A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

[FlyPenFly]

I don't think the cichlid comparison is really relevant to the saltwater hobby. All you need to breed them is a tank to put the babies in. This consistent over the course of years breeding of cichlids with mostly very relaxed to non-existent quarantine and disease management is what led to the bloat building a resistance by the same strain being exposed to treatment over the course of many generations. That is never going to happen in the saltwater hobby at least not in that scale, Most captive bred saltwater fish have to be bred in a lab grade environment with very strict prevention and disease/parasite management/eradication procedures to be successful. Even clownfish arguably one of the easiest to breed when done commercially still have these procedures. We will always find different strains of ich/brook/velvet etc, that are more/less resistant to various treatments simply because the ocean is vast and new organisms and variations of organisms are discovered every day. Prophylactic treatment and proper quarantine Should be the gold standard aspired too for any serious hobbyist, Allowing these parasites/diseases into your system will put you one stress event away from many more fish fatalities than you would have had otherwise. There's a youtube aquarium channel where the person that makes videos and gives advice has killed alot of expensive fish with ich, once I could forgive but they didn't learn and did it more times, and is still doing it. I often wonder how many more fish he has killed with his viewers following his example...

It’s not about captive bred fish... it’s about wiping out only 90% of a disease leaves the hardiest most resistant parasites alive. Kind of like people who don’t take the full course of antibiotics you’re only encouraging the rise of highly resistant diseases.

 

[bluprntguy]

Great article.

When I restarted my tank after a few years out of the hobby, I decided to do the tank transfer method for all incoming fish instead of prophylactic treatment. That allowed me to be confident that they didn't have ich and gave me some time to observe for other things. The tank has been up for a few months and everyone seems healthy. I also quaratine all inverts in a separate system for at least a month, and preferably two in order to avoid accidentally transferring something in.

 

[WMR]

Very nice article. When I was in the business, the fish would come in with all kinds of “ junk”, ich, brook, velvet, etc. As I recall, flukes didn’t start coming on fish til late 90’s- early 2000’s, maybe sooner. They would have cloudy eyes, fins, they would flash, breathe heavily. We had a lot of marine systems up for fish & inverts. We had fw systems set up directly across from the sw systems, if any fish came looking out of the norm, we put them in the fw system. You could literally watch the flukes drop off them. We would monitor them in the fw to make sure they were ok, if they appeared to go into shock, we would put them in the second system. We also ran uv sterilizers on our fish systems & have a therapeutic level of copper in them too. But, we also did water changes weekly on our systems. That was our qt procedure for the fish. My wife’s a nurse, she tells me when our “bugs” get resistant to the meds, same go for fish

 

[Brew12]

I don't think the cichlid comparison is really relevant to the saltwater hobby. All you need to breed them is a tank to put the babies in. This consistent over the course of years breeding of cichlids with mostly very relaxed to non-existent quarantine and disease management is what led to the bloat building a resistance by the same strain being exposed to treatment over the course of many generations. That is never going to happen in the saltwater hobby at least not in that scale,

How is this any different than parasite strains being exposed to treatments over and over again at wholesalers as the fish pass through the system? There are wholesalers who have run copper in their systems for years which would be thousands of generations of parasites. These fish exposed to these parasites then get shipped to LFS's and hobbyists all over the country. I would argue the likelyhood of a parasite developing a resistance has more to do with the conditions the parasite is exposed to than where the fish is bred.

Prophylactic treatment and proper quarantine Should be the gold standard aspired too for any serious hobbyist

I wouldn't call any process which exposes fish to substances known to be harmful to them to be a gold standard. And yes, we know both copper and CP cause damage to the fish we are treating. It is up for debate just how much damage a 10 day or 30 day treatment in copper does and how long that it lasts, but it does happen.
It is my understanding that none of the larger public aquariums in Europe use prophylactic treatments and have relatively low mortality rates. The Seattle Aquarium stopped prophylactic treatments and saw their total mortality rate drop for at least the first few years. I haven't seen any recent numbers to know if that trend has continued.

Allowing these parasites/diseases into your system will put you one stress event away from many more fish fatalities than you would have had otherwise. There's a youtube aquarium channel where the person that makes videos and gives advice has killed alot of expensive fish with ich, once I could forgive but they didn't learn and did it more times, and is still doing it. I often wonder how many more fish he has killed with his viewers following his example...

I don't know anyone that has quarantined large numbers of fish without experiencing significant deaths. It isn't only those who don't QT that have this issue. I have yet to talk to anyone who does a comprehensive prophylactic treatment that has over a 50% success rate on Anthias for example.

 

[Orcus Varuna]

I have also encountered some very virulent strains of velvet in particular. Including one that wiped out an entire system literally overnight. I saved 2 out of 8 fish by emergency dipping and treating with formalin. The two fish survived and are going on two years since the outbreak but the treatment had lasting impacts including stunted growth. The worst problems I have had though are with internal parasites. The amount of fish I have gotten over the past 2-3 years that just won’t eat, or eat minimally, slowly starving themselves to death is outrageous. Previously general cure followed by 2-4 weeks of food soaked in metroplex, epsom salt and focus or nls hex shield would do the trick, but this is no longer the case...

 

[Brew12]

General Cure, Metroplex and Kanaplex are no longer an option in Canada. All antibiotics for use in the aquarium hobby now require a veterinarians prescription there. It's only a matter of time before that ban happens in the US.
This is one major reason why I feel we hobbyists need to work hard to help each other find methods to keep our fish healthy without relying on medications. Hopefully our friends in Europe can lead the way on this since they have had very limited medication options for years. The more information we can share on what works and what doesn't the better imo.

It may take an antibiotic ban in the US to finally get our wholesalers to clean up their systems but I'm not counting on that.

 

[Lukas75]

Thank you for the article, very well thought out and very well written! All we need to do to know what can come is to look at MRSA, antibiotic resistant gonorea, etc. to know that this is 100% accurate. God help us all if the plague (which is still out there) goes antibiotic resistant.

I'm not so sure though about prophylactic treating unless we are not the end home for the fish. The resistant strains and the threats caused by these resistant strains come before they reach our aquariums. Lowered salinity, low levels of copper, etc. These practices, while designed to increase the survival rate of the fish, are an exercise in how to create resistant strains of pathogens. That having been said wiping out the weaker strain on the fish by treating prophylactically may allow the more resistant strain to take over and make our jobs harder. So I just contradicted myself.

 

[Brew12]

Thank you for the article, very well thought out and very well written! All we need to do to know what can come is to look at MRSA, antibiotic resistant gonorea, etc. to know that this is 100% accurate. God help us all if the plague (which is still out there) goes antibiotic resistant.

I'm not so sure though about prophylactic treating unless we are not the end home for the fish. The resistant strains and the threats caused by these resistant strains come before they reach our aquariums. Lowered salinity, low levels of copper, etc. These practices, while designed to increase the survival rate of the fish, are an exercise in how to create resistant strains of pathogens. That having been said wiping out the weaker strain on the fish by treating prophylactically may allow the more resistant strain to take over and make our jobs harder. So I just contradicted myself.

I do agree that for some hobbyists it is unlikely that they will contribute to resistant strains. I could be wrong, but I don't feel most hobbyists are actually the "end home" from a parasite/bacteria perspective. Many of us participate in frag swaps, or give/sell frags from our system. Some LFS's will accept fish or coral for store credit which has the potential to move these parasites higher up in the supply chain.
What could be very scary is for those who live close to warmer oceans like southern Florida. I have to believe it is possible a resistant strain of a pathogen could make its way back into the ocean through something as simple as a water change.

 

[Lukas75]

I do agree that for some hobbyists it is unlikely that they will contribute to resistant strains. I could be wrong, but I don't feel most hobbyists are actually the "end home" from a parasite/bacteria perspective. Many of us participate in frag swaps, or give/sell frags from our system. Some LFS's will accept fish or coral for store credit which has the potential to move these parasites higher up in the supply chain.
What could be very scary is for those who live close to warmer oceans like southern Florida. I have to believe it is possible a resistant strain of a pathogen could make its way back into the ocean through something as simple as a water change.

I hadn't considered that. You bring up an excellent point.

 

[nereefpat]

Some interesting thoughts here, for sure.

I think we should be careful about how we use certain terms. Quarantine doesn't necessarily mean treating with copper and abx. Quarantine means keeping new fishes separate from your display. Not using chemicals prophylactically is not the same thing as not quarantining. You may be able to deal with ich in your display, but you do not want velvet or Uronema in there.

Observation for a couple weeks can save you from a tank wipeout due to velvet or U. a. Tank transfer method is another treatment option that works well for ich, and it doesn't use any meds.

Edit: U. m.

 

[Brew12]

Some interesting thoughts here, for sure.

I think we should be careful about how we use certain terms. Quarantine doesn't necessarily mean treating with copper and abx. Quarantine means keeping new fishes separate from your display. Not using chemicals prophylactically is not the same thing as not quarantining. You may be able to deal with ich in your display, but you do not want velvet or Uronema in there.

Observation for a couple weeks can save you from a tank wipeout due to velvet or U. a. Tank transfer method is another treatment option that works well for ich, and it doesn't use any meds.

Edit: U. m.

Very true. After the fact I thought I should have made the title "A Hypocrites View on Prophylactic Treatment". It would have been more accurate to the content of the article.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

It has been years since I have been into a fish and invert wholesale facility. But I have noticed that the disease complaints seem to have increased since the "old guard" have retired and the mass merchandising pet companies have bought out the major players in the distribution chain. Then there was the death of the local aquarium store brought on by the internet. This increased the leverage for the mass merchant and internet sellers thus changing the market channel and not for the better. Correlation or causation you decide.

The older companies (pre-mass merchant owners) did an excellent job at providing great quality livestock for the hobby. I just think the new corporate owners did not and still do not have a clue how to manage the distribution of livestock. The new owners have changed system design and seem to have employed people with less experience at a lower cost per hour. Let's face it Walmart type practices do not lead to highly skilled employees.

Also during that time frame you had an increase in farmed fish entering the distribution system. Then there was the advent of designer fish which are genetic mutations caused by successive cross breeding which may be a possible gate way to increased disease. They have no immunity in the natural environment since they have for several generations only been exposed to lab grade breeding facilities. It would not suprise me if these were possible disease vectors that have helped increase the as yet unproven resistant forms of disease. Again is that correlation or causation? How much has this contributed to the current state of the distribution system? No one knows or has even researched the question.

This in my opinion are some of the possible problems of fish health in the pet sector in the U.S. today. In Thailand where poor water quality is a fact the fish seemed healthy in every tank and bag at the largest indoor/outdoor fish and invert market in the world. You had dozens of merchants each with their own ways of dealing with fish and yet the quality seemed on the surface to be some what consistant. Drugs are very cheap there by U.S. standards and no scrip is needed so is that their go to method? If so there is another possible link in drug resistance. Given the wide range of sellers all the way from collector to breeder it is hard to say if they would even use drugs due to the cost relative to their incomes.

 

[WVNed]

IMHO there is no way to keep the world out of your tank if you put certain things in it. How would you get snails, anemones or a whole host of other things to expel all of the water contained within them. Does that water contain bad things. I don't know but I suspect it does. What about a porous rock? All of the diseases occur in nature. The fish we get have survived them before. If I put them in a healthy environment I think I can expect them to continue to do so. So far they have.
I don't keep my tank separate from the industry or the ocean. I tend to add the water the fish come in, no matter where from to my tank.
I think if you want the good you will have to take some of the bad. So far water from both facilities of LA, GARF, Saltwaterfish.com, 3 Petcos, 3 LFS, Reeftown and Gulf Coast Ecosystems has gone into my tank. I am sure I am forgetting some places I have got stuff over the past decade.
No disease outbreaks. I am sure they are in my tank.

I don't do any of the stuff PaulB does either. It's not available to me. I wish it was. I may try the worms someday.

I have been keeping fish for a long time. All pet suppliers have death. They may be extra good at removing it so you don't see it but it is there.
I will buy a fish that is thin or has fin damage over one that is sitting in the corner with clamped fins and isn't seeking food even if it looks perfect.
If I see a fish I want I go back and buy it 2 or 3 days later to make sure it looks the same. If it is gone I go back to looking. I tend to look for fish that will fit a particular niche in my tank over a certain kind or color. I feel this give me a better chance to get a healthy fish. If I want a particular kind it may be a long search. I wouldn't buy rotten tomatoes just because I want one in my salad. I get avocado instead.
I look for food seeking behavior that is normal for the fish I am buying. Sand sifting, rock cleaning or bouncing in the flow catching tiny things. I know there is plenty to eat in my tank.
I dont push the bioload to the max. That is why my tank survived having no power for 10 hours recently without problems.

 

[FlyPenFly]

I wouldn’t add water from a pet store of any kind because I keep coral and many of them have copper.

 

[Brew12]

I wouldn’t add water from a pet store of any kind because I keep coral and many of them have copper.

It's a real problem. I've killed a school of firefish by adding Prime to their shipping water. I had no idea they were in copper treated water.

 

[FlyPenFly]

It's a real problem. I've killed a school of firefish by adding Prime to their shipping water. I had no idea they were in copper treated water.

Yikes didn't even think about that.

 

[Lasse]

Thank you for a good write up @Brew12 . It could not be a surprise for anyone that I have the same standpoint as you according to prophylactic treatment. This morning - before I read your article - I read two treads that got me wonder if not the prophylactic methods kill more fish than the real diseases does?

Let us first state – I am not against an observing QT – not at all – many times it could be very important to run a observing QT and treat only if signs of diseases show up. So, let us leave that type of argues – it is true that I do not use QT in my tank, but I have a strict way of acclimating my fishes in my refugium. The reason why I do not even use an observing QT is that I have a mature reef with many hungry mouths.

I have – in the past, bread a grow many of the most aggressive African Cichlid species that exist and one thing I learned when I did that was that if I want to introduce new fishes to my aquaria – keeping them in the same water as the DT (or in the last weeks before introduce them from another aquaria doing daily WC with the DT water) . I did this out of sight for the DT inhabitants but when I introduce the newcomers – it was very seldom fighting at all. The only reason for this – IMO – is that they through the WC got the same smell.

I was among the first people to develop a strategy into use of metradizonole in order to fight African bloat. My first experiments were done around 1977 and soon it become a standard treatment method for this disease in Sweden. However – I did never use it as a prophylactic. Around 1983 – the first examples of African Bloat that could not be treat by metradizonole appear. It was mainly grazers (algae eaters) that was attacked by these flagellates and when people change the feeding regime to algae food – much of the problems disappear. By the way – metradizonole is a lipophilic drug – this means that it will move itself into fat – and even if it can´t be dissolved in water – it will enter the fish bloodstream through the gills and even through the skin. And it will bioaccumulate – it means – even if the concentration in the water is low – it will be much more concentrated in the fish. And – according to saltwater fish – they drink and you will have a double pathway into the fish – oral and through the tissues. The lipophilic properties will also make the degradation and excretion problematic and it will go by the MFO system. The fact that SW fish do not pee very much will not get the excretion better. IMO – the normal recommend acute dosage for both metradizonole, chloroquine phosphate, and praziquantel (all strongly lipophilic) is way to high for SW fishes.


Sincerely Lasse

 

[Thaxxx]

The same thing happens in the chemical side of pest control. Insects become immune to chemicals after years of use in the industry. They are constantly trying to stay ahead of it.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Thank you for a good write up @Brew12 . It could not be a surprise for anyone that I have the same standpoint as you according to prophylactic treatment. This morning - before I read your article - I read two treads that got me wonder if not the prophylactic methods kill more fish than the real diseases does?

Let us first state – I am not against an observing QT – not at all – many times it could be very important to run a observing QT and treat only if signs of diseases show up. So, let us leave that type of argues – it is true that I do not use QT in my tank, but I have a strict way of acclimating my fishes in my refugium. The reason why I do not even use an observing QT is that I have a mature reef with many hungry mouths.

I have – in the past, bread a grow many of the most aggressive African Cichlid species that exist and one thing I learned when I did that was that if I want to introduce new fishes to my aquaria – keeping them in the same water as the DT (or in the last weeks before introduce them from another aquaria doing daily WC with the DT water) . I did this out of sight for the DT inhabitants but when I introduce the newcomers – it was very seldom fighting at all. The only reason for this – IMO – is that they through the WC got the same smell.

I was among the first people to develop a strategy into use of metradizonole in order to fight African bloat. My first experiments were done around 1977 and soon it become a standard treatment method for this disease in Sweden. However – I did never use it as a prophylactic. Around 1983 – the first examples of African Bloat that could not be treat by metradizonole appear. It was mainly grazers (algae eaters) that was attacked by these flagellates and when people change the feeding regime to algae food – much of the problems disappear. By the way – metradizonole is a lipophilic drug – this means that it will move itself into fat – and even if it can´t be dissolved in water – it will enter the fish bloodstream through the gills and even through the skin. And it will bioaccumulate – it means – even if the concentration in the water is low – it will be much more concentrated in the fish. And – according to saltwater fish – they drink and you will have a double pathway into the fish – oral and through the tissues. The lipophilic properties will also make the degradation and excretion problematic and it will go by the MFO system. The fact that SW fish do not pee very much will not get the excretion better. IMO – the normal recommend acute dosage for both metradizonole, chloroquine phosphate, and praziquantel (all strongly lipophilic) is way to high for SW fishes.


Sincerely Lasse

Same for NFG?

 

[Indytraveler83]

I’m curious as to if any of you find that using the same lfs or supplier helps?

At least in my freshwater experience, quarantine is effective, but has rarely been needed if I stick to the same supplier. When I break down and buy from someone else, it seems like disease that the purchased fish are resistant to, but may be carriers of can ravage the DT, even after a proper quarantine. Or the opposite is true, and they get sick from something in the DT that the current residents are already resistant to.

Can the same be said of saltwater, or does collection from the wild nullify this effect?