A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

[MnFish1]

Yes, though azole antifungals (or antimycotics) would be more appropriate Again, antibiotics is sometimes used to describe all antimicrobials, though is not preferred.

I wonder - on a 'friendly forum' such as this - why are people parsing words as if calling something an antibiotic vs an anti fungal - when there is little difference to the original post - means anything except that the person making the distinction is trying to make a fuss about nothing?

 

[Lasse]

I think you got the wrong impression from my post. This was the entire section.

Maybe they are out there, but my observations have led me to believe that Europeans in general stock their tanks at more reasonable levels. I haven't seen pictures of a 6' tank with 7 to 10 tangs as you see in the US. They could be out there, but if they are I haven't been exposed to them. I do understand that tangs are very common in Europe. It also seems like the Tang police are less active and Europeans are less "shamed" at keeping tangs in smaller systems.

OK - I got it - Love, Peace and missunderstanding

Sincerely Lasse

 

[drstardust]

I wonder - on a 'friendly forum' such as this - why are people parsing words as if calling something an antibiotic vs an anti fungal - when there is little difference to the original post - means anything except that the person making the distinction is trying to make a fuss about nothing?

It does mean absolutely nothing to the original post, you are right. I was just answering what I felt to be a genuine question of clarification rather than a snarky comment. Maybe it was, though, hard to judge someone's tone through computer text. In any case, agreed, let's move on.

 

[MnFish1]

It does mean absolutely nothing to the original post, you are right. I was just answering what I felt to be a genuine question of clarification rather than a snarky comment. Maybe it was, though, hard to judge someone's tone through computer text. In any case, agreed, let's move on.

I wasnt talking about your post

 

[MnFish1]

Is fluconazole an antibiotic? I always thought it was an antifungal agent

I was talking about this one...

I wasnt talking about your post

 

[Cyricdark]

If you refer to the scientific studies show this or that – please attach the actual link – otherwise the statement is not worth anything. There is done very little of this – especially according to tomonts. I have not found anything that support me or you. I would love to read what you refer to. However I found this interesting thing from according velvet from this reference.



It happens to be that way that I have been working in public aquariums for more than 18 years and is well informed about the protocoll used in public aquariums in Sweden. The ban of using not frozen food is not because of fear for velvet or marine ich. It is other parasites that do not have dormant stages that´s of concern and there it is well known and documented that deep freezing is effective. About effectiviness against velvet or marine ich and especially their dormant stage nobody knows - so please link to your source that freezing food at -10 (what C or F ?) for 7 days destroy all stages of ich (saltwater ich)

Sincerely Lasse

I have to say I find the thought that anyone thinks that parasites can be in our frozen foods to be a little ridiculous. I don't have any actual empirical scientific evidence to back up anything I'm about to say so feel free to completely ignore it. We've been feeding frozen food in this hobby for about as long as there has been a hobby if there was any way that could possibly happen in any but the most infinitesimal chance of crazy circumstances at the manufacturing facility I think we would all know about it by now. I have never once heard anyone say that they got ich or velvet or any of those parasites from frozen food. Quite the opposite frozen food is considered to be the top of the line with varying qualities depending on brand. the studies people are quoting that are somewhat relevant to this discussion on that are talking about killing them by freezing them for a 24-hour time frame most of the time when we've received our Frozen Foods they've been frozen for months if not years. Also many frozen foods come from freshwater like mysis shrimp they can leave all the freshwater ich in frozen food that they want it's not going to affect my saltwater tank any other than maybe feeding a few corals. I really feel that the burden of proof in this instance is on people who are advocating that it is in the frozen food because mountains of anecdotal evidence and common sense say that it's not. In your original comment that even caused this whole diverting of the thread you stated that for dry Foods to be safe they would need to be gamma irradiated which is even more ridiculous. I have tremendous respect for you as a poster and helper of people on these forums you're very knowledgeable and most of what you say I do agree with in other threads but parasites in our Frozen or dry Foods is a little too far out there for me to believe.

 

[Cyricdark]

BTW - I think your comment in the context of what I said is somewhat snarky - which is fine with me. - it might not be the usual for this forum. You took one word out of a post - to criticize - ignoring the rest. But - In fact - Fluconazole is both an antibiotic, an anti fungal, an antimycotic and probably several other definitions. But what was your point actually?

I wasn't trying to be snarky at all I had just always thought the term antibiotic meant antibacterial apparently it doesn't now I know thank you

 

[MnFish1]

I wasn't trying to be snarky at all I had just always thought the term antibiotic meant antibacterial apparently it doesn't now I know thank you

Thanks - in the context of what I wrote - though I'm seriously curious - what was your point? The most minuscule point I could pick out of it was that fluconazole was not an antibiotic. I mean - except to criticise - why would you mention that? the point of the post was quite different - it was the use of medications (in general) that can effect human disease (the purpose of this thread - and why Canada is banning their use) - is being judged as harmful - and how can we 'get away' from that use?

 

[Cyricdark]

Thanks - in the context of what I wrote - though I'm seriously curious - what was your point? The most minuscule think I could pick out of it was that fluconazole was not an antibiotic. I mean - except to criticise - why would you mention that? the point of the post was quite different - it was the use of medications (in general) that can effect human disease (the purpose of this thread - and why Canada is banning their use) - is being judged as harmful - and how can we 'get away' from that use?

Well the point was if it's an antibacterial agent and an antifungal agent then I need to be much more careful in how I use it because it could conceivably interrupt a cycle and cause an ammonia boost since I figure you probably know what you're talkin about when you listed it together with a bunch of antibiotics that are antibacterial frankly it scared me a little and I wanted clarification

 

[MnFish1]

Well the point was if it's an antibacterial agent and an antifungal agent then I need to be much more careful in how I use it because it could conceivably interrupt a cycle and cause an ammonia boost since I figure you probably know what you're talkin about when you listed it together with a bunch of antibiotics that are antibacterial frankly it scared me a little and I wanted clarification

The key point I was trying to make is that - if 'medications' are going to be required for disease - fluconazole (for example) for algae control will be one of the first to go. Second - (or first) will be cipro for anemones - lastly will be the treatments for fish (again IMHO) - In other countries this has already happened.

I frankly agree with this - others may disagree - or have reasons to disagree. We should not be using human antibiotics, antifungals, anti protozoans routinely in QT or treatment without qualified diagnosis. All it would take is your grandmother/sister/daughter/son to develop a resistant infection to change your mind on this (IMHO). I would never use cipro to prophylactically treat an invertebrate (people disagree its just my opinion). Even If it is a small chance to induce resistance as compared to the use of cipro in chickens - in my home - I wouldn't use it. (what if I had a relative that has an infection with a multi resistant bacteria due to their use in my tank) - btw - this is not science fiction or unrealistic.

 

[Lasse]

I have to say I find the thought that anyone thinks that parasites can be in our frozen foods to be a little ridiculous. I don't have any actual empirical scientific evidence to back up anything I'm about to say so feel free to completely ignore it. We've been feeding frozen food in this hobby for about as long as there has been a hobby if there was any way that could possibly happen in any but the most infinitesimal chance of crazy circumstances at the manufacturing facility I think we would all know about it by now. I have never once heard anyone say that they got ich or velvet or any of those parasites from frozen food. Quite the opposite frozen food is considered to be the top of the line with varying qualities depending on brand. the studies people are quoting that are somewhat relevant to this discussion on that are talking about killing them by freezing them for a 24-hour time frame most of the time when we've received our Frozen Foods they've been frozen for months if not years. Also many frozen foods come from freshwater like mysis shrimp they can leave all the freshwater ich in frozen food that they want it's not going to affect my saltwater tank any other than maybe feeding a few corals. I really feel that the burden of proof in this instance is on people who are advocating that it is in the frozen food because mountains of anecdotal evidence and common sense say that it's not. In your original comment that even caused this whole diverting of the thread you stated that for dry Foods to be safe they would need to be gamma irradiated which is even more ridiculous. I have tremendous respect for you as a poster and helper of people on these forums you're very knowledgeable and most of what you say I do agree with in other threads but parasites in our Frozen or dry Foods is a little too far out there for me to believe.

Maybe it like to state that the fish never ever shown up any signs of diseases but neverless it brings ich to my system? I have not say that it is that way with frozen food - I have only say that we do not know for sure and if you run the hard core chemoprophylactic pathway - you must - in order to be safe - handle the food too. I agree with you that froozen food is the best ever (fresh is better) - in three years I have never ever feed with dry food at all - but I do not need to care because I don not try to have an sterile system.

I have never once heard anyone say that they got ich or velvet or any of those parasites from frozen food.

not me either but a lot of other fantastic speculations that been the real truth after some posts.

Also many frozen foods come from freshwater like mysis shrimp they can leave all the freshwater ich in frozen food that they want it's not going to affect my saltwater tank any other than maybe feeding a few corals.

there you have a point - I change my mind and make freshwater frozen food safe - but on the other hand - in Europe - mysis comes from saltwater - but never less - I get the point. However some bacteria as Vibrio can survive a long time in frozen food and in an sterile aquariums it could be a disaster.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Cyricdark]

The key point I was trying to make is that - if 'medications' are going to be required for disease - fluconazole (for example) for algae control will be one of the first to go. Second - (or first) will be cipro for anemones - lastly will be the treatments for fish (again IMHO) - In other countries this has already happened.

I frankly agree with this - others may disagree - or have reasons to disagree. We should not be using human antibiotics, antifungals, anti protozoans routinely in QT or treatment without qualified diagnosis. All it would take is your grandmother/sister/daughter/son to develop a resistant infection to change your mind on this (IMHO). I would never use cipro to prophylactically treat an invertebrate (people disagree its just my opinion). Even If it is a small chance to induce resistance as compared to the use of cipro in chickens - in my home - I wouldn't use it. (what if I had a relative that has an infection with a multi resistant bacteria due to their use in my tank) - btw - this is not science fiction or unrealistic.

Well I guess I would have to say that I strongly disagree with you with regards to fluconazole I think it's great for the hobby and I wish that we would have had it years ago. I have a small 20 gallon coral quarantine tank and fluconazole is very much a part of my preventive treatment to make sure that bryopsis and bubble algae don't make it into my main display. And I really don't see any danger inherent in using it I certainly don't believe it's going to lead to me or my family getting super ringworm or something down the road. I don't have ever run an ammonia Alert in that tank like I do in a fish quarantine tank so when you group that together with antibacterial antibiotics it made me wonder if maybe that occasional frag that didn't make it could have been due to an ammonia Spike from me putting a triple dose of fluconazole in to kill bubble algae. Which is why I wanted clarification sorry that it offended you.

 

[Cyricdark]

Maybe it like to state that the fish never ever shown up any signs of diseases but neverless it brings ich to my system? I have not say that it is that way with frozen food - I have only say that we do not know for sure and if you run the hard core chemoprophylactic pathway - you must - in order to be safe - handle the food too. I agree with you that froozen food is the best ever (fresh is better) - in three years I have never ever feed with dry food at all - but I do not need to care because I don not try to have an sterile system. not me either but a lot of other fantastic speculations that been the real truth after some posts. there you have a point - I change my mind and make freshwater frozen food safe - but on the other hand - in Europe - mysis comes from saltwater - but never less - I get the point. However some bacteria as Vibrio can survive a long time in frozen food and in an sterile aquariums it could be a disaster.

Sincerely Lasse

But I don't see anybody saying that they want a sterile Aquarium all me and other posters like me have really been saying is that we believe in keeping the big boys out of our tank, ich, velvet, uronema, brook , etc. Basically unwanted parasites I'm not worried about other pathogens or bacterias my tank is in my house I couldn't keep those kinds of things out of it if I wanted to that would require a lab and a clean room. I firmly believe that anyone that can keep those four out of their tank has a much much greater chance of long-term success in this Hobby then somebody who doesn't.

 

[bluprntguy]

However I found this interesting thing from according velvet from this reference.

The entirety of the article you quoted says: "Do not feed live or frozen food items that may be infected with amyloodinium." There is nothing in there about the temperatures that velvet is able to survive. This is just a random statement that the authors of the paper threw in and it means absolutely nothing.

This study on velvet found "Complete interruption of division and gradual mortality occurred at 8 degrees C"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6539091

Since water freezes at 0 C, there would be no way for frozen food to contain velvet that wasn't dead.

 

[Brew12]

Curious if you’ve actually read and digested these? The first study isn’t even related to the diseases being discussed. If we want to talk about putting probiotics in the aquarium, it might be useful.

I’d say the second study is a 50/50 split between how a fish immune’s system is different/similar to mammals. Even the title uses the word “crossroads”. There is quite a bit of information in it. I’m not seeing anything that specifically relates to why a fish would get “stronger” after its survived the serious diseases being discussed. Is there a specific section that you feel proves your hypothesis?

I used those because they are not behind paywalls and I'm not sure if you have access to the same studies I normally use. And yes, I have read and digested them along with many others. The majority of the first link was about how a fishes innate ability reacts to an exposure to pathogens. It then discusses how each mechanism contributes to attacking the pathogen on subsequent re-exposure. I'm not sure it gets any more relevant than that.

A more observational based study showing the concept with Cryptocaryon Irritans can be found here if you can access it.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1050464885700435

As for the second article, I feel these sections show it quite clearly.
"The complement system Fish, as other vertebrates and invertebrates, activate their immune system after recognition of pathogen-associated molecular patterns (PAMPs) by specific receptors. These receptors act as soluble forms (LPS-binding protein, pentraxins, complement, collectins) or are associated to membranes of immune cells (epithelial, phagocytic, dendritic, granulocytic). The complement system appears to be one of the central immune responses in fish."

"Here, there are some relevant differences compared with mammals. The first is that fish possess multiple active isoforms of the key activation molecule C3. Mammals have one isoform of the C3 molecule whereas fish express several functionally active C3 isoforms"

 

[ngoodermuth]

I just would clarify one thing... regarding suggesting the use of prophylactic treatments vs. symptom-based recommendations.

In general, it is NOT recommended to use most antibiotics (at least in the fish forum) as part of prophylactic treatment. Metronidazole- yes... as a preventative against brook and uronema, and intestinal parasites. But, most “other” antibiotics aren’t suggested until there are symptoms presented that are consistent with a bacterial infection.

My personal prophylactic treatments include copper or CP (until I can find a suitable alternative, that’s all I have for velvet) metronidazole, and praziquantel.

So, to find suitable replacements/treatments for those medications would be necessary for me to voluntarily stop those prophylactic treatments.

How do you feel about the use of H2O2 vs. copper? Humble has been doing some research and had some startling results regarding the effectiveness of H202 against velvet. I’d suggest that a combination of TTM and H202 baths could possibly replace copper, but that would be experimental yet at this point.

 

[MnFish1]

Well I guess I would have to say that I strongly disagree with you with regards to fluconazole I think it's great for the hobby and I wish that we would have had it years ago. I have a small 20 gallon coral quarantine tank and fluconazole is very much a part of my preventive treatment to make sure that bryopsis and bubble algae don't make it into my main display. And I really don't see any danger inherent in using it I certainly don't believe it's going to lead to me or my family getting super ringworm or something down the road. I don't have ever run an ammonia Alert in that tank like I do in a fish quarantine tank so when you group that together with antibacterial antibiotics it made me wonder if maybe that occasional frag that didn't make it could have been due to an ammonia Spike from me putting a triple dose of fluconazole in to kill bubble algae. Which is why I wanted clarification sorry that it offended you.

Please dont make an argument I didnt make - it didnt offend me. None of this is personal - and whether you think it will or will not affect you in the future (unless you are an epidemiologist. microbiologist or (to use the term - mycologist)) - the problem is not 'ringworm' - the problem is resistant histoplasmosis, candida, etc. Given the fact that I happen to be immunosuppressed due to medication - I do take it a bit more seriously. You may think 'ringworm' is a joke (as do it) but the other fungal infections that fluconazole treats are life-saving to multiple millions of people. So forgive me if I dont just give you a pass on this one. My comment to you - if you have algae in your tank - its not worth ONE person dying of a fluconazole resistant fungus. In fact it seems comical to have to debate this - even if its in a 1:1,000,000 chance.

 

[Mastiffsrule]

What are the signs a fish thru QT, medicated or not is clean?

Fish, just like people, need immune systems. QT thru ttm is good. Bombing them with meds and other things are not. It is weakening the very thing they need, an immune system to help them fight. I don’t go to the store and buy every pill in the aisle in case I get a cold or headache. I rely on healthy eating and environment to help. If a cold comes on, then time to hit that aisle.

If the fish comes in with signs of illness them QT is in order. Just like at an emergency room it should be triaged. If the signs are minor try reducing stress and bumping up healthy feeding. If it is a case of fish 911, then hit the meds. Not every symptom calls for a nuclear strike.

To sum up, can you guarantee me if I QT and treat, or even just QT I will avoid illness. If so I will QT everything. If not, I will stay with the method I have used for 35 years. Try to purchase healthy fish if able, reduce the stress and allow them to acclimate to the environment and feed, feed, feed.

 

[Lasse]

And you have this from 2013 (not from 1984 and not an in vitro studie)

We are aware of one outbreak of A. ocellatum in red drum that seemed to have been introduced via feed. Red drum broodstock were fed wild-caught pinfish (Lagodon rhomboides) that were being stored in a home freezer. Amyloodinium trophonts were readily visible on gill biopsies of pin fish when they were examined with a microscope. It is not known how long, or at what temperature, infective material would need to be frozen to prevent this from being a risk factor. Since cryopreservation of A. ocellatum has not been demonstrated, it may be that there was another source of infection that was never identified. Tomonts have been observed in intestinal contents of infected red drum, so it may be that trophonts can drop off of gills, pass through the gastrointestinal tract, and remain viable (J. Landsberg, personal communication).

CP (until I can find a suitable alternative, that’s all I have for velvet) metronidazole, and praziquantel.

IMO - these are regards as antibiotics too Metronidazzole is even antibacterial and used in nearly all stomach operations - believe me - I know. There is recistance to these drugs too

But I don't see anybody saying that they want a sterile Aquarium all me and other posters like me have really been saying is that we believe in keeping the big boys out of our tank, ich, velvet, uronema, brook , etc. Basically unwanted parasites I'm not worried about other pathogens or bacterias my tank is in my house I couldn't keep those kinds of things out of it if I wanted to that would require a lab and a clean room. I firmly believe that anyone that can keep those four out of their tank has a much much greater chance of long-term success in this Hobby then somebody who doesn't.

It seems to be very difficult to get the whole picture. These drugs affect the fish with stress, depressed immune system and many times bacteriological issues from bacteria that´s are faculative patoghens. Next cure will be antbacterial drugs, and you will end up with the conclusion - you need to have a sterile system.

Humble has been doing some research and had some startling results regarding the effectiveness of H202 against velvet. I’d suggest that a combination of TTM and H202 baths could possibly replace copper, but that would be experimental yet at this point.

very good but I remember the reactions that come up when this first was discussed

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul Sands]

I used those because they are not behind paywalls and I'm not sure if you have access to the same studies I normally use. And yes, I have read and digested them along with many others. The majority of the first link was about how a fishes innate ability reacts to an exposure to pathogens. It then discusses how each mechanism contributes to attacking the pathogen on subsequent re-exposure. I'm not sure it gets any more relevant than that.

A more observational based study showing the concept with Cryptocaryon Irritans can be found here if you can access it.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1050464885700435

As for the second article, I feel these sections show it quite clearly.
"The complement system Fish, as other vertebrates and invertebrates, activate their immune system after recognition of pathogen-associated molecular patterns (PAMPs) by specific receptors. These receptors act as soluble forms (LPS-binding protein, pentraxins, complement, collectins) or are associated to membranes of immune cells (epithelial, phagocytic, dendritic, granulocytic). The complement system appears to be one of the central immune responses in fish."

"Here, there are some relevant differences compared with mammals. The first is that fish possess multiple active isoforms of the key activation molecule C3. Mammals have one isoform of the C3 molecule whereas fish express several functionally active C3 isoforms"

That study on ich is not new and I’ve read it many times before. It’s almost 25 years old and it’s referenced in a number of other papers that have already been bounced around in this discussion. It’s funny that you reference it here, because it found really limited immunity response with most of the fish continuing to be infected by ich to some degree. They found that the immunity didn’t carry over to even related infections, much less general immune response. So, to me it proves that the fish weren’t stronger in a general sense. Whatever limited immunity the fish acquired also disappeared after a few months. I’ve actually got a PDF of this study on my laptop.

I also think you seem to be missing the point that a fish that has survived a substantial disease is more likely to be weaker and have associated infections. Your claim that fish are stronger is unsupported and undermined by the very link you provided.