm – making sick fish where there were healthy ones. (It seems like there is a certain degree of denial over this as it rarely if ever comes up.)

Using nothing but QT + meds to keep fish healthy is like trying to build a house using nothing but a First Aid Kit. Please count how many disease threads where QT and/or meds get discussed but there is no mention of stress factors or nutrition. It's not pretty.

There's a lot we could and should be doing differently.

Change is never popular I guess...Machiavelli found out.

You seem to keep focusing that 'we' are trying to say that one should only use qt+meds soley. This is not true. They should be used in conjunction with the proper diet of whole, fresh foods in sufficient quantities, and optimal water quality, and reasonable stocking levels and pace. Reef systems are complex ecosystems that are multilayered in their defenses and needs. Qt w/meds is just lessoning chances of incident greatly.

Overdosing and improperly administering meds is just as bad, if not worse than not using them.

Correct, it does require a skill set that often needs to be acquired over time, but so does a lot in this hobby. Many that try sps or a difficult care species the first time find out there is a learning curve, why would you expect different with learning to properly qt.

Just about all those studies touch on outside factors and stressors contributing to comprimising immunity. With dangerous pathogens in a tank, such as ich or velvet, a healthy fish's immune system often can tolerate it, however when fish are successfully dealing with it , the pathogen is already on the fish's last line of defense. As long as that last line holds, great. But as soon as a significant stressor comes that compromises that last line, it gets deadly fast. The vast majority of fish keepers are not at that level, period. So by properly qting, but still maintaining the optimal health of fish, the aquarist is not starting on the last line of defense, but rather has a few levels of defense, should something happen.

Also, I think Paul is significantly underestimating the impact of his reverse flow UG filter.Studies have shown that many parasites and pathogens wait in the substrate waiting for a new host. I believe that the passive current from that contributes to them not being able to stay there, thus allowing for a far less density of pathogens, which will be less taxing on his fish's immune system.

 

[Brew12]

So, because folks use what's put in front of them, we just put our efforts into keeping up the status quo?

I haven't seen anyone who supports using QT that recommends flake food.

But once those newbs show up asking questions and all we can offer them is the same shakey QT + meds advice that dates from at least the 1950's...and which also takes a degree of expertise to implement that beginners will be lacking...it's a disservice to say the least.

Zoo keepers recognized in 1800's that feeding animals as close to their native diet as possible improved their health. Just because this hasn't changed much in over 100 years doesn't mean PaulB's method is wrong. I would also point out that the QT and treatment recommendations today are nothing like what they were in the 1950's. There have been many modifications and improvements through the years.

Plus, QT and meds can both potentially ruin a good immune system. (covered earlier in the thread)

I thought I had read every post and link in this thread. I don't recall anyone referencing a study showing long term damage to the immune system by using QT. If you don't mind, link it again.

Using nothing but QT + meds to keep fish healthy is like trying to build a house using nothing but a First Aid Kit.

You are making a false argument here. No one is recommending using only QT and meds to keep fish healthy. It is a process to remove parasites in order to get them healthy and protect the fish already in the DT. This would be like saying the only thing Paul recommends is skipping QT and that fish would be healthy. You are singling out one practice instead of looking at it as part of an entire process.

Please count how many disease threads where QT and/or meds get discussed but there is no mention of stress factors or nutrition. It's not pretty.

Stress reduction is almost always talked about. The importance of maintaining water quality, providing hiding places, leaving lights off, and many other discussions along these lines regularly occur. These are all stress reduction methods. Nutrition isn't talked about as much but it comes up on a regular basis also. Almost every person who has a problem with ich in their DT is linked to the post on how to run an ich management system. Nutrition is most certainly discussed there and it is almost always presented as an option. Could nutrition be discussed every time? Sure. We could also mention the importance of leak detection systems to everyone asking plumbing questions. Some times it just doesn't fit the conversation or questions asked.

Spend some time in the Fish Disease thread. You will find many more people having problems who don't QT than who do. If using a QT system was bad, this should be the other way around.

 

[ReefFrenzy]

Sure, it is a hobby. The reality is that Paul is about as close to a professional in this as a hobbyist can get.


I think you are in denial if you don't believe that flakes and pellets are the most used food in the saltwater hobby. But, I could be off.

@ReefFrenzy You are well positioned to answer this. What percentage of the total salt water hobbyist food market do you think fresh or fresh frozen food makes up?

Give me a little time and I can try and get an answer for you. There is data in our trade regarding this I just have to reach out to the right folks. In my experience I think more and more hobbyists are gravitating towards feeding frozen foods or maybe it is simply the experienced hobbyists who are attracted to our brand. We've seen unthrottled growth every year for the past five years and I would like to think a portion of those sales went to folks who switched from dry foods to a frozen food to get the benefits of a better feeding response, enhanced nutrition, better water quality, etc.

How do you get the clam out of the shell? They're pretty gross.

We shuck the clams with an "oyster shucker" which is basically a short stubby knife.

I would agree that beneficial fats DO play a huge role in overall nutrition, but it can get pretty complicated. Ornamental fish kept in aquariums (including public ones) are not as active as in the wild and therefore too much of the wrong fats can have a detrimental effect. Fatty deposits can build up on organs over time and I've personally spoken to people who have dissected dead fish that have been housed in public aquariums for many years. It is for this reason that proper ratios of DHA and EPA fatty acids need to sought for optimal long-term health. Now granted this is full swing from hobbyists who are under feeding, but it is not as simple as just adding fat or oil to the food.

Last year inquiring minds started asking why our foods produce the results they do time after time again in captive breeding successes like the recent Blue Tangs. We have done extensive laboratory testing to determine which factors in LRS may have contributed to improving the diets of the broodstock, verses what they had been feeding prior. Beneficial fats came down to a critical component. Our marine fish eggs are still being used as a supplement for broodstock because as one researcher put it "they have the most perfect 3:1 DHA to EPA ratio I've ever seen in a natural food." We have profiles like this one on file for Reef, Fish and Fertility Frenzy as well and they all display balanced DHA/EPA ratios. Unlike freshwater fish marine ornamentals do not have the ability to "up convert" inferior foods to extract the necessary amino acids and fats to sustain life. If your marine fish "don't ingest it they don't get it" is a pretty easy way of looking at it. Therefore we need to make sure the foods we offer are complete and balanced if optimal health is concerned.

Screen Shot 2016-10-18 at 9.24.26 PM by Larry DuPont, on Flickr

 

[Brew12]

It's unfortunate, but I think this this thread got off track early and has stayed off the rails for too long. Somehow, this became a thread about being for or against using QT and med's.

This is from the first post in this thread. Maybe I don't get to hang out with enough supermodels to understand, but this hardly seems like Paul is saying QT + meds is bad.

So after researching all of this I have come to the conclusion that quarantining fish for an extended amount of time is actually very bad for our fishes health. In my opinion, if we want to quarantine I would do it using drugs such as copper in the theory that doing so will kill any parasites present in about 10 days while keeping the immunity the fish intact. Then I would feed at least some live food every day not just for the vitamins that come from live food, but for the bacteria. I am not sure how long a fishes immunity lasts but in the sea, it was immune, or almost immune for it's entire life. When a fish is collected, stored, starved and shipped it is in a very weakened state and their immune system is hardly functioning so even though the immune response to parasites, viruses and bacteria is there. It isn't strong enough to protect the fish, but if we can get it out of stress, fed live bacteria laden food and in a stable envirnment as soon as possable, it will recover and sustain some of their immunity.

He is advising against an extended amount of time in a QT which I think is a very reasonable stance. He doesn't claim to know what "an extended period of time is" only that the parasites can be killed in about 10 days and that it is important to feed fish live food for the bacteria as soon as possible. Seems like great advice to me.

Paul has also been very consistent with these recommendations. It took me awhile to find, but here is a past comment from a different thread that made a large impression on me.

I want to talk about quarantining, or not quarantining. I get in trouble for my opinion for this all the time (yes, even on this forum which is pretty liberal with your methods) and that is one reason I don't post on that big forum any more. People have the wrong idea and for some reason very few people grasp the concept. Quarantining if fine, if that is what you want to do, go for it as it is one way to run a tank. But if you don't want to quarantine, there are things you should do or you will lose your tank to disease. You can't just have a normal tank that you set up a year or two ago and decide to not quarantine. There is a process that goes along with it just like there is a process that goes along with quarantining and if you do it wrong, you will lose your fish and condemn the system you are using.
First and foremost your fish need to get into excellent shape, which we should strive for no matter what system we use. It takes about two months to get most fish into excellent shape if it is done correctly. I know it takes about 7 weeks with damsels so I am guessing on other fish.
Just because they are swimming around looking at you while whistling doesn't mean they are in great shape. If they are not spawning or making spawning gestures, they are not healthy no matter what their doctor says.
To do this we need to eliminate the dry, sterile foods like flakes, pellets and freeze dried anything. Use them in an emergency or if you go on vacation and you need to put it in a feeder but never as a way to feed fish every day. If you want to use dry foods, "keep quarantining". I mean that. ( yes, even expensive dry foods)

I don't think any of us have done a good job actually reading what he is saying.

 

[Empress]

I understand that feeding fresh, live or frozen live is the best nutrition for our reefs, but I have mostly herbivores and they won't touch clams. They'll eat frozen krill and brine shrimp with spiralina though.

I tried peas and broccoli many years ago and if I remember correctly they were afraid of these things floating around in their tank so I never tried again.

I wonder if there's a better way to introduce fresh veggies so the fish won't be so skittish that they'll go and hide and the veggies end up in the sump.

 

[Brew12]

Give me a little time and I can try and get an answer for you. There is data in our trade regarding this I just have to reach out to the right folks. In my experience I think more and more hobbyists are gravitating towards feeding frozen foods or maybe it is simply the experienced hobbyists who are attracted to our brand. We've seen unthrottled growth every year for the past five years and I would like to think a portion of those sales went to folks who switched from dry foods to a frozen food to get the benefits of a better feeding response, enhanced nutrition, better water quality, etc.

I wouldn't waste too much time trying to find an answer. I'll be upset if you miss a shipment to my LFS because you were researching it!
I think it is fantastic that you guys are having such amazing growth. Definitely a positive for it to be trending in a good direction! I just can't help but think that you still have a tiny share of the overall hobby fish food market.

 

[laga77]

I understand that feeding fresh, live or frozen live is the best nutrition for our reefs, but I have mostly herbivores and they won't touch clams. They'll eat frozen krill and brine shrimp with spiralina though.

I tried peas and broccoli many years ago and if I remember correctly they were afraid of these things floating around in their tank so I never tried again.

I wonder if there's a better way to introduce fresh veggies so the fish won't be so skittish that they'll go and hide and the veggies end up in the sump.

A couple of things, do not feed terrestrial plants to marine fish. Reef fish did not evolve eating terrestrial plants. They are not capable of digesting the fibers in the plant material. Reef fishes eat algae. There are some parrot fish that eat sea grass, sea grass and mangroves are the only plants that grow in salt water, but thats about it. Also it has been shown that the lipids in terrestrial plants damage the heart and livers of marine fish over time. Your so called herbivores are actually omnivores. They will eat the clams along with the shrimp and fish. In fact, this is one of the reasons why people have trouble with tangs. They feed nothing but nori and the tangs do not get enough lipids to keep them energized, which leads to stress and immunity problems. The favorite food of my PBT is chopped up shrimp followed by some cheato and caulerpa. It will eat nori, but not like the Foxface or Emperor.

 

[Brew12]

A couple of things, do not feed terrestrial plants to marine fish. Reef fish did not evolve eating terrestrial plants. They are not capable of digesting the fibers in the plant material. Reef fishes eat algae. There are some parrot fish that eat sea grass, sea grass and mangroves are the only plants that grow in salt water, but thats about it. Also it has been shown that the lipids in terrestrial plants damage the heart and livers of marine fish over time. Your so called herbivores are actually omnivores. They will eat the clams along with the shrimp and fish. In fact, this is one of the reasons why people have trouble with tangs. They feed nothing but nori and the tangs do not get enough lipids to keep them energized, which leads to stress and immunity problems. The favorite food of my PBT is chopped up shrimp followed by some cheato and caulerpa. It will eat nori, but not like the Foxface or Emperor.

Since LRS is active on this thread, I'll post their preferred food for Tangs. I found this a bit surprising at first for a product that calls itself "Herbivore Frenzy".

 

[jenreefer]

Give me a little time and I can try and get an answer for you. There is data in our trade regarding this I just have to reach out to the right folks. In my experience I think more and more hobbyists are gravitating towards feeding frozen foods or maybe it is simply the experienced hobbyists who are attracted to our brand. We've seen unthrottled growth every year for the past five years and I would like to think a portion of those sales went to folks who switched from dry foods to a frozen food to get the benefits of a better feeding response, enhanced nutrition, better water quality, etc.



We shuck the clams with an "oyster shucker" which is basically a short stubby knife.

I would agree that beneficial fats DO play a huge role in overall nutrition, but it can get pretty complicated. Ornamental fish kept in aquariums (including public ones) are not as active as in the wild and therefore too much of the wrong fats can have a detrimental effect. Fatty deposits can build up on organs over time and I've personally spoken to people who have dissected dead fish that have been housed in public aquariums for many years. It is for this reason that proper ratios of DHA and EPA fatty acids need to sought for optimal long-term health. Now granted this is full swing from hobbyists who are under feeding, but it is not as simple as just adding fat or oil to the food.

Last year inquiring minds started asking why our foods produce the results they do time after time again in captive breeding successes like the recent Blue Tangs. We have done extensive laboratory testing to determine which factors in LRS may have contributed to improving the diets of the broodstock, verses what they had been feeding prior. Beneficial fats came down to a critical component. Our marine fish eggs are still being used as a supplement for broodstock because as one researcher put it "they have the most perfect 3:1 DHA to EPA ratio I've ever seen in a natural food." We have profiles like this one on file for Reef, Fish and Fertility Frenzy as well and they all display balanced DHA/EPA ratios. Unlike freshwater fish marine ornamentals do not have the ability to "up convert" inferior foods to extract the necessary amino acids and fats to sustain life. If your marine fish "don't ingest it they don't get it" is a pretty easy way of looking at it. Therefore we need to make sure the foods we offer are complete and balanced if optimal health is concerned.

Screen Shot 2016-10-18 at 9.24.26 PM by Larry DuPont, on Flickr

I have been feeding your foods as maybe 60-70% of my fishes and corals diets. I just wanted to thank you for making it possible to be successful without making my own home made concoction like I did in the past. Your research and dedication are amazing. Keep up the good work.

 

[laga77]

Since LRS is active on this thread, I'll post their preferred food for Tangs. I found this a bit surprising at first for a product that calls itself "Herbivore Frenzy".

Its called marketing. He needs to sell his product to make a living. At least he is putting out a product that is good for the fish. If your are not going to make your own fish food, then LRS is the way to go.

 

[Paul B]

Also, I think Paul is significantly underestimating the impact of his reverse flow UG filter.Studies have shown that many parasites and pathogens wait in the substrate waiting for a new host. I believe that the passive current from that contributes to them not being able to stay there, thus allowing for a far less density of pathogens, which will be less taxing on his fish's immune system.

I think this may be a stretch, but what do I know. I love my reverse undergravel filter and if it annoys parasites, so be it. I also have been using ozone ever since my tank started. I built my first ozone generator from a neon transformer but it was so powerful that it tended to dim the lights in the neighborhood so I ended up buying one. If that has any impact on parasites, you would have to ask the parasites. My tank is also full of sponges that "probably" eat parasites for lunch. But I have only had them for 10 years or so, so they would not have an impact on my fishes immunity.

As was said, this thread has gotten way off subject. I did say, If you want to quarantine, go for it. I am merely trying to elicit a discussion on a different method. A different method that I can prove works. It's not for everyone and there are many people on this forum that won't even come on this thread to read it because if you mention to some people that there is an alternative to quarantining, they get upset. That is "one" reason I don't go on "that" forum any more. Some people are just not into a different idea and that's fine. There are plenty of threads I don't go on because I disagree with the author and feel I would just screw up their thread.
There are plenty of quarantine threads I don't go on because I feel I would be a detriment as I don't use that system because "In my mind" I found a better way. I could of course be totally wrong, but that is in my mind and since it has worked for decades, why change now. I also don't go on a thread that reads "Which are the best dry foods" because I have nothing to say about them.
I don't go on threads that state that my fish has a spot, what should I do, and the advice is to remove all the fish for 72 days and treat with Prozapro, sulfuric acid, Metrothiolate something etc. Then the fish dies.
I don't think fish are so delicate. If my salinity is a little low, I add some salt water, not over a month, maybe over an hour. I don't acclimate for a day, I acclimate for maybe 20 minutes and have never lost a fish acclimating.
For some reason I don't seem to have the problems many people have and I never have any of the fish disease problems, could I be that lucky?
I try to explain my methods that took me fifty years to learn but it is hard because of the arguments. Not on this forum of course.
I don't know what it is but I have been trying to explain it. I get up, feel the glass of my tank to check the temperature and go about my day. At night I feed them and go to bed. That is 95% of my maintenance. If a fish dies, it will always be from either jumping out or old age, then I will autopsy it (if I have time). I know most people find a dead fish and just flush it, then they guess all the things it died from. If I am in a hurry I will at least examine the gill filaments. Anyone could and should do this. Use a magnifying glass or a cheap jeweler's loupe and look for torn tissues or parasites. They are very easy to see. I mentioned this once and I was immediately yelled at because it was too complicated and we are not doctors. How stupid are we? If we get a splinter do we go to a surgeon to remove it? The fish is already dead! He won't sue you.
If you find torn gill filaments or parasites you will know that you have a problem and need to address it.
I wrote that I cure Pop Eye with a hypodermic needle in 5 seconds and got the same response. I am an electrician and I have no problem doing it. If we were the only two people in the world and your eye was hanging out of your head and I said I could cure you in five seconds would you say, Oh God No, I like seeing behind me and on top of my head at the same time. Or would you say, what are you waiting for.
This is not rocket science and we are dealing with Fish, or what I usually call, lunch.
I look very immune here.

 

[Brew12]

As was said, this thread has gotten way off subject. I did say, If you want to quarantine, go for it. I am merely trying to elicit a discussion on a different method. A different method that I can prove works. It's not for everyone and there are many people on this forum that won't even come on this thread to read it because if you mention to some people that there is an alternative to quarantining, they get upset.

I think we could focus on many of your ideas as being an enhancement to using QT instead of a replacement for it. As you said, it takes years for a tank to have the diverse biology necessary to make your method work without QT. I have used QT on my fish. I also try to feed them a high quality diet . If something does slip through my QT process I want them as healthy as possible to help fight it off. For a new reefer or someone with a new system, it seems like this is the best option.

@Paul B , do you ever mail order fish? If so, Have you had much luck putting them straight into your tank? Based on other comments you have made it seems like your process works for you because you know what a healthy fish looks like. Really hard to tell how healthy the fish is when it comes to your door in a cardboard box.

One thing we should consider is implementing your suggestions into the Ich Management thread. I'm going to read through that and give it some thought.

 

[Paul B]

Brew, I live on Long Island New York and can't swing a dead catfish without hitting 3 or 4 LFSs so there is no reason for me to buy any livestock through the mail. I can get or order anything I want and they will get it.
I think there are about 6 or 7 stores with in five miles from my house, maybe more. I helped start one of the largest in the early 70s.

As for mixing the two systems, you really can sometimes. If you want to feed live worms you may have a problem although you won't have any parasite problems because blackworms are fresh water creatures and parasites that we are concerned about are salt water. I guess clams should be fine because we freeze them. Of course you couldn't add anything live from the sea, or NSW but most people can't do that anyway.
The problem is that I actually want a healthy population of parasites living in my tank. We think of parasites as a bad thing, something to kill but imagine what the parasites think of us. They are a natural creature that have been here millions of years before us and evolved along with the fish in a "Symbiotic" relationship. Yes, I realize they are thought of as a parasitic relationship but a true parasite is one sided and does not really help the host in any way. "In my tank and in this hobby" parasites can enhance the fishes immune system without doing any harm to the fish. Now don't jump all over me and put up charts of parasites killing fish, dogs, emu's Moose etc.
I also know how Wikipedia defines parasites, I am speaking about this hobby alone and "only" in a tank that does not quarantine. In a quarantined tank a true Parasite will wipe out a tank in no time.
I like to use parasites, algae and bacteria to my benefit rather than fight with them. So far, it works.
So many threads start out with "I am battling algae, battling ich, battling flatworms, battling cyano. I was in a war and I know what battling is and hair algae is not going to fight you.
We humans are also home to many parasites most of which we are not aware of. Our immune system keeps them from entering our bodies and turning us into Liberals. (OK it's a joke) If parasites were much larger and looked like puppies we would be keeping them as pets.

One thing we should consider is implementing your suggestions into the Ich Management thread. I'm going to read through that and give it some thought.

I don't like the term Ich Management, I prefer "Immune".

 

[Empress]

A couple of things, do not feed terrestrial plants to marine fish. Reef fish did not evolve eating terrestrial plants. They are not capable of digesting the fibers in the plant material. Reef fishes eat algae. There are some parrot fish that eat sea grass, sea grass and mangroves are the only plants that grow in salt water, but thats about it. Also it has been shown that the lipids in terrestrial plants damage the heart and livers of marine fish over time. Your so called herbivores are actually omnivores. They will eat the clams along with the shrimp and fish. In fact, this is one of the reasons why people have trouble with tangs. They feed nothing but nori and the tangs do not get enough lipids to keep them energized, which leads to stress and immunity problems. The favorite food of my PBT is chopped up shrimp followed by some cheato and caulerpa. It will eat nori, but not like the Foxface or Emperor.

So you're saying that broccoli and peas are terrestrial plants and they are harmful to my tangs and foxface? I keep finding (not on purpose) contradicting information on this.

 

[Brew12]

there is no reason for me to buy any livestock through the mail.

I had a feeling this was the case, just wanted to confirm.

As for mixing the two systems, you really can sometimes.

I think you would have to mix them. You acknowledge that your methods aren't for a new system. That would imply as both the reef and the reefer develop you would need to transition from a relatively sterile tank kept free of parasites, to one with healthy fish and diverse bacteria, to adding parasites and even more biological diversity.

parasites can enhance the fishes immune system without doing any harm to the fish.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I think it is more accurate to say that being exposed to parasites keeps the fishes adaptive immunity ready to continue fighting the parasite. In this case, the harm to the fish is fairly negligible.

The big advantage to this imo isn't that it makes the fish healthier, but it does make it so the exposure to a parasite won't wipe your tank.

If parasites were much larger and looked like puppies we would be keeping them as pets.

Umm... you do keep them as pets. Many other reefers do too, they just don't realize it. What makes you different is that you embrace these pets where others dread them!

 

[Paul B]

I'm not sure I agree with this. I think it is more accurate to say that being exposed to parasites keeps the fishes adaptive immunity ready to continue fighting the parasite. In this case, the harm to the fish is fairly negligible.

The big advantage to this imo isn't that it makes the fish healthier, but it does make it so the exposure to a parasite won't wipe your tank.

I thought about this when I wrote it and I was thinking that the majority of parasites attack the slime of a fish and come away with a slimy meal of slime. That slimy meal would not actually harm the fish in any way. It would be like you were on a desert Island sweating and a Supermodel suddenly appeared and wiped off some of that sweat. Would that harm you? I think not. Fish excrete slime constantly and it is meant to wash away.
I am still thinking about this, and that Supermodel. I think the parasites in my tank are living on slime because the numerous autopsies I performed found no parasites in the gills. If they didn't make it to the gills, they must be eating something and there is no tapioca pudding in my tank so I assume they are eating fish slime. But I am certainly guessing.

I think you would have to mix them. You acknowledge that your methods aren't for a new system. That would imply as both the reef and the reefer develop you would need to transition from a relatively sterile tank kept free of parasites, to one with healthy fish and diverse bacteria, to adding parasites and even more biological diversity.

I meant that term as a Noob tank because they are, well, Noobs. To do this system it is easier to do it when the tank is started up by a reefer who is not a Noob. Like when Armstrong came back from the Moon, if he was already a reefer and had to take his tank down because of that moon thing, he could then start up an immune tank. It is easy because fish from the sea are already kind of immune and you just have to feed the fish correctly to keep then immune. I think it would be more difficult to take a tank full of quarantined fish, which IMO have no immune system and try to expose them to parasites or Rap music.
I guess you could take quarantined fish and try this but you may have to intercede with copper until they build up immunity.

 

[Paul B]

So you're saying that broccoli and peas are terrestrial plants and they are harmful to my tangs and foxface? I keep finding (not on purpose) contradicting information on this.

I doubt they are harmful, just not as good as seaweed because terrestrial plants have a tough outer covering where as seaweed does not. Seaweed is also "probably " healthier for fish. Of course I also eat seaweed.

 

[Empress]

I doubt they are harmful, just not as good as seaweed because terrestrial plants have a tough outer covering where as seaweed does not. Seaweed is also "probably " healthier for fish. Of course I also eat seaweed.

If you get clams, you'll eat anything. I'd rather eat this [emoji487].