A few questions about running 2 tanks

[EFSleeper]

Let me start by saying sorry to the mod's if this is in the wrong place. i just figured since it's technically about filtration it would fit better here then another sub-forum. but feel free to move it if it is in the wrong location

Ok so I ran across a free 55 gallon the other day. Well the original thoughts was set it up freshwater but after I sat back and thought about it for a couple weeks I've changed my mind with it. So I have a few questions about it before I start doing this, mostly so I don't flood the room out trying to get it right. So I have a little eshopps sump under my reef tank, well it's not seeming to be enough to hold macro algae and my skimmer/return pump. Here is where my questions start because I've done a lot of reading on it the past couple days and never seen a full diy setup for it.So first is my tank isn't tapped and I'm using a 300 gallon per hour over flow box, should I upgrade to a bigger overflow? 2nd should this be hard plumbed from tank to sump to tank back to tank or just use the cheap rubber hose to connect it all together? 3rd Should I keep running my skimmer in my sump and then let the water flow through to the 55 gallon refugium, or just not run the skimmer at all? I've seen a lot of debates over that 3rd question and would like to hear from a few people who have had a huge refugium added in as to if the skimmer running should continue or let my macro's feed off all the skimmer catches. Below is a picture of how I have them setup and spaced out right now. It's about a 4-5 foot gap between the 2 tanks but honestly I think it looks better with the entertainment center in the middle then with the 2 tanks side by side. So please guys help me with this one because it's got me so confused just drawing it all out in my head that honestly I wouldn't know where to start. Also should I run sand and some rock rubble in the fug tank or just bare glass and pure feed marco's in it

 

[EFSleeper]

Come on guys I'm needing advise on this whole build

 

[Ron Reefman]

Alright, I have 2 systems and both of them have 2 tanks on them, does that qualify me? LOL! The DT system is a 180g sps & lps reef and a 70g anemone and no reef safe fish tank and they share a 120g sump/ refugium/DSB. The second system is a 55g local stock/QT and a 24g frag tank that share a 55g sump. Before you ask, I can separate the frag tank from the QT when it gets used as a QT.

Ok so I ran across a free 55 gallon the other day. Well the original thoughts was set it up freshwater but after I sat back and thought about it for a couple weeks I've changed my mind with it. So I have a few questions about it before I start doing this, mostly so I don't flood the room out trying to get it right. So I have a little eshopps sump under my reef tank, well it's not seeming to be enough to hold macro algae and my skimmer/return pump. Here is where my questions start because I've done a lot of reading on it the past couple days and never seen a full diy setup for it.So first is my tank isn't tapped and I'm using a 300 gallon per hour over flow box, should I upgrade to a bigger overflow? Is it your new 55g that has the HOB siphon? I think 300gph is OK, especially if the tank is going to be more of a display refugium rather than a reef. 2nd should this be hard plumbed from tank to sump to tank back to tank or just use the cheap rubber hose to connect it all together? Hard or soft, either will work... just don't go 'cheap'. BTW Good flex hose is just as expensive (maybe even more expensive) than PVC. 3rd Should I keep running my skimmer in my sump and then let the water flow through to the 55 gallon refugium, or just not run the skimmer at all?Why would you not run the skimmer at all? My suggestion is you run the reef water through the skimmer and not the refugium water. The fuge water will/may have pods in it that will be food for the reef and the skimmer may take them out. It's part of the advantage of having a fuge. My system feeds water into either end of my 8' sump/fuge. One end is a 40g fuge full of chaeto macro algae and then a 40g DSB (Deep Sand Bed) and then the sump return pump. Water goes to the other end of the sump and thru filter socks and a direct gravity feed from the 180g to the skimmer, then to the return pump. So water thruough the fuge and DSB never sees the skimmer and water through the filter socks and skimmer never sees the fuge or DSB (while in the sump/refugium) I've seen a lot of debates over that 3rd question and would like to hear from a few people who have had a huge refugium added in as to if the skimmer running should continue or let my macro's feed off all the skimmer catches. Below is a picture of how I have them setup and spaced out right now. It's about a 4-5 foot gap between the 2 tanks but honestly I think it looks better with the entertainment center in the middle then with the 2 tanks side by side. So please guys help me with this one because it's got me so confused just drawing it all out in my head that honestly I wouldn't know where to start. Also should I run sand and some rock rubble in the fug tank or just bare glass and pure feed macro's in it. You have 55g to play with, use it. I'd do a DSB (6" minimum, mine is 8"+) some LR and even a couple different kinds of macro algae. When I had my old system, I had a 75g DT and a 35g display refugium and a 50g sump. I had as much fun with the DR (Display Refugium) as I did with the reef tank. I can collect some things from the local waters and we go to the Keys to snorkel 3-5 times a year. So we are always bringing back, snails, hermit crabs, minthrax crabs, anemones, sea cucumbers, gorgonian soft corals, very limited zoas and palys, serpent stars...

Here is how the big system looked as a start up:


This is just before saltwater went in (it had run for several days with fresh water):


This is shortly after we moved the stuff from our old 75g DT into the new system about 4 years ago:


And this is how it looked 7 months ago before I switched to all led lighting:

 

[EFSleeper]

Wow that's a nice setup. But as for the skimmer I have been reading a lot on it and some say with a big disply fug there is no reason to run a skimmer others say keep the skimmer in the sump and let it run through it first. My 75 reef has the HOB overflow not the 55. I was thinking about drilling the 55 and running straight from the reef to the fug and a direct syphon down to my normal sump. But after seeing this I got a little more confused with the whole setup and now thinking direct sypon to my dump and pulling from my sump to the 55 across the room and putting an external pump meeting in the middle between them and running the beack out the 55 to the reef tank. If all works well I plan on upgrading my reef to a 125 using the 75 and the sump and the 55 staying the display fug just to add a little more to it. I do want to ask what is the reason behind all of the cut off valves on your setup. I've noticed a lot of people have them but I only have 1 on my system now and it's confusin enough trying to get it dialed in right

 

[OrionN]

I am quite sure what you are asking, but in system with multiple display tanks, the best way to set up is to plump it such that water go from sump to each of the DT and back to sump. Unless the DT is at various height, it is not possible for water to go from sump to DT1,DT2 then back to sump.

About what you want to so with the DT2 and the refugium in the sump, if you want to grow algae in the refugium or in the DT2, then do it. Circulation from sump to DT does not need to be really high. If you need increase flow in the DT, then just use PH in the tank. PH are a lot more effective in improve circulation, then increase flow from sump.

I hope this help. Your post is a little confusing, it is hard to decide what your question really is. Either that or I just did not spend the time reading your post more than 5 times.

 

[Ron Reefman]

Wow that's a nice setup. Thank you. It's a labor of love. But as for the skimmer I have been reading a lot on it and some say with a big disply fug there is no reason to run a skimmer others say keep the skimmer in the sump and let it run through it first. There's plenty of reason to keep a skimmer in the system, IMHO. I have a pretty big fuge, about 12% of my total system, and if you consider the DSB too, it's 23%, and yet my skimmer pulls lots of stuff out of the water. I can't imagine not running a skimmer. On the other hand, if you skim the water and then run it to the fuge, you have probably pulled out some of the things you could be feeding the fuge. And then you run it through the fuge and may add 'stuff' back in. Doing the fuge first and then skimming pull out stuff from the fuge you want in the DT. That's why I keep them separate. And for the record, other than filter socks and lots of Live Rock, I don't run any other filtration. No GFO reactor, no activated carbon reactor, no UV sterilizer. My 75 reef has the HOB overflow not the 55. I was thinking about drilling the 55 and running straight from the reef to the fug and a direct syphon down to my normal sump. But after seeing this I got a little more confused with the whole setup and now thinking direct sypon to my dump and pulling from my sump to the 55 across the room and putting an external pump meeting in the middle between them and running the beack out the 55 to the reef tank. If all works well I plan on upgrading my reef to a 125 using the 75 and the sump and the 55 staying the display fug just to add a little more to it. Be very careful if you do a loop (DT to fuge to sump to DT). It's difficult to keep it all balanced flow. Your entire systems flow will be detirmined by the slowest section. And you want more flow in the DT than in the fuge, but you can make that up with power heads or wave makers in the DT. I treat the two tanks as individuals and they share the sump. That way I don't have to balance the flow, they both run at their own flow. I do want to ask what is the reason behind all of the cut off valves on your setup. I've noticed a lot of people have them but I only have 1 on my system now and it's confusin enough trying to get it dialed in right. I'll admit I have a few more than I need, but I was very unsure of the flow at the top of the tank through the Ocean Motion 4 way Closed Loop. So I put valve there as a 'just in case' and I really don't need them. Down below the valves all controll flow from the Sump return pump. Water from that pump goes directly to the tank, to the chiller and then to the tank (BTW, the chiller is outside to the right end of the photo), to a drain (for helping with water changes, and to reactors (should I ever need one).

 

[OrionN]

....Be very careful if you do a loop (DT to fuge to sump to DT). It's difficult to keep it all balanced flow.....

You cannot do this type of loop or DT1 to DT2 to sump unless the DT(DT1) and fuge(DT2) are of different level and the water flow from higher to lower. Basically you cannot have a pump send water in and another pump send water out. The flow rate will not be the same and either the water empty out in that tank, or overflow.
The main principel is that you pump the water in the tank then it overflow and run out. The faster, or slower, the water get pump in the faster, or slower, the water run out. This you cannot violate, it will not work.

In your case, you just have to have two overflow one from each tank. From your sump, you can either use 2 pumps or 1 pump 'T' off to two and run each into each of your tanks. I hope this make sense

 

[Ron Reefman]

[/COLOR]
You cannot do this type of loop or DT1 to DT2 to sump unless the DT(DT1) and fuge(DT2) are of different level and the water flow from higher to lower. Basically you cannot have a pump send water in and another pump send water out. The flow rate will not be the same and either the water empty out in that tank, or overflow.
The main principel is that you pump the water in the tank then it overflow and run out. The faster, or slower, the water get pump in the faster, or slower, the water run out. This you cannot violate, it will not work.

In your case, you just have to have two overflow one from each tank. From your sump, you can either use 2 pumps or 1 pump 'T' off to two and run each into each of your tanks. I hope this make sense

You are exactly right. You can do the loop, but it's a huge headache and in constant need of adjustment. I used 2 pumps at first on my 2 DT systems. But now I use 1 bigger pump and run both DT and other 'stuff' (chiller, reactor, skimmer, whatever) off a manifold with ball valves. BTW, gate valves would give better control, buy finding gate valves with union ends isn't easy and they are way more expensive. They aren't HD or Lowes type products.

 

[totion]

My system is not very large, about 50 gallons total, but I started with a 2 gallon display and added a 15 gallon sump. The sump has filter socks for the water coming in from the overflow, and a skimmer in the first chamber. Then I have the bubble trap baffles, an open chamber, another baffle, and a return chamber.

I recently built a 10 gallon frag tank that sits on a matching stand I built next to my display. I drilled it for an overflow and loc line return. I ran the overflow tubing into my first chamber of my sump, and added a return pump in the big chamber (return chamber was only big enough for the one pump). The only thing I'm worried about right now is flooding my sump if the power goes out, so I'm thinking about adding a check valve as close as possible to the smaller return pump. It is a mag 3 dialed back with a ball valve.

Not sure if that helps ya but that's how my system is layed out.

 

[OrionN]

totion,
I would not use check valves. I would drill some holes into the return line, just above the water line, so that it break suction and stop the water from flow back ward. I would drill at least two so that if a snail happen to sit on top of one, it still works. The sump should have enough capacity to handle all the water overflow back into the sump when the power go out. I would never ever rely on a check valve to keep my system from flooding the floor.

 

[c_healy]

Siphon breaks are crucial. I have mine drilled just below the water line maybe a 1/16 of an inch. There is one on the front and another on the back of the return nozzle.

Less likely to have a blockage with them on opposite sides.

 

[totion]

i have a siphone break in the return of my display, but not really a good spot to put one on the locline. its oinly 1/2 inch loc line and it wouldn;t make that much difference on a 10 gallon. on my display its a utube style outflow, so i was able to drill right below the water line on it to create an effective siphon break.

 

[OrionN]

If the locline come in under water, you can drill right on top of the locline near the glass. If it come in above the water line, just drill it like any other pipe. I put it right at the bottom of the locline near the glass. You can also position the nozzle at the water level this help with surface aeration and acts as siphon break.