A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

[Brew12]

you're correct if you take those parasites out of a tank - if the fish are exposed again years later - they may have significant problems.

The more I research, the more I wish I was a marine biologist! As @MnFish1 posted I have always thought that a few years without exposure pretty much meant the fish would have no innate immunity left.

you also create a sterile fish (there will be no microbes left in the mucus or gut at all) IMO.

Now, I'm finding more and more studies that show specific prebiotics and probiotics can have a direct impact on the fishes ability to combat parasites. I've always known gut bacteria were important but I am fascinated by the concept that a food manufacturer could add a prebiotic that would boost a fishes immune system specifically against CI. A different prebiotic could be used to combat brook. My mind is blown...

Unfortunately, it is so much information I'm having a hard time organizing it in a meaningful way. Can't wrap my head around it all yet.

 

[MnFish1]

The more I research, the more I wish I was a marine biologist! As @MnFish1 posted I have always thought that a few years without exposure pretty much meant the fish would have no innate immunity left.



Now, I'm finding more and more studies that show specific prebiotics and probiotics can have a direct impact on the fishes ability to combat parasites. I've always known gut bacteria were important but I am fascinated by the concept that a food manufacturer could add a prebiotic that would boost a fishes immune system specifically against CI. A different prebiotic could be used to combat brook. My mind is blown...

Unfortunately, it is so much information I'm having a hard time organizing it in a meaningful way. Can't wrap my head around it all yet.

@Brew12 - the fish will still have its 'innate immunity' - it MAY lose some or all of its 'specific immunity' against whatever parasites/disease has been removed.

 

[Brew12]

@Brew12 - the fish will still have its 'innate immunity' - it MAY lose some or all of its 'specific immunity' against whatever parasites/disease has been removed.

Right, but what would you call an immune response to a specific parasite based on a prebiotic in the fishes gut? Typically the innate immunity isn't parasite specific. The adaptive immunity can fade after 6 months. This doesn't seem to fit into either category.

 

[MnFish1]

Right, but what would you call an immune response to a specific parasite based on a prebiotic in the fishes gut? Typically the innate immunity isn't parasite specific. The adaptive immunity can fade after 6 months. This doesn't seem to fit into either category.

Im not sure there is such a thing as a prebiotic thats species specific (unless it perhaps contains particles of that parasite - that would make it specific). I have seen some studies that suggest that these can be used - but I have not seen they are specific...?

 

[Brew12]

Im not sure there is such a thing as a prebiotic thats species specific (unless it perhaps contains particles of that parasite - that would make it specific). I have seen some studies that suggest that these can be used - but I have not seen they are specific...?

It's about clear as mud to me right now... which is why I wish I was a marine biologist. This might make more sense. Some of the science is above my pay grade.
This one is still under review but if I understand it correctly the prebiotics boost the innate response instead of work in addition to it.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Holistic methods of treatment are making a come back in all areas of medicine. It is sometimes hard to determine the efficacy of many of the claims of healing due to such haphazard documentation. This is an area of concern for us. We need the science to back up our observations or gut feelings. I hope this will come to the forefront as we continue the hobby.

It is important to note the growing body of evidence and science that supports less chemical and antibiotic methods.

 

[MnFish1]

It's about clear as mud to me right now... which is why I wish I was a marine biologist. This might make more sense. Some of the science is above my pay grade.
This one is still under review but if I understand it correctly the prebiotics boost the innate response instead of work in addition to it.

Its above my pay grade as well - but yes - it does boost the innate immune system. But that is not 'specific' - it would/should make the fish less susceptible to ALL invaders - Not just one (you were talking about giving one specific pre-biotic to help against CI, and a different one for velvet as a concept.) - I just wasn't sure that the article suggested that.

 

[Brew12]

Its above my pay grade as well - but yes - it does boost the innate immune system. But that is not 'specific' - it would/should make the fish less susceptible to ALL invaders - Not just one (you were talking about giving one specific pre-biotic to help against CI, and a different one for velvet as a concept.) - I just wasn't sure that the article suggested that.

It was a different study that showed the connection between specific prebiotics and parasites. The one I linked seem to contradict it and was newer. Haven't had a chance to go back through and dig the older one up again to see if I read it a different way now.

 

[Lasse]

Here is a link with a review of Impact and control of protozoan parasites in maricultured fishes. It includes many of the parasites we deal with. And here is an article according to garlic and Diplomona parasites. Showing some effect in this in vitro studies higher doses but they doubt that the normal dose aquarist use (1 -2 % of the food) could effect the growth of just this Diplomona parasite - Spironucleus vortens. However - they did nor exclude that higher doses or purified thiosulfinates coluld work. However - there is for the moment not known with concentrations will affect the parasite and not the fish. Article from 2010

Here is one about herbs

Sincerely Lasse

 

[HomeSlizzice]

So I can confirm that another California wholesaler runs copper.

ERI runs their fish systems at S.G. 1.018 and runs copper sulfate.

 

[HomeSlizzice]

So that makes for 2 of some of the largest fish wholesalers in the united states (SDC & ERI) running copper and a low salinity (1.018-1.020) level in their tanks.

Granted both are for the most part great wholesalers and good sources of fish. People should keep in mind at the very least the low salinity levels that these wholesalers are using. Goes to show that either using a QT/acclimation tank at s.g. 1.018-1.020 to start and then raise the salinity level to that of your reef or a long drip acclimation if adding directly to your tank is probably important. If ammonia poisoning is a concern then having a bucket of salt water at the lower salinity (s.g. 1.018-1.020) ready to immediately transfer the fish into, and then drip acclimate from there is probably a good practice.

 

[MnFish1]

So that makes for 2 of some of the largest fish wholesalers in the united states (SDC & ERI) running copper and a low salinity (1.018-1.020) level in their tanks.

Granted both are for the most part great wholesalers and good sources of fish. People should keep in mind at the very least the low salinity levels that these wholesalers are using. Goes to show that either using a QT/acclimation tank at s.g. 1.018-1.020 to start and then raise the salinity level to that of your reef or a long drip acclimation if adding directly to your tank is probably important. If ammonia poisoning is a concern then having a bucket of salt water at the lower salinity (s.g. 1.018-1.020) ready to immediately transfer the fish into, and then drip acclimate from there is probably a good practice.

Thanks for looking this up. The question is - is it 'low dose copper' or 'therapeutic copper'

 

[HomeSlizzice]

Thanks for looking this up. The question is - is it 'low dose copper' or 'therapeutic copper'

ERI told me they use a "Copper Sulfate that they make at a level of 100." So I'm assuming 100ppm? Or 1.00ppm? I didn't ask for more detail.

Feel free to call them up and ask away. Most wholesalers will tell you if you ask.

 

[MnFish1]

ERI told me they use a "Copper Sulfate that they make at a level of 100." So I'm assuming 100ppm? Or 1.00ppm? I didn't ask for more detail.

Feel free to call them up and ask away. Most wholesalers will tell you if you ask.

Thanks can you tell me - what does ERI stand for? never mind got it

 

[MnFish1]

So I can confirm that another California wholesaler runs copper.

ERI runs their fish systems at S.G. 1.018 and runs copper sulfate.

Very very interesting phone call...

The theraputic dose of copper using their test is 150 (HacH) - they aim to keep their tanks at 100 (so a bit sub therapeutic). Any fish that comes in 'sick' goes to a separate 'hospital system'. The main system also has a SG (as you said) of 1.019 or so.

They do 2 separate formalin and malachite green treatments before any fish is shipped.

They do not ship their fish with Copper in the bag.

They also have 6 separate holding systems - and sterilize (with chlorine) them every 2 months (I assume on a staggered basis).

 

[HomeSlizzice]

Very very interesting phone call...

The theraputic dose of copper using their test is 150 (HacH) - they aim to keep their tanks at 100 (so a bit sub therapeutic). Any fish that comes in 'sick' goes to a separate 'hospital system'. The main system also has a SG (as you said) of 1.019 or so.

They do 2 separate formalin and malachite green treatments before any fish is shipped.

They do not ship their fish with Copper in the bag.

They also have 6 separate holding systems - and sterilize (with chlorine) them every 2 months (I assume on a staggered basis).

Wow! Great work getting all that information. I'm glad you called. TBH I'm a noob when it comes to copper levels, so thank you.

Not that you need more homework... but I would be curious what information you could get by also calling a few of the other major wholesalers. Sea Dwelling Creatures, and Quality Marine being the priority. Between them and ERI, we would have information on essentially the 3 largest fish wholesalers in the US.

 

[MnFish1]

Wow! Great work getting all that information. I'm glad you called. TBH I'm a noob when it comes to copper levels, so thank you.

Not that you need more homework... but I would be curious what information you could get by also calling a few of the other major wholesalers. Sea Dwelling Creatures, and Quality Marine being the priority. Between them and ERI, we would have information on essentially the 3 largest fish wholesalers in the US.

Plus if CI develops in one of their systems - they also have a mitigation plan increased temp etc that they think resolves it..

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Plus if CI develops in one of their systems - they also have a mitigation plan increased temp etc that they think resolves it..

That is interesting. I have heard that higher temps are used as a remedy f0r fresh water white spot but I haven't seen anything saying that it works for crypto (which is a different parasite). I do keep my tank at a higher than normal temperature (28 degrees C). But I don't do it to stop crypto, I do it to save money on my chiller bill

 

[Lasse]

Everyone advocating for chemo prophylactic QT should read this article in detail

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Mortie31]

Everyone advocating for chemo prophylactic QT should read this article in detail

Sincerely Lasse

Interesting paper @Lasse, what surprised me was how little (25%) of antibiotics mixed into food were actually absorbed by the fish, the rest being excreted into the environment and also how quickly the normal microbiota were altered/ out competed in a negative way allowing some species of Aeromonas to proliferate and that these are common pathogens usually harmful to fish.. (if I’ve understood this correctly)