Maybe: Quarantine and Fish Husbandry
Let the disease forum stay for diagnosing and treating acute illness, and the discussions for QT, various methods, and managing fish diseases through husbandry... be it’s own section.
A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine
- Thread starter Brew12
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Maybe: Quarantine and Fish Husbandry
Let the disease forum stay for diagnosing and treating acute illness, and the discussions for QT, various methods, and managing fish diseases through husbandry... be it’s own section.
Lowell Lemon
2500 Club Member
In the thread there should be advise on proper acclimation procedures that match the time fish have been in the bag. I honestly believe that many fish are sent on the disease roller coaster by a poor understanding of necessary techniques for acclimation. You can cause immediate death or onset of death by improper acclimation. Organ failure can be a result of poor acclimation procedures. I see lots of bad advise at the very beginning of the process that can hasten the process toward death for the fish. The fact that they survived the process does not indicate success. You may have damaged vital organs that in turn invite biological attack on the fish.
OP
OP
Brew12
Electrical Gru
Not a bad option at all. I do worry that it would increase the work load on Hotrocks, 4Fordfamily expecially, but also you and a few others who devote so much time since it would require having to monitor 2 forum sections instead of just one. But.. it gives me more to think about.
The end goal needs to be what is best for the R2R community and our fish.
It also has to be able to be accomplished.
Mortie31
Valuable Member
In addition to suggestions above, maybe it’s time for the forum to put pressure somehow into the fish supply chain as it really sounds like it is a substantial issue especially in the US
MnFish1
10K Club member
+1000..... I know this sounds harsh - and potentially difficult - but - if I was going to an LFS - and they told me 'we dont use copper' I would test the water when I got it home - if there was 'low dose copper' - I would inform the owner - and depending on the response tell them until they change their behavior - I will not purchase from them again.
With an online supplier I would call first - ask the question - and test the water when I get the fish. If there is copper - I would report it and either ask for a credit - or just say thank - I will go to a different vendor.
FWIW - I have talked to 2 LFS - no one has even heard of low dose copper in their suppliers - and they do not use it in their stores. Petco for sure does not use low-dose copper. So - I would ask those that see all these problems honestly - where are these fish coming from?
When I asked at the LFS I go to exclusively - the owner said - there is no rationale for that - I've never heard of it. Seachem said the same thing. They said - more of a problem is people using too HIGH of a dose of copper - which they even state results in an immunosuppression - and a higher risk for non-copper treated diseases.
If we can't 'prove' that 'low-dose' copper is being widely practiced and by whom - we maybe should move it down on the list of potential reasons why we are seeing more problems with CI velvet etc. Having said this - I have bought all my fish from places that absolutely do not use it - nor their suppliers - so perhaps thats why I haven't had a problem
The fish in my earlier post (together with around 80 more) was received today after around 48 hours of transport. They were unpacked, after a very short temperature acclimation - they was taken out from the bags and directly transported to the receiving system. The receiving system was pH adjusted by adding CO2 into the water to a pH of 6.9 to 7.0 just before the unpacking. After all fishes was unpacked and in its tanks. The CO2 regulation was stopped, and natural processes took out most of the CO2 and pH in the system rise again. Tomorrow it will be back at normal value. All tanks without light during work. It took 1.5 hours
Sincerely Lasse
drstardust
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Sure, but just add in the word fish and it clears it up (at least for me)...Natural Fish Husbandry....but i’d lean toward the word health also because it’s more straight to the point of exactly what is being talked about, so that’s my vote too.
drstardust
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Beautiful tusk. Is something wrong with it?
Punchanello
Well-Known Member
As a newer reefer I feel like a prophylactic approach is the best recommendation for other new fish-keepers. In principle I agree that it is best for the fish and desirable to quarantine and observe and only treat with medications were disease is apparent and it is necessary. Often, though, disease can be tough to spot for someone like me without experience and the suffering caused by a full-blown outbreak from un-diagnosed disease is far worse than the prophylactic approach.
HomeSlizzice
Wrasse/Angelfish nut!
Side note, I just picked up my equipment for my new QT set up.
20G long observation focused QT, and my assortment of clear bins for my variation of TTM. Plus i have the HOB filter, heaters, air pumps, sponge filters, etc that I need.
The only other piece of equipment I’m curious to pick up and try is the BRS dual reactor for running sediment filters in. Haven’t done it yet, and am in no rush.... but it’s on the list.
After 13 years of reefing, this is the first time I’ll be doing any sort of QT.
20G long observation focused QT, and my assortment of clear bins for my variation of TTM. Plus i have the HOB filter, heaters, air pumps, sponge filters, etc that I need.
The only other piece of equipment I’m curious to pick up and try is the BRS dual reactor for running sediment filters in. Haven’t done it yet, and am in no rush.... but it’s on the list.
After 13 years of reefing, this is the first time I’ll be doing any sort of QT.
Mortie31
Valuable Member
This is a tough one, and the dilemma a lot of newcomers are made to feel by the attitude to chemoprophylaxis that is driven in these forums and certainly a “full blown” outbreak is devastating, but until we know the long term affects of chemoquarantine I’m not sure long term if it’s better. If you observe for a month or 2 and your fish have no visible signs of parasites or disease then how do you feel then? Most new reefers are only dealing with small numbers of fish and according to numerous posts a lot of mistakes are made dosing copper etc as not only are they new to the hobby there new to quarantine using medication so potentially 2 points of failure. I think the observation route is far more realistic and in all fairness in the vast majority of cases CI and velvet are easy to spot, other diseases less so but IMO treating anything else is probably beyond most newbies and a lot of experienced reefers alike.. I’d advise all newcomers to read all the threads and make a balanced decision but also remember that quarantine means everything not just fish.
OP
OP
Brew12
Electrical Gru
This has been discussed, but it isn't going to happen. Not any time soon. It's not from a lack of want-to, either. As influential as R2R is, it isn't big enough. Probably best to leave it at that.
Who can help me with my new tusk?
Quit trying to stir the pot [emoji12]
drstardust
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Loll ok I get it now [emoji854]
I thought he was just joking about the “spots” in the water column, but he started a topic regarding the tusk in the disease forum so now I’m not so sure...
MnFish1
10K Club member
NO it was a joke from @Lasse 's post. @ngoodermuth Did I post it in the disease forum????? I meant to post it here. you can move it.
MnFish1
10K Club member
SORRY - I meant for that to be here.
and yes the fish is fine - well actually the fish is dead - he jumped out about a day later - by pushing a cover off the edges of the tank (somehow) - he was a great fish. BUT - the interesting thing is - that the reason I took that picture was because it illustrates not all fish behave the same way - and at first I did think something was wrong with it - and was going to post it after as an example.
MaccaPopEye
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I don't know if I agree with this. What you are describing is already what the disease forum is for (IMO). It does have threads on how to QT with the current "best practices" etc. but it is also where people would go if they need a quick diagnosis and a choice of actions. Yes, those 2 things could be separated but it's not quite what I thought this article / thread was about.
I thought the point of the article is not just for "what if" people can't/don't prophylactically treat fish in QT because the meds get banned, but also (and more importantly) "what if" those meds don't work anymore and what can we do to get away from using them. So NOT treating a diseased / infected fish is kind of the point? Discovering methods where fish can be kept healthy without needing to treat diseased / infected fish 90% of the time is maybe what the hobby needs to move towards?
I thought the goal here was more to have a forum section that explores the kind of reefing where there is more reliance on bolstering a fishes immune system rather than automatically treating diseased / infected fish. Of course this method of reefing doesn't by any means need to exclude medication in all cases, but I don't think treatment should always be the first option.
Personally, with my tank atm, I wouldn't treat a sick fish unless I felt I absolutely had to. I would certainly do other things to try and help it survive and beat whatever disease / infection it had but taking a fish out to treat and medicate it would be a last resort (and I can't easily get any medication aside from copper anyway due to where I live so I can't treat everything).
I think if this gets included with current QT methods it could get lost in the sea of people who do practise / support prophylactic treatment and it won't gain much traction. I think the current QT threads in the disease forum do a great job of outlining the current best practices for QT and they work well where they are.
If we do have a separate forum section I think discussions around non-medicated QT methods would be good, but it would just be a part of a wider forum section and would be different to the discussion about QT in the disease forum.
I like the idea of calling the sub-forum "Holistic Natural Reef Husbandry". Because it's not just about QT protocols, it's not just about if or when to use medications, it's not just about ich/velvet/other disease management, it's not just about how to set up a "natural" reef tank from the start, it's a truly holistic approach to keeping a tank without medication (or at the least only using medication when it absolutely must be used).
I think the word holistic really hits the nail on the head here
Holistic
- Philosophy
characterized by the belief that the parts of something are intimately interconnected and explicable only by reference to the whole
- Medicine
characterized by the treatment of the whole person, taking into account mental and social factors, rather than just the symptoms of a disease.
