A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

[MnFish1]

I’m not meaning to be disrespectful, I just feel like the debates are very much related. What is the difference between treating prophylactically or treating symptomatically in terms of the treated fish’s ability to thrive in a parasite-friendly environment?

If you do not treat ALL of your fish prophylactically, there is a very good chance that parasites will eventually find their way into your display. I’ve seen this myself, multiple times. I’ve added multiple fish that have all had a lengthy 30 day+ observational QT... none symptomatic..and then all of a sudden, one is covered in spots. Then another, and another... and before you know it, you are scrambling to salvage whatever you can while fish die left and right.

So where did the parasites come from? And why didn’t my “un-treated” fish survive the attack? How do you remedy this scenario? How do I treat those fish with symptoms and still have them live harmoniously with the parasites that will inevitably end up in my tank?

I’ve had TWO velvet wipe-outs, in the 8-9 years I’ve been doing this. The only thing that has changed this for me, adopting a prophylactic treatment protocol. Maybe I’m “doing it wrong” but it’s not what’s worked for me... it’s what hasn’t worked for me.

I would be interested in WHY you think you got the velvet outbreaks - was there anything you can remember doing (i.e. was it a new fish, a temp change, etc etc?). I also had one outbreak - and it was when I decided to go with a low-priced internet supplier. Not only the new fish - but all my old fish died as well (within a week) - I also didnt do biopsies, etc - but it sure sounded like velvet - and didn't look like CI.

IMHO - the first part of prophylaxis against disease is not medicine - its making sure you're buying healthy fish from a supplier that uses proper methods. I, for example - buy fish from ONLY 1 store that does not use copper (low dose) that are already eating, healthy and in invertebrate containing tanks many times I go in look at a fish - and only buy it 2 weeks later. Coral - I only buy from stores where there is no fish in the tank - and usually larger pieces that have been in that tank for some time (i.e. the coral is already 'fallow') to a great degree.

The second part of prophylaxis is making sure you're tank is appropriate for the things you're putting into it (water conditions, stocking density, flow, filtration) perhaps even gorgonians ...

But - it would only be after making sure all of those things are checked that I would even consider buying a new fish. Then the question becomes 'QT or QT+Medication or Nothing'.
Frankly (and I dont mean you @ngoodermuth) my guess is that most people just pick a fish online - and don't pay attention to some of these 'other things'.

Frankly - there has to be a 'difference' between what you are seeing in the supply chain - and what I'm seeing in my area. There has to be a reason why many people can just drop fish in and others have problems. Interested in your thoughts above

And PS - that to me is the purpose of this whole exercise - its not debating semantics in various scientific papers (though I highly rely on reviewing several sources) - its about trying to figure out why there seems to be such a dichotomy.

 

[Brew12]

Thank you - and as an old submarine guy - you just put a torpedo into the flagship of the chemoprophylactic theory of fighting ich. If you can´t eradicate the parasite in your tank and/or in stones or corals with a fallow period - it is of no use according to Ich.

Sincerely Lasse

Yup, it was game changing when I saw this. If you ever have ich in your system there is little hope that any length of fallow period will be effective. I don't know just how low O2 gets in a QT tank in low flow areas in the system but it's another thing that makes me go hmm...

 

[ngoodermuth]

I would be interested in WHY you think you got the velvet outbreaks - was there anything you can remember doing (i.e. was it a new fish, a temp change, etc etc?). I also had one outbreak - and it was when I decided to go with a low-priced internet supplier. Not only the new fish - but all my old fish died as well (within a week) - I also didnt do biopsies, etc - but it sure sounded like velvet - and didn't look like CI.

IMHO - the first part of prophylaxis against disease is not medicine - its making sure you're buying healthy fish from a supplier that uses proper methods. I, for example - buy fish from ONLY 1 store that does not use copper (low dose) that are already eating, healthy and in invertebrate containing tanks many times I go in look at a fish - and only buy it 2 weeks later. Coral - I only buy from stores where there is no fish in the tank - and usually larger pieces that have been in that tank for some time (i.e. the coral is already 'fallow') to a great degree.

The second part of prophylaxis is making sure you're tank is appropriate for the things you're putting into it (water conditions, stocking density, flow, filtration) perhaps even gorgonians ...

But - it would only be after making sure all of those things are checked that I would even consider buying a new fish. Then the question becomes 'QT or QT+Medication or Nothing'.
Frankly (and I dont mean you @ngoodermuth) my guess is that most people just pick a fish online - and don't pay attention to some of these 'other things'.

Frankly - there has to be a 'difference' between what you are seeing in the supply chain - and what I'm seeing in my area. There has to be a reason why many people can just drop fish in and others have problems. Interested in your thoughts above

I have two questionable Petco stores and one LFS in reasonable driving distance from me. The LFS is fairy large and well known, but they do not QT (I’ve watched them unload new shipments into the main system with existing fish) and move pretty large numbers of fish on a weekly basis.

I’ve seen signs of velvet (incessant scratching/swimming into flow), bacterial infections, and uronema with my own eyes at different times. I also know that the system is never broken down and sterilized, as there are always fish in it.

They sometimes run low levels of copper and praziquantel, according to employees. But, not always. They keep inverts separate and live rock, but employ mostly teens/college kids and I’m pretty certain that cross-contamination happens across all systems, separate or not.

So I have these local sources, and ordering online as my choices to buy fish and CUC.

I’m not 100% certain where the velvet came from but in both instances I’d stocked wrasses/clowns first and then an angel or tang... which even though they seemed fine in QT, broke out soon after joining my tank. So I’m assuming wrasses or inverts carried it in and were just not symptomatic... but once the breakout started, all of the fish died.

With my current tank, I treated all of my fish except the mandarin (purchased from the above mentioned LFS because I wanted to “see” it was in good condition rather than order one sight-unseen) and soon after adding it, all of the fish (except the mandarin) broke out in ich.

I pulled and treated all of my fish, and have treated every new addition since then... and so far, so good.

 

[Brew12]

I’m not meaning to be disrespectful, I just feel like the debates are very much related. What is the difference between treating prophylactically or treating symptomatically in terms of the treated fish’s ability to thrive in a parasite-friendly environment?

I realize this isn't directed at me, but I would like to share my thoughts on it. If a fish is showing symptoms that require treating it is an indication that its innate immune system may need additional help to buy its adaptive immune system time. If you treat a fish not showing symptoms you could potentially damage it's immune system making it more likely to be negatively impacted by the parasite you are trying to eliminate.

If you do not treat ALL of your fish prophylactically, there is a very good chance that parasites will eventually find their way into your display. I’ve seen this myself, multiple times. I’ve added multiple fish that have all had a lengthy 30 day+ observational QT... none symptomatic..and then all of a sudden, one is covered in spots. Then another, and another... and before you know it, you are scrambling to salvage whatever you can while fish die left and right.

There seems to be a very good chance parasites will make it into systems of people who do use QT. Very few people in the hobby QT everything perfectly. My heart still breaks for Meredith, who worked hand in hand with Humblefish and who I learned so much from. She had finally installed her dream in-wall system and was stocking it with fish. Despite her best efforts, something got into her system in the first few months and wiped out almost all of her carefully QT'd fish. She did the full fallow period and tried again only to have another tank wipe. If it can happen to her, it can happen to anyone.

And why didn’t my “un-treated” fish survive the attack? How do you remedy this scenario?

How do I treat those fish with symptoms and still have them live harmoniously with the parasites that will inevitably end up in my tank?

These are the questions I want answered, too. Is it possible to expose a naive fish to a pathogen and reliably give it time to develop it's adaptive immunity? If so, can we separate out what really works and what is anecdotal? The only thing I feel is certain is that gut bacteria are critical, so quality food is important. Beyond that, what else can we do?
It is incredibly difficult to keep pathogens out of our tanks. There is also the entire issue of tank bred fish which will have almost no adaptive immunity after the first generation.​

 

[Paul B]

One thing I have been very tempted to do is drop a black molly in my tank and see if it survives. I'm not sure I want to know the answer right now so I haven't done it.

Based on what I've read about putting non-immune fish into a tank of immune or partly immune - I would not think that would be a good idea

I threw 5 of them in my tank a few weeks ago. So far they seem fine.

I feel most people do it the exact opposite than me and a lot of successful people as we don't care about parasites and they are a non issue. I actually want them and the more the better. All types including velvet.

I bought fish last week and their tanks were full of ich with many dead fish. If your tank is healthy (and I said how to do that) the fish never seem to care.
I put in a hippo tang a few weeks ago and he was scratching in the store and had this weird white spot on him. In a few days he was fine and the big spot disappeared. He stopped scratching and is eating well. He especially likes linguine and clams.

When I got him



And a few days later. (Excuse him as he is pooping here) Those spots are bubbles, not ich as I know someone would point that out.



A couple of more ich magnets in my tank.



This copperband is 8 or 10 years old.

 

[Brew12]

I threw 5 of them in my tank a few weeks ago. So far they seem fine.

Yes, but your tank is like Lasse's in that you have a huge number of coral "mouths". I don't have nearly as many. I could be wrong, but I do feel that may be the single most effective parasite limiting method we can employ.
Of course, your Godzilla larvae may have scared all the parasites out, too. Always a possibility.

 

[HomeSlizzice]

And that is a large reason right there that I have NOT given up on QT. The fear of one of those disasters happening and watching them happen in the disease forum. Wouldn't it be great though, if we could get away from the aggressive QT methods we seem to be employing currently AND not having those disasters and diseases happen?

I think that's really what @Brew12 is hoping for as well. If only we could quantify and qualify why some folks seem to have success and others don't.

I also don't think that the people working on improving treatment or trying to find better ways of treating should stop. If the end goal is saving fish I feel like we should pursue every option.

I don't think anyone advocates not treating obviously sick fish. Lasse offers advice on how to treat fish using medications on a fairly regular basis. Paul B has an entire section in his book about how to treat fish, including the use of copper. The thing most object to is prophylactic treatment which can't legally be done in many parts of the world per our normal recommendations anyway.

I will also say that it is one reason I am excited to see what Humblefish can come up with in regards to using H2O2. That could be a game changer that should be accessible to almost everyone. Until that happens, I'm committed to pursuing every avenue in the effort to minimize fish deaths. Relying on boosting fish immunity is one of those paths I feel we (collective R2R) should be working more aggressively to research.

I don't hear many people advocation 'against' QT (observation) - and treatment with medication when there is a disease. Most people are just saying 'what they personally do' (Thats all I've done). You asked what advice to give - the answer - if your fish has a disease - treat it. If the fish in your display tank get an illness - take them out and treat them for that disease. I personally am not sure about the fallow period for various reasons - if you decide to go that way - fine. But - the main advice I would give is do your best to PREVENT the disease in the first place. Buy from outstanding sources (not necessarily the cheapest) - try to observe the fish for a time before purchase (and the other fish around them). Keep your water/parameters/stocking density low. Try to have filter feeders/high flow/and perhaps something like an ozonizer/UV, etc.

Its interesting - that one of the 'stress events' that can trigger an outbreak is actually adding 'non-immune' fish to a tank that has even a small amount of CI or velvet. The thought being that the non-immune fish develops the disease - which causes rapid increase in parasites which causes even the immune to succumb.

One thing I object to - and its Germaine to the OP - is people see a spot on their fish - they start treating - its not better in a day - they switch or add more and more and more. And this is seen quite often on the disease forum. Fish end up being treated with multiple agents - when one agent would have likely sufficed. This was the most common reason (according to a scientist at one of the major 'fish' medication companies for fish death or the apparent 'failure of a product to 'work''. If people want to keep up this 'shotgun' approach to medicating fish - we probably will end up like Canada - where you need a veterinarian to order a prescription. And veterinarians are not likely to prescribe for example fluconazole for an algae problem. (PS - the way this would likely work is there would be a specialist who starts a business - people send in the picture of their disease/answer a history questionaire and the vet makes a recommendation)

I think @ngoodermuth has probably hit on one of the biggest things for me. I have QT'd my fish up to this point in my current system. Albeit, not perfectly so I would not claim to have a disease free tank by any means. But, say I've created this somewhat artificial environment now by having prophylactically treating my fish for disease, such that they may not have immunity built up, but rather the disease just isn't present to infect them? Then, I go and stop prophylactically treating my fish in QT. I just do a couple week observation and if all is well, in the tank they go.

What if, that fish I just introduced that I didn't medicate is actually carrying a disease it has built up some immunity to and I've just infected all my fish and they all die? I mean, I like to think that my fish are healthy and robust but...are they really?

This thread is not about QT or not - it is about chemoprophylactic treatmen of fish. And this thread is not about not using medicines when it is need for it. The thread is about not using strong medicines and chemichals just in case of. You are debating something else and try to put these opinions on people that are critical to your way of chemoprophylactic treat fish. You construct a standpoint and put this in our mounths in spite of the fact that you know that no person in this thread and critical against the chemoprphylactic methods have advocate this that I have make bold. IMO - this is very derespectful way to do a debate - put a standpoint into another persons mounth and after that with much of empati fight this. If you want to debate my opions feel free to do it - but do not put opions in my mouuth that I do not have.

Sincerely Lasse

This is why I broke down my first large post on page 13 into the different options I laid out.
We basically have 3 possibilities on what people are willing to do with their fish, corals, inverts, etc. For the purpose of my post, I'm going to focus on fish though...

Option 1.
No QT, no observation, no dip, just straight in the tank after acclimation (float for temp, drip, etc).

Option 2.
Dip before going into the tank. Dip in either fresh water, a methylene blue, formalin, Rally, Hydroplex, Safety Stop, etc.

Option 3.
QT. The option most readily accepted as the best. This is what all (or almost all) of us believe one should do. But... what does QT mean exactly?

I really do think we need to look at the 4 different styles of QT I listed and discuss the pros and cons of each, and explore different ways to make each more effective. Consider making the following 4 terms common place when discuss QT options.


QT Option 1. OBSERVATION ONLY QT.
Observation only QT. If no diseases or other problems show, then the fish is released into the display after 2-6 weeks. Treatments are only done as needed. Treatments end up being disease specific, and most likely one of the 3 below.


For QT Options 2, 3, & 4 deciding on if to prophylactically treat immediately or after a 1-2 week resting period I think is also important.

QT Option 2. PROPHYLACTIC QT WITH ZERO MEDS.
Prophylactically treating everything in QT WITH ZERO MEDS, regardless of if they appear healthy or not with. Prophylactic Treatment can be either immediate or after a short resting period.

Possible treatment options:
-TTM
-Fresh Water Dips/baths
-Daily Siphoning via small water changes (Anthony Calfo method, and similar to fishery method)
-Daily Siphoning via large (50%) water changes (Steven Pro method)
-Micro Filtration: DE Filter, RO Sediment Filters, etc.

This is all based on the premise of outrunning the parasites known life cycles, and killing/harming them with the fresh water dips. Should theoretically work for Ich, Velvet, and most likely also Flukes, Brook, Black Ich and possibly more (Uronema marinum & other protozoa).

If Uronema marinum, Fungi, bacteria, other protozoa, Flukes, Internal parasites, and/or intestinal worms become an issue then the usage of meds such as those listed in QT Option 3 and QT Option 4 become needed.


QT Option 3. PROPHYLACTIC QT WITH NON-TOXIC/MILD MEDS.
Prophylactically treating everything in QT WITH Non-Toxic/Mild MEDS and other remedies, regardless of if they appear healthy or not with. Prophylactic Treatment can be either immediate or after a short resting period.

I say non-toxic/mild meds and other remedies because the ones listed to my knowledge aren't carcinogenic, poisonous, don't cause feeding issues, or known to harm the immune system.

Possible treatment options:
-TTM
-Fresh Water Dips
-Daily Siphoning via small water changes (Anthony Calfo method, and similar to fishery method)
-Daily Siphoning via large (50%) water changes (Steven Pro method)
-Micro Filtration: DE Filter, RO Sediment Filters, etc.
-H2O2
-Methylene Blue
-Antiseptics (like Acriflavine, such as Ruby Reef Rally)
-Probiotics
-Vitamins
-Herbal Remedies

Again, is all based on the premise of outrunning the parasites known life cycles, and killing/harming them with the fresh water dips and/or mild meds and other remedies. Should theoretically work for Ich, Velvet, and most likely also Flukes, Brook, Black Ich, Fungi, bacteria, and possibly more (Uronema marinum & other protozoa).

The mild meds such as Acriflavine, H2O2, Methylene Blue, and possible others would help work against those 5 parasites plus some other issues like Fungi, bacteria, other protozoa, and possibly helping for Uronema marinum.

If Flukes, Internal parasites, bacterial issues, Uronema marinum, other protozoa, and/or intestinal worms become an issue that can't be treated with mild meds, probiotics, good diet, low stress, and/or heal on their own from the fishes immune system then the usage of toxic meds become an option for treatment. This is obviously a last resort option.


QT Option 4. PROPHYLACTIC QT TOXIC MEDS.
Prophylactically treating everything in QT WITH TOXIC MEDS, regardless of if they appear healthy or not with. Prophylactic Treatment can be either immediate or after a short resting period.

I say toxic meds because the ones listed to my knowledge are either carcinogenic, poisonous, known to cause feeding issues, or known to harm the immune system.

TOXIC treatment options:
-Copper
-CP
-Praziquantel
-Metronidazole
-Formalin
-AntiBiotics
-Other meds (some may require a prescription)

Non-Toxic treatment options that can be combined with above if desired:
-TTM
-Fresh Water Dips
-Daily Siphoning via small water changes (Anthony Calfo method, and similar to fishery method)
-Daily Siphoning via large (50%) water changes (Steven Pro method)
-Micro Filtration: DE Filter, RO Sediment Filters, etc.
-H2O2
-Methylene Blue
-Antiseptics (like Acriflavine, such as Ruby Reef Rally)
-Probiotics
-Vitamins
-Herbal Remedies

Copper, CP, Praziquantel, Metronidazole, Formalin, and even possibly Antibiotics are used in some combo prophylactically and done to ensure totally elimination of any/all parasites and diseases.

This option does have the potential issues mentioned so far in this thread, such as damaged immune system, carcinogenic, poisonous, feeding problems, possible disease resistance to meds, and potentially others.

Again... to me, QT Option 4 is what is currently most often used and suggested.


QT Options 2 & 3 are my personal favorites, and what I'm most comfortable doing in my own home with my tanks.

 

[Lasse]

Lots of flow including surface agitation. Tank was aerated, skimmer was left on, cup removed. Seachem Prime and Brightwell Microbacter-7 were both dosed every other day for ammonia. There may still have been ammonia present. My limit of spending money on test kits and medications, plus time spent, was reached. I did one 20% water change at 72 hours, a second dose, another 72 hours and then two back to back 20% water changes. Now you've got me thinking I really messed this up. I wasn't willing to test ammonia daily, so you may be right, it's possible it wasn't prazi and was ammonia. Though I did try to mitigate ammonia and did consider it a possible issue.

IMO - not a chanse that accut toxic levels of NH3 should be build up in that system.

sincerely Lasse

 

[HomeSlizzice]

I have experience with both QT with UVC sterilization, nutrition and observation as the only intervention (with great success). And I have had some limited experience with prophylactic treatment in QT tanks. In my experience prophylactic treatment is very diffucult to manage successfully due to the knife edge of exposure to chemicals and antibiotics that severely inhibit the very organisms that filter the water for the fish. So the fish are not only sickened by the toxins and antibiotics in the water but the water is now more toxic to the fish by release of their own fish waste.

I need to remind you all that in the ~5ml sea water sample taken there are 1 to 5 million bacteria and 5 to 50 million viruses. (Wikipedia is not the best source but there are citations in there for more credible places for you to search on your own.) Saltwater fish have adapted to that environment though various communities of organisms that in fact live on and in the fish. So now you kill some of those communities and the result is disease and death. No one wants to talk about this real science in the attempt to create a "clean" fish that is now ready to live in our much smaller ocean. You are chasing your tails like a crazy dog until you admit their is much more that we don't know than what we do know about disease process in captive fish populations. Fish can manage much of their health through these adaptive mechanisms. Stress of capture and transportation does suppress the fishes normal immune response. They need rest and observation first before deciding what comes next. In the vast majority of cases I believe the fish will return to some level of equalibrium in the captive environment if that environment is stable and mature.

Most of the disease forum is about recently (less than a year) old tanks started with dry nuked rock and various attempts to add bacteria in a bottle along with the fight to control algae of various types. The battle for equalibrium in the system is not even attained and people attempt to add fish. This is one of the reasons for problems on the disease threads in my opinion. We must create the ecosystem first then selectively add the fish later for greater success. We are trying to mimic the natural environment not create a new kind the fish is not adapted too! This is also why we should limit the number and type of fish we keep in that environment. We need to also consider that less is more in terms of the numbers and types of corals and inverts we keep in each tank. Populations that run up against the upper levels of filtration capacity tips the balance toward disease outbreaks even in old tanks.

By the way I may disagree with the use of prophylaxis as the first approach but much good information is being developed by @Humblefish , @HotRocks , @4FordFamily , @Brew12 , and @ngoodermuth in how to treat disease if you encounter it. I just was never successful with that approach and killed more than I saved trying that method. That said these individuals have given me a resource should I ever need to medicate a sick fish and I applaud them for that! In some cases I would prefer to euthanize the fish than to cause it more suffering.

Well said!

 

[Brew12]

This is why I broke down my first large post on page 13 into the different options I laid out.
We basically have 3 possibilities on what people are willing to do with their fish, corals, inverts, etc. For the purpose of my post, I'm going to focus on fish though...

Option 1.
No QT, no observation, no dip, just straight in the tank after acclimation (float for temp, drip, etc).

Option 2.
Dip before going into the tank. Dip in either fresh water, a methylene blue, formalin, Rally, Hydroplex, Safety Stop, etc.

Option 3.
QT. The option most readily accepted as the best. This is what all (or almost all) of us believe one should do. But... what does QT mean exactly?

I really do think we need to look at the 4 different styles of QT I listed and discuss the pros and cons of each, and explore different ways to make each more effective. Consider making the following 4 terms common place when discuss QT options.


QT Option 1. OBSERVATION ONLY QT.
Observation only QT. If no diseases or other problems show, then the fish is released into the display after 2-6 weeks. Treatments are only done as needed. Treatments end up being disease specific, and most likely one of the 3 below.


For QT Options 2, 3, & 4 deciding on if to prophylactically treat immediately or after a 1-2 week resting period I think is also important.

QT Option 2. PROPHYLACTIC QT WITH ZERO MEDS.
Prophylactically treating everything in QT WITH ZERO MEDS, regardless of if they appear healthy or not with. Prophylactic Treatment can be either immediate or after a short resting period.

Possible treatment options:
-TTM
-Fresh Water Dips/baths
-Daily Siphoning via small water changes (Anthony Calfo method, and similar to fishery method)
-Daily Siphoning via large (50%) water changes (Steven Pro method)
-Micro Filtration: DE Filter, RO Sediment Filters, etc.

This is all based on the premise of outrunning the parasites known life cycles, and killing/harming them with the fresh water dips. Should theoretically work for Ich, Velvet, and most likely also Flukes, Brook, Black Ich and possibly more (Uronema marinum & other protozoa).

If Uronema marinum, Fungi, bacteria, other protozoa, Flukes, Internal parasites, and/or intestinal worms become an issue then the usage of meds such as those listed in QT Option 3 and QT Option 4 become needed.


QT Option 3. PROPHYLACTIC QT WITH NON-TOXIC/MILD MEDS.
Prophylactically treating everything in QT WITH Non-Toxic/Mild MEDS and other remedies, regardless of if they appear healthy or not with. Prophylactic Treatment can be either immediate or after a short resting period.

I say non-toxic/mild meds and other remedies because the ones listed to my knowledge aren't carcinogenic, poisonous, don't cause feeding issues, or known to harm the immune system.

Possible treatment options:
-TTM
-Fresh Water Dips
-Daily Siphoning via small water changes (Anthony Calfo method, and similar to fishery method)
-Daily Siphoning via large (50%) water changes (Steven Pro method)
-Micro Filtration: DE Filter, RO Sediment Filters, etc.
-H2O2
-Methylene Blue
-Antiseptics (like Acriflavine, such as Ruby Reef Rally)
-Probiotics
-Vitamins
-Herbal Remedies

Again, is all based on the premise of outrunning the parasites known life cycles, and killing/harming them with the fresh water dips and/or mild meds and other remedies. Should theoretically work for Ich, Velvet, and most likely also Flukes, Brook, Black Ich, Fungi, bacteria, and possibly more (Uronema marinum & other protozoa).

The mild meds such as Acriflavine, H2O2, Methylene Blue, and possible others would help work against those 5 parasites plus some other issues like Fungi, bacteria, other protozoa, and possibly helping for Uronema marinum.

If Flukes, Internal parasites, bacterial issues, Uronema marinum, other protozoa, and/or intestinal worms become an issue that can't be treated with mild meds, probiotics, good diet, low stress, and/or heal on their own from the fishes immune system then the usage of toxic meds become an option for treatment. This is obviously a last resort option.


QT Option 4. PROPHYLACTIC QT TOXIC MEDS.
Prophylactically treating everything in QT WITH TOXIC MEDS, regardless of if they appear healthy or not with. Prophylactic Treatment can be either immediate or after a short resting period.

I say toxic meds because the ones listed to my knowledge are either carcinogenic, poisonous, known to cause feeding issues, or known to harm the immune system.

TOXIC treatment options:
-Copper
-CP
-Praziquantel
-Metronidazole
-Formalin
-AntiBiotics
-Other meds (some may require a prescription)

Non-Toxic treatment options that can be combined with above if desired:
-TTM
-Fresh Water Dips
-Daily Siphoning via small water changes (Anthony Calfo method, and similar to fishery method)
-Daily Siphoning via large (50%) water changes (Steven Pro method)
-Micro Filtration: DE Filter, RO Sediment Filters, etc.
-H2O2
-Methylene Blue
-Antiseptics (like Acriflavine, such as Ruby Reef Rally)
-Probiotics
-Vitamins
-Herbal Remedies

Copper, CP, Praziquantel, Metronidazole, Formalin, and even possibly Antibiotics are used in some combo prophylactically and done to ensure totally elimination of any/all parasites and diseases.

This option does have the potential issues mentioned so far in this thread, such as damaged immune system, carcinogenic, poisonous, feeding problems, possible disease resistance to meds, and potentially others.

Again... to me, QT Option 4 is what is currently most often used and suggested.


QT Options 2 & 3 are my personal favorites, and what I'm most comfortable doing in my own home with my tanks.

I think this is an excellent post. The only thing I may disagree with is that some of what you have listed as Non-Toxic may actually be toxic. It's too early to say if H2O2, at the levels needed to treat for parasites, is toxic. Acriflavine is listed as moderately toxic to humans and a possible carcinogen.

The only other thing I would say is that while Option 4 is most likely recommended, it probably isn't most likely used. And even fewer people properly QT inverts and corals to make it effective.

 

[HomeSlizzice]

I very much suspect that a combination of H202 and Tank Transfer could be a very good solution where copper is not working or well tolerated.

I’d be interested to see if it can be of any use against uronema and brooklynella as well.

This article discusses H2O2 - back in 2011: http://agrilife.org/fisheries/files...mportant-Parasite-of-Cultured-Marine-Fish.pdf

They state that a 30 minute bath in 25 ppm lowered mortality considerably - the study only lasted 4 days - and the authors thought that repeated treatment would be required.

This is something I am hopeful can be made into a great option to be used for treatment, and prophylactic QT. A TTM and H2O2 hybrid could be promising.

 

[ngoodermuth]

I realize this isn't directed at me, but I would like to share my thoughts on it. If a fish is showing symptoms that require treating it is an indication that its innate immune system may need additional help to buy its adaptive immune system time. If you treat a fish not showing symptoms you could potentially damage it's immune system making it more likely to be negatively impacted by the parasite you are trying to eliminate.


There seems to be a very good chance parasites will make it into systems of people who do use QT. Very few people in the hobby QT everything perfectly. My heart still breaks for Meredith, who worked hand in hand with Humblefish and who I learned so much from. She had finally installed her dream in-wall system and was stocking it with fish. Despite her best efforts, something got into her system in the first few months and wiped out almost all of her carefully QT'd fish. She did the full fallow period and tried again only to have another tank wipe. If it can happen to her, it can happen to anyone.

These are the questions I want answered, too. Is it possible to expose a naive fish to a pathogen and reliably give it time to develop it's adaptive immunity? If so, can we separate out what really works and what is anecdotal? The only thing I feel is certain is that gut bacteria are critical, so quality food is important. Beyond that, what else can we do?
It is incredibly difficult to keep pathogens out of our tanks. There is also the entire issue of tank bred fish which will have almost no adaptive immunity after the first generation.​

I didn’t know that about Meredith... I was wondering what happened to her when I came back and she wasn’t here

 

[Paul B]

Yes, but your tank is like Lasse's in that you have a huge number of coral "mouths". I don't have nearly as many

I also have a lot of sponges. Maybe they eat the parasites, or maybe it's because I offer up tea leaves to the moon. We may never know.

 

[HomeSlizzice]

I think this is an excellent post. The only thing I may disagree with is that some of what you have listed as Non-Toxic may actually be toxic. It's too early to say if H2O2, at the levels needed to treat for parasites, is toxic. Acriflavine is listed as moderately toxic to humans and a possible carcinogen.

The only other thing I would say is that while Option 4 is most likely recommended, it probably isn't most likely used. And even fewer people properly QT inverts and corals to make it effective.

Thank you!

I agree some of the meds I listed as Non-toxic might be considered toxic. I'm open to moving them over to the toxic side if needed. I did also say non-toxic/mild meds as an option, so mild could mean that while they are mildly toxic, it is to such as small amount that its considered safe to use. Like taking NyQuil or ibuprofen, vs say chemotherapy.


I agree that most people probably don't QT at all, and for those that do it probably isn't quite as in-depth as Option 4. I'm assuming a lot who may QT just do say 30 days of copper for fish and call it a day, while not QTing inverts/corals.

 

[4FordFamily]

Seems I’ve missed quite the discussion here.

It’s no secret where I stand, my experience over the past few years is that nearly every fish has at least one parasite or ailment in need of treatment and each batch will almost certainly have one if the more dangerous — velvet, uronema, etc. by the time you’ve identified the culprit, it’s too late, particularly with these two. The fish is a wreck internally with uronema or the gills with velvet before even seasoned veteran hobbyists are obvious symptoms.

@Humblefish has also discovered that many wrasse with what we thought had spinal injuries, had uronema around their spinal cord in autopsy.

I didn’t quarantine for my first decade in the hobby. Five years or so ago I switched over, fish condition has deteriorated dramatically since then. I don’t like quarantining and share concerns with prophylactic treatment but don’t see that it’s optional anymore for success even short term, but particularly long-term.

I also moved in to more ornamental, difficult, and expensive fish which was an additional push. Not only are they often more susceptible and demanding, parasites are an additional stressor and draw on their limited strength and energy. Not that money is everything, but protecting $5,000 - $10,000 or more of fish livestock is a different ball game than a tank with $500 of fish or less. It changes the way you do things, more lives and money on the line, ethics aside.

My 700 gallons of display tanks are stuffed full of fish without these diseases/ailments and I rest easier. I feel I owe it to my existing inhabitants. I answer to them before my newly purchased fish, so to speak.

 

[Brew12]

I didn’t know that about Meredith... I was wondering what happened to her when I came back and she wasn’t here

That isn't the only reason she isn't here, a lot of it was wanting to spend more time with her kids so she needed to break the R2R addiction that some of us suffer from. I think it just made it easier to break away. Last I heard she still was participating in the hobby.

 

[Mortie31]

Seems I’ve missed quite the discussion here.

It’s no secret where I stand, my experience over the past few years is that nearly every fish has at least one parasite or ailment in need of treatment and each batch will almost certainly have one if the more dangerous — velvet, uronema, etc. by the time you’ve identified the culprit, it’s too late, particularly with these two. The fish is a wreck internally with uronema or the gills with velvet before even seasoned veteran hobbyists are obvious symptoms.

@Humblefish has also discovered that many wrasse with what we thought had spinal injuries, had uronema around their spinal cord in autopsy.

I didn’t quarantine for my first decade in the hobby. Five years or so ago I switched over, fish condition has deteriorated dramatically since then. I don’t like quarantining and share concerns with prophylactic treatment but don’t see that it’s optional anymore for success even short term, but particularly long-term.

I also moved in to more ornamental, difficult, and expensive fish which was an additional push. Not only are they often more susceptible and demanding, parasites are an additional stressor and draw on their limited strength and energy. Not that money is everything, but protecting $5,000 - $10,000 or more of fish livestock is a different ball game than a tank with $500 of fish or less. It changes the way you do things, more lives and money on the line, ethics aside.

My 700 gallons of display tanks are stuffed full of fish without these diseases/ailments and I rest easier. I feel I owe it to my existing inhabitants. I answer to them before my newly purchased fish, so to speak.

Have you considered or thought about other ways of quarantining? I know you work closely with hotrocks and humblefish and it would be interesting to hear your combined thoughts, as your all major proponents of chemoquaratine, and no doubt have influenced countless members around quarantine procedures, what would you three advise In the case these common medications become unavailable/ restricted in the US like they are other parts of the world??

 

[4FordFamily]

Have you considered or thought about other ways of quarantining? I know you work closely with hotrocks and humblefish and it would be interesting to hear your combined thoughts, as your all major proponents of chemoquaratine, and no doubt have influenced countless members around quarantine procedures, what would you three advise In the case these common medications become unavailable/ restricted in the US like they are other parts of the world??

Lots of testing is going on with hydrogen peroxide, stay tuned for that!

 

[Lasse]

Lots of testing is going on with hydrogen peroxide, stay tuned for that!

Did you hear that @atoll

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul Sands]

This study shows that they can be suspended in a hypoxic environment. While they only did the testing for a month it opens the possibility for the encysted stage to last many months, if not years.

5. Conclusions
This study has demonstrated the ability of tomonts to become dormant
in a hypoxic environment and to resume development in an oxic
environment at any developmental stage; it has also demonstrated the
potential long-term viability of dormant tomonts in hypoxic environments.
These results indicate that tomonts can accumulate on the
seabed during the summer when it becomes hypoxic. This accumulation
of tomonts may be a key factor for the autumn outbreaks of cryptocaryoniasis
in floating net cages in temperate waters.

Do you believe there are true hypoxic environments in our reef tanks? I’ve seen debates about that being true or false that were significantly more impassioned than the one on this thread. I don’t have any real basis for an opinion but have seen well respected reefers argue both sides.

I somewhat account for this being true in my frag tank anyway. When I move coral from there to my display tank it gets new frag plugs, dip, and a serious rinse or two with display water to wash away any free swimming parasites. Unless the coral or snail itself is the hypoxic environment, I think I’ve accounted for not transferring those to the display tank as much as humanly possible.