A discussion on immunity
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Paul B
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Love that book. 
I took that cover picture as a goof. I put my SCUBA camera in the tank and took it of me outside the tank. That was way before I had any thoughts of a book. 
Brew you can read that link in 10 minutes, no reason to wait for a cruise unless your cruise will only last 10 minutes.
I took that cover picture as a goof. I put my SCUBA camera in the tank and took it of me outside the tank. That was way before I had any thoughts of a book. Brew you can read that link in 10 minutes, no reason to wait for a cruise unless your cruise will only last 10 minutes.
Brew12
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I have read the link a few times. I think I've actually posted that link on here before. Saving the book for the cruise! Nothing like reading about supermodels while in the Caribbean.Love that book.
Brew you can read that link in 10 minutes, no reason to wait for a cruise unless your cruise will only last 10 minutes.
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Paul B
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That is true, but then again, you can just look out the window. I am also going to the Caribbean to a kind of private Island called Mystique. I will probably dive there but I am really spoiled by Tahiti so the Caribbean isn't a thrill any more but my Daughter wants me to dive with her so I will go. I have a really screwed up back so I may have to velcro on my tank as I am not sure I can put the thing on. 
klp
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Thanks for the great information and your example at reef keeping! Read all you write with great interest. Best of luck on your move!
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Paul B
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I really hate to look this stuff up because the first time took me weeks of literature to go through. But I will try to find some studies on immunity.
Quote:
According to Ruane et al. [53], fish infected by parasites significantly changed their haematological parameters. Leukocyte counts can be applied as a measure of general immune response. The increased leukocyte counts and shift values towards the myeloid line (especially a high number of myelocytes and metamyelocytes) reflect the current infection or inflammation [54].
This is not true nor does it have anything to do with my methods. I said multiple times and there is an entire chapter in my book about it about this. The main reason I wrote a book was so I didn't have to re-hash this information dozens of times.
I always say that a new tank with all new water is never healthy and it will never be healthy enough to use this system until it has a few years of age on it. This is where people make mistakes about immunity and UG filters. Many people take a sentence here and there and come up with a conclusion that is totally wrong. If you did what you proposed, your tank would crash, guaranteed.
The Mud, amphipods and NSW I sometimes add to my tank is for water quality. It doesn't work to good because my water quality sucks.
You need to have an established tank, maybe after a crash or someone gave it to you or all your fish died. Then you buy a fish, any fish that is in reasonable health, not something that is in the process of having last rites.
Put the fish in the tank with no quarantine at all. No medications, no acclimation box, no observation tank. Just drip it or however you introduce fish quickly. All of those things stress fish and STRESS CAUSES ILLNESS.
Feed the fish every meal with frozen food along with something live like worms or clams. Anything with "living" bacteria in it. The fish may exhibit spots. Don't worry about it but of course don't buy a fish that looks like a salt shaker fell on it. I can put that fish in my tank but not in this hypothetical tank tank yet.
After a few days, get another fish and do the same thing.
Now here is the key so read closely and don't make stuff up. Fish in the sea are already immune because they were in the sea a week or so ago. Fish have to be immune or they would croak every time they ate another fish because all fish carry parasites in their gut and on their skin.
This is a GOOD thing and it is natural and the fish were designed to live with parasites just like we are covered in parasites. Up our nose, in our ears, between out toes etc.
Keep adding fish, but never stress the fish by quarantining or medication. Stress is the biggest killer, not parasites. Fish don't get much stress in the sea like they do in a tank and they can't handle it. Of course they are chased by other fish, but that is normal for a fish and they know how to deal with it. But stress from being in a small container is a biggy and will cause disease. I didn't make this up but I wish I had.
Now everyone who has a quarantined tank that has some age on it, not 5 or 6 years and the fish have never been sick, all the paired fish are spawning and only dying of old age, raise your hand. Higher.
Quote:
According to Ruane et al. [53], fish infected by parasites significantly changed their haematological parameters. Leukocyte counts can be applied as a measure of general immune response. The increased leukocyte counts and shift values towards the myeloid line (especially a high number of myelocytes and metamyelocytes) reflect the current infection or inflammation [54].
This is not true nor does it have anything to do with my methods. I said multiple times and there is an entire chapter in my book about it about this. The main reason I wrote a book was so I didn't have to re-hash this information dozens of times.
I always say that a new tank with all new water is never healthy and it will never be healthy enough to use this system until it has a few years of age on it. This is where people make mistakes about immunity and UG filters. Many people take a sentence here and there and come up with a conclusion that is totally wrong. If you did what you proposed, your tank would crash, guaranteed.
The Mud, amphipods and NSW I sometimes add to my tank is for water quality. It doesn't work to good because my water quality sucks.
You need to have an established tank, maybe after a crash or someone gave it to you or all your fish died. Then you buy a fish, any fish that is in reasonable health, not something that is in the process of having last rites.
Put the fish in the tank with no quarantine at all. No medications, no acclimation box, no observation tank. Just drip it or however you introduce fish quickly. All of those things stress fish and STRESS CAUSES ILLNESS.
Feed the fish every meal with frozen food along with something live like worms or clams. Anything with "living" bacteria in it. The fish may exhibit spots. Don't worry about it but of course don't buy a fish that looks like a salt shaker fell on it. I can put that fish in my tank but not in this hypothetical tank tank yet.
After a few days, get another fish and do the same thing.
Now here is the key so read closely and don't make stuff up. Fish in the sea are already immune because they were in the sea a week or so ago. Fish have to be immune or they would croak every time they ate another fish because all fish carry parasites in their gut and on their skin.
This is a GOOD thing and it is natural and the fish were designed to live with parasites just like we are covered in parasites. Up our nose, in our ears, between out toes etc.
Keep adding fish, but never stress the fish by quarantining or medication. Stress is the biggest killer, not parasites. Fish don't get much stress in the sea like they do in a tank and they can't handle it. Of course they are chased by other fish, but that is normal for a fish and they know how to deal with it. But stress from being in a small container is a biggy and will cause disease. I didn't make this up but I wish I had.
Now everyone who has a quarantined tank that has some age on it, not 5 or 6 years and the fish have never been sick, all the paired fish are spawning and only dying of old age, raise your hand. Higher.
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Paul B
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Thank you KLP. 
My wife and I just came back from a talk on MS by my wife's Neurologist who is touted as the best MS specialist on Long Island. Anyway the talk was about the immune system and the MS treatments, especially the new ones. There is a lot of interest now in gut bacteria and how it can change the immune system and how it can alter our immune system. They can now take gut bacteria from a thin person and transfer it to an overweight person and the overweight person will lost some weight and if the bacteria stay viable by introducing new foods, that person can stay thin. They have also had some success curing diabetes using the same procedure.
I was discussing with him (he is also a friend of ours) how my fish are immune seemingly from everything and he agrees it could be from the live bacteria and pathogens in the clams and live worms guts that gets transferred to the fish. This theory of changing gut bacteria is fairly new and even he said that that is the future of medicine. I said, the main reason they are not doing to much of it is because it is not a big money maker for any drug company. I mean Poop doesn't cost to much.
I am going to ask him if he will help me write an article because he specializes in the immune system and is very knowledgeable about T cells, white cells, macrophages etc.
My wife and I just came back from a talk on MS by my wife's Neurologist who is touted as the best MS specialist on Long Island. Anyway the talk was about the immune system and the MS treatments, especially the new ones. There is a lot of interest now in gut bacteria and how it can change the immune system and how it can alter our immune system. They can now take gut bacteria from a thin person and transfer it to an overweight person and the overweight person will lost some weight and if the bacteria stay viable by introducing new foods, that person can stay thin. They have also had some success curing diabetes using the same procedure.
I was discussing with him (he is also a friend of ours) how my fish are immune seemingly from everything and he agrees it could be from the live bacteria and pathogens in the clams and live worms guts that gets transferred to the fish. This theory of changing gut bacteria is fairly new and even he said that that is the future of medicine. I said, the main reason they are not doing to much of it is because it is not a big money maker for any drug company. I mean Poop doesn't cost to much.
I am going to ask him if he will help me write an article because he specializes in the immune system and is very knowledgeable about T cells, white cells, macrophages etc.
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Paul B
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Mcarroll it will be awesome if he helps me. 
The guy is extremely smart.
The guy is extremely smart.Humans have only been living in sterile environments for the last 100 years. Before that, we basically pooped in the streets and ate filthy, half spoiled food. People have been around living like that for millions of years and we had no prizapro. The reason my fish are seemingly immune to everything IMO is the gut bacteria in the worms and clams I feed almost every day.
(My Neurologist friend agrees with me on that) We will one day change our ideas on this hobby and embrace some types bacteria, viruses and parasites as valuable life forms that help us rather than kill us. Without our gut bacteria we would die..
It is such a simple concept and fish are not at all delicate. There is no need for them to have to be taught to eat and to make feeders for fish such as copperbands etc. Almost all fish should ravish food and in a tank with no predators they should not be shy.
We call bacteria, viruses and parasites pests because we can't see them and don't know how cute they are. If they looked like baby panda bears we would be paying big bucks for them and using poisons to keep our fish away from them.
I feed live worms with the dirt. My fish won't get sick, it just can't happen. When I move in a few weeks, that's another story.
(My Neurologist friend agrees with me on that) We will one day change our ideas on this hobby and embrace some types bacteria, viruses and parasites as valuable life forms that help us rather than kill us. Without our gut bacteria we would die..
It is such a simple concept and fish are not at all delicate. There is no need for them to have to be taught to eat and to make feeders for fish such as copperbands etc. Almost all fish should ravish food and in a tank with no predators they should not be shy.
We call bacteria, viruses and parasites pests because we can't see them and don't know how cute they are. If they looked like baby panda bears we would be paying big bucks for them and using poisons to keep our fish away from them.
I feed live worms with the dirt. My fish won't get sick, it just can't happen. When I move in a few weeks, that's another story.
Last edited:
klp
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For those that do not understand how gut bacteria can affect the immune system, MS researchers are looking into it as we speak for ways to stop the progression of MS. Probiotics is more important than we have realized in the past. Remember when you take oral antibiotics you kill all that good bacteria off. That is one reason why we become more susceptible to more diseases the more we are treated. Most doctors fail to mention anything about this as many are very ignorant about things like this and do not consider them important. I know I have never been told about this when I have been proscribed antibiotics. Ditto dentists and any others that proscribe oral antibiotics. Here is a link below to a short article that shows some of what Paul B is talking about.Thank you KLP.
My wife and I just came back from a talk on MS by my wife's Neurologist who is touted as the best MS specialist on Long Island. Anyway the talk was about the immune system and the MS treatments, especially the new ones. There is a lot of interest now in gut bacteria and how it can change the immune system and how it can alter our immune system. They can now take gut bacteria from a thin person and transfer it to an overweight person and the overweight person will lost some weight and if the bacteria stay viable by introducing new foods, that person can stay thin. They have also had some success curing diabetes using the same procedure.
I was discussing with him (he is also a friend of ours) how my fish are immune seemingly from everything and he agrees it could be from the live bacteria and pathogens in the clams and live worms guts that gets transferred to the fish. This theory of changing gut bacteria is fairly new and even he said that that is the future of medicine. I said, the main reason they are not doing to much of it is because it is not a big money maker for any drug company. I mean Poop doesn't cost to much.
I am going to ask him if he will help me write an article because he specializes in the immune system and is very knowledgeable about T cells, white cells, macrophages etc.
https://www.nationalmssociety.org/A...acteria-Differ-in-People-with-MS-and-May-Resp
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Paul B
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Klp, thank you for that link. I have been following studies on this for a long time.
klp
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You might consider this one for your wife and self. It comes highly recommended http://drohhirasprobiotics.com/. Hope it helps.
wowkingjames
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As always great info Mr. B.....
Hot2na
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When I first read this thread , I thought - BALONEY !! immunity my *&%$# !! Then I realized that I may have seen this first hand. I had a group of fish introduced to my 37 gal anemone/clown/whatever tank...within 3 weeks they were flashing their gills and heads against the rocks and whatever they could find to get relief...I've seen this behavior before-flukes..gill or skin...it don't matter.
Anyway to get to my point...my lfs recommended feeding live blackworms to my new ritterii anemone..Said it was the best food possible for a nem..So with skepticism -I ordered a bag and began to feed..Well the nem liked the blackworms and so did the fish..And since I would get a large bag full of blackworms -I discontinued feeding the flakes and pellets I was using and just fed the live blackworms...This went on for a couple months...I was too lazy to worry about DE-Fluking the fish...and was very busy with my other hobby - saltwater fishing to pay attention what was going on..I'd just walk in throw some live blackworms in the tank,rinse the remainder and keep in the fridge...I would do this sometimes 2-3 times a day when I had time. LONG story short...after many many weeks - I noticed the fish weren't flashing on the rocks anymore, they were fatter and "glowing" ...also the clowns started to spawn....after a yr ...I realized the fluke issue was NO MORE...with no meds or treatments needed... Could this experience support what Paul has been telling us in this thread ? I think so...
Anyway to get to my point...my lfs recommended feeding live blackworms to my new ritterii anemone..Said it was the best food possible for a nem..So with skepticism -I ordered a bag and began to feed..Well the nem liked the blackworms and so did the fish..And since I would get a large bag full of blackworms -I discontinued feeding the flakes and pellets I was using and just fed the live blackworms...This went on for a couple months...I was too lazy to worry about DE-Fluking the fish...and was very busy with my other hobby - saltwater fishing to pay attention what was going on..I'd just walk in throw some live blackworms in the tank,rinse the remainder and keep in the fridge...I would do this sometimes 2-3 times a day when I had time. LONG story short...after many many weeks - I noticed the fish weren't flashing on the rocks anymore, they were fatter and "glowing" ...also the clowns started to spawn....after a yr ...I realized the fluke issue was NO MORE...with no meds or treatments needed... Could this experience support what Paul has been telling us in this thread ? I think so...
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Hot2na, Very few people believe it. It took my first blue devils about 7 weeks to become immune and start to spawn on blackworms. That was my start to an immune tank. But I was lucky because there was no internet and therefore no wrong information or rumors. In the beginning I also thought fish couldn't get immune to parasites. I figured it would like being immune from bullets. But after a number of years, I learned (along with the researchers) differently.
This is a very easy hobby. We make it difficult by interfering with a natural process.
This is a very easy hobby. We make it difficult by interfering with a natural process.
Hot2na
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"This is a very easy hobby. We make it difficult by interfering with a natural process." yes you're 100% correct.
All I do now when I buy a fish is throw them in an observation tank, lower the salinity to 1.012 for a week...fresh clam,scallop,and any fresh fish I catch -soaked in garlic is what they eat...when I can -blackworms also. after a week into the display tank with more of the same food....that's it ! say NO to DRUGS , lol !! ....................
All I do now when I buy a fish is throw them in an observation tank, lower the salinity to 1.012 for a week...fresh clam,scallop,and any fresh fish I catch -soaked in garlic is what they eat...when I can -blackworms also. after a week into the display tank with more of the same food....that's it ! say NO to DRUGS , lol !! ....................
Cruz Mc5
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I always say that a new tank with all new water is never healthy and it will never be healthy enough to use this system until it has a few years of age on it. This is where people make mistakes about immunity and UG filters. Many people take a sentence here and there and come up with a conclusion that is totally wrong. If you did what you proposed, your tank would crash, guaranteed.
The Mud, amphipods and NSW I sometimes add to my tank is for water quality. It doesn't work to good because my water quality sucks.
You need to have an established tank, maybe after a crash or someone gave it to you or all your fish died. Then you buy a fish, any fish that is in reasonable health, not something that is in the process of having last rites.
Put the fish in the tank with no quarantine at all. No medications, no acclimation box, no observation tank. Just drip it or however you introduce fish quickly. All of those things stress fish and STRESS CAUSES ILLNESS
This is the part that is a struggle as a person that is new in the hobby with a new tank. My tank was started with dry rock, “live sand”, and fritz turbo start. I want to do what’s best for the fish, and I don’t like the idea of medicating without a reason, but clearly I don’t have a very mature tank. For now we’re going with observation to make sure we’re starting with healthy fish (or as healthy as we can reasonably figure they are without doing a medicated QT).
It also seems like the overwhelming majority advocate aggressive QT procedures to ensure a disease free tank and thus healthy fish. This makes it hard, as a newbie, to figure out the best option. I definitely appreciate all your posts, as it shows that there really are other valid options out there.
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Cruz, there are of course other options and I agree with you, a Noob will have problems no matter what they do or what system they use. It is not their fault, it is the fault of the finicky bacteria and viruses that keep each other in check. In the sea those things have been doing their own thing and keeping each of their numbers in check. But in a tank, they can't do a good job because we use dry rock or medicate. Medication always kills something and a lot of the stuff it kills is good stuff. Noob tanks are tough and I hesitate to give advice to Noobs because as I said, they will have problems no matter what.
But the systems can't really be mixed. We can feed what we consider good food but even that I will have a problem with because you can't feed quarantined fish live or even fresh foods. That is a paradox.
I think a Noob should start a tank whatever way he wants, quarantine a short time, maybe a week to observe the fish. Then add it with fresh, live or frozen foods that have living bacteria in it. Your fish will probably get sick. It is the nature of the beast. Fish, and us need to catch something to become immune from it. Just don't panic if you see some spots. Continue to feed those foods, especially live worms if you can get them and above all, don't medicate or dip. If the fish gets really sick, remove him to treat. He may live or die but eventually, if he lives he will become immune.
All your fish have parasites on them when you buy them no matter what the LFS says. All healthy, freshly collected fish have parasites and they help the fish stay immune.
Food and no stress is the biggest thing we can do to get our tank off to a healthy start. Medication, quarantine, flakes and pellets are very stressful to fish. They have amazing powers of recovery as long as we don't mess with them.
It's like in Washington's Day. We used to bleed sick people to try to cure them. Their problem was probably low blood pressure and bleeding just killed them so we figured we didn't remove enough blood. It's the same with fish. Dipping, prozapro, copper is all stressful as those things are poisons. Poisons are going to stress or kill a fish.
Yes, they will all not become immune and live forever, but as our tank matures and the bacteria, viruses and parasites become accustomed to each other and the fishes immune system learns how to react to them, the tank will be fine and stay immune.
But the systems can't really be mixed. We can feed what we consider good food but even that I will have a problem with because you can't feed quarantined fish live or even fresh foods. That is a paradox.
I think a Noob should start a tank whatever way he wants, quarantine a short time, maybe a week to observe the fish. Then add it with fresh, live or frozen foods that have living bacteria in it. Your fish will probably get sick. It is the nature of the beast. Fish, and us need to catch something to become immune from it. Just don't panic if you see some spots. Continue to feed those foods, especially live worms if you can get them and above all, don't medicate or dip. If the fish gets really sick, remove him to treat. He may live or die but eventually, if he lives he will become immune.
All your fish have parasites on them when you buy them no matter what the LFS says. All healthy, freshly collected fish have parasites and they help the fish stay immune.
Food and no stress is the biggest thing we can do to get our tank off to a healthy start. Medication, quarantine, flakes and pellets are very stressful to fish. They have amazing powers of recovery as long as we don't mess with them.
It's like in Washington's Day. We used to bleed sick people to try to cure them. Their problem was probably low blood pressure and bleeding just killed them so we figured we didn't remove enough blood. It's the same with fish. Dipping, prozapro, copper is all stressful as those things are poisons. Poisons are going to stress or kill a fish.
Yes, they will all not become immune and live forever, but as our tank matures and the bacteria, viruses and parasites become accustomed to each other and the fishes immune system learns how to react to them, the tank will be fine and stay immune.
