A Modern Take on Lineage

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RichieT

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So I've been thinking about this for a while and finally figured I'd write out some of my thoughts.

I imagine this is a very debatable topic and goes hand in hand with the "name game" that we all love to play so much. So remember, opinions are like bellybuttons, everybody has one. So if someone disagrees with you don't go crying hater and flamer, just roll with it.

As the coral industry pushes forward and expands, things that we have taken for granted in the past, will eventually change. Unlike technology, which we all like to adopt fairly quickly, new ideas and concepts take a lot longer to adopted and even longer to be generally accepted.

I believe "lineage" is one of the things that most collectors hold very close to heart. The whole "this is a x vendor's coral or y vendor's coral" For most of these collector pieces it was what made the difference between a $200 colony and a $200 per eye frag. I assume that when the hobby started and really got moving it was fairly easy to keep this practice alive. There were only so many people importing and then redistributing. On top of that there were only so many people buying. This relatively limited number of people meant that colonies were maintained and sold in whole and when they were distributed by a vendor or a hobbyist lineage really did mean something. You were tracing the coral back to probably the only guy that had that specific morph of that specific coral. I'm generalizing here of course, but you get the gist.

Today, however, importers and wholesalers have realized or are starting to realize that the hobby is picking up steam and more money is flooding into the market. They are importing more coral than ever before. They are propagating coral themselves. Colonies are being split up and frags are being distributed to not one but many vendors.

There have been several instances of this in just the last few months where somebody posts a picture and a handful of others chime in that they've seen the same thing elsewhere.

People then get defensive that only their coral is the "real" deal. Which in a sense it is because they named it something. That name belongs to them in a way. We aren't copy-writing coral names... YET.

But this brings me to my overall point. As the hobby expands and coral is propagated before it even hits the wholesalers and then vendors how important is lineage? If 8 people get mini-colonies of the exact same colony is it fair to cry foul when someone uses the same name? It's going to happen regardless, but it doesn't hurt to talk about it in the open.

Sometimes, I think this topic is avoided because it also brings into question how limited or rare corals really are.

Rich
 
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I think if a line has become established and has a name that name should be kept and used no matter who has it. An example Jason Fox My Miami. If no line is established then you can use whatever name you want. I don't agree with an established line having its name changed just to make it seem like its something different or is originated and/or only owned by the person changing its name. The main conversation point here will be what is "established" and how is it determined.
 
I'm a newbie Rich, but I have contemplated this topic myself, and even chimed in on some other threads of the same basic topic. When I try to wrap my arms around it, and apply some parallels, I think of the AKC, and dogs. If it has not happened already, some vendor is surely going to create something like that, perhaps the ACC, for corals. I also wonder, from a DNA perspective, just how much, or little, true diversity there is in species. I wonder if one vendor's Candied Raven's Blood Red Acro isn't one and the same as another's Fire Truck Acro, just with different lighting & nutrients over time. Again, as a newbie, and in my relative ignorance, I wonder if it's all not a scam, just vendors driving the market, and in their minds being infringed upon. I went to my first "frag swap" not too long ago. It reminded me of the back of our local toy store, where all these guys play role playing games with 12 sided die and trade playing cards of a million flavors. Geese, I just like corals. I hope I don't become one of those guys. (Sorry to the dungeons and dragons folks - just an example)
 
This is a topic I tend to write long rants about, then delete it all in favor of a less controversial single sentence or paragraph...lol.

The Ocean is a vast body of water much larger than all of the wholesalers combines. The amount of reef life in the ocean is less, but it is still much larger than the general public seems to think it is. When a coral is harvested and sold through the channels, the harvester has not removed ALL of that coral from the reef, never to find it again. With this said, it makes it hard for me to put any value in the LE, Ultra, Rare, and other tags used to describe the corals within our trade.

The same goes for lineage as I feel the only way you can say you have a Tyree Ponape Birdsnest is if you have written documentation following the line of the coral and are willing to supply that documentation to the purchaser of the frag. Too many are running around with a sale thread selling all the latest and greatest named corals, but is either unable or unwilling to provide the direct lineage of the exact coral in their possession. For example, if you buy a pure-bred poodle, you get pedigree paperwork to prove it is pure. With corals, you have to go by the looks of the coral to determine its pedigree. Sure it looks like a Mummy Eye, but is it a Tyree, SC, Ming, JF, etc (Not picking on a sponsor here, just naming off the ones I know exist. Many more probably do so if I left you out I apologize in advance) or just another common chalice taken from the ocean that just happens to resemble one of the aforementioned LE names? You really cannot tell without paperwork, but with a little help from Photoshop's saturation slider you can make it look like any number of different LE names...

So if you buy that next $1000 per eye chalice and expect to sell frags in the future, ask the vendor to provide a Certificate of Authenticity (COA) for the coral so you can prove that you got it from the vendor and it is what you say it is. If you don't have that certificate, you technically cannot PROVE lineage and buyers either need to trust you or buy the coral knowing it may not be what they are expecting...

For an example outside of the coral industry, take a person's family heritage and family lineage. You can trace it back many years due to the paper trail that exists. This lineage could prove to show that you either had royal blood in the 18th century or could prove that you are a descendant from a regular laborer working in a normal job for normal wages. If you happened to have royal blood in your family lineage, you probably have a family crest that you have rights to use due to the traceable lineage of your family. If you cannot prove the lineage, you have zero right to use that family crest.

Not being able to show proper documentation does not make the coral ugly by any means. It is still a nice coral and desirable by many people. However it should make the coral more affordable as it should lose the LE naming since there is no proof. A Red Dragon Acro is beautiful no matter if it is the real deal or if it is a copy (It is technically maricultured now so should be very cheap). Same goes for that controversial purple coral people fight about all the time... So without paperwork, a SC Mummy eye is just a Mummy eye. A JF Mummy Eye without paperwork would be, you guessed it, a Mummy Eye...

So I decided to leave my rant this time... I don't believe in lineage or the LE labeling of corals without written documentation. If you can truly prove the lineage of the coral, then so be it. But in the end with how many hands these frags go through, lineage is really a lost methodology in the hobby.
 
Okay flame suit on. I think mother nature makes many thousands of all these corals. As with all creatures some individuals more attractive than others and as with all that can change over time and with age. Many a ugly duckling has become a beautiful swan in time. I think this is very savvy marketing designed to separate money from those with too much of it and to maximize profits on a colony. If you want it wait, soon it will not be the flavor of the week and as common as dirt. Mother natures only marketing tool is beauty thru diversity.
 
Nice one Rich, love this thread topic and in agreement with all ^above^ posts. I'll see where this goes for a few days before adding my $0.02 or just enjoy reading all others comments.

Cheers, Todd
 
What I like about named stuff is that we have a better idea of what we are talking about. A few weeks back I picked up an ORA red planet, and something that looks like a red planet at FRAG. I know how the ORP should look when it matures, as for the "imposter" time will tell what it turns into.
 
What I like about named stuff is that we have a better idea of what we are talking about. A few weeks back I picked up an ORA red planet, and something that looks like a red planet at FRAG. I know how the ORP should look when it matures, as for the "imposter" time will tell what it turns into.

I'm not arguing that things shouldn't be named by any means. Naming things is of utmost importance to anything we do because without a reference name we would all have to agree on descriptions that end up becoming names anyway.

I am also not talking about older pieces that have become staples of the hobby like the BPC Flamethrower or the JF My Miami. It is quite likely that those were brought in as individual colonies and one person named and then distributed it. Tracing that lineage back is difficult sometimes, but those pieces are also fairly iconic.

I'm thinking more along the lines of newer stuff coming in.
 
Here goes Rich stirring the pot again lol!

If the pot doesn't get stirred the bottom gets burnt. Lol

It never hurts to look at common practices to see if they are stilll relevant. This hobby is incredibly young in the overall scheme of things. Looking at how things were done and how things are done can help shape how things will be done in the future.
 
I'm thinking more along the lines of newer stuff coming in.
In the software business, if products don't change, vendors don't make money. Same with automobiles. They have terms like "version creep" and "planned obsolescence". It's very purposeful. Maybe the same is true in the coral business, just more subtle, maybe their term is "morphs".
 
In the software business, if products don't change, vendors don't make money. Same with automobiles. They have terms like "version creep" and "planned obsolescence". It's very purposeful. Maybe the same is true in the coral business, just more subtle, maybe their term is "morphs".

I understand what you are saying here, but I'm not sure if it is 100% relevant. Cars and software have a tendency to make slow incremental improvements over the course of a year or two years etc... The coral business is changing daily. New coral is being important weekly if not daily. While some of the stuff coming in is a subtle morph of something we have already seen, there is so much other stuff coming in that there is always going to be the flavor of the month. Maybe I missunderstood or I'm 100% off. Just thinking outloud.
 
Ehh. It's probably me. I would have never assumed there was, and don't see it myself, that there's "new" stuff every day, week, or month for that matter. Then again, I don't know what I'm looking at.
 
The definition of lineage changed because the purpose of lineage has changed. All of the following is my opinion, if I mess some facts up, please correct me.

Naming corals went mainstream with Tyree and his LE corals (the first named coral was Tubbs Blues btw, something the owner was not happy about just for a quick fact). Tyree was naming corals that came in and held their color and their morphology and would be easy to propagate. It was a way for people to know that it was an aquacultured coral and that coral was not just pulled off of the reef and could change colors or just straight up die on them. Tyree was sent these corals (that is right he never bought them) and he would grow it out and observe it and then if it held true it would be named and release.

On top of this you had sites like coralpedia who were trying to come up with a "dictionary" of corals (obviously focused on zoas). To get your coral named you had to send in pictures, daylight and actinic, which they would then compare to know morphs. If is was something new it was given a name and a new entry, if it was not then that did not happen. Again this was to keep track of certain zoas and how they grew and easily be able to talk about husbandry. For example, a purple people eater likes lower light in a tank, this is known because that coral has been around and propagated for a while (fun fact, they came in brown and colored up).

So what happened? Greed. The downfall to Tyree is that people wanted names so that drove up price. He was not hacking apart wild colonies, he was aquaculturing corals which led to a slower supply. Obviously slow supply, high demand and the prices went up (Miami hurricane went for 225$ an eye back in the day). Other vendors noticed this and the name game blew up. Every coral had to have a name or it was not a good coral. Some of the good guys still kept the aquaculturing goal in mind and made sure they were selling good stable corals. Other turned into chop shops, bringing in corals, taking a good picture, slapping a name and high price and wash and repeat.

Now we have his the next wave which is hobbyist naming. We hobbyists have a much better source of wild and maricultured corals then ever before. Plus with sites like R2R and social media, we have access to pictures and corals from all over the world. Basement guys are getting wholesaler license and bringing in rocks and rocks of corals to sell. So now that hobbyists have more access, they are jumping on the game as well. Again, driven by greed they are getting mariculured corals (which today are hundreds of times better then they were even a few years ago) and naming them and trying to make a quick buck on unsuspecting reefers.

Now the use of lineage has changed. First is was to prove it was aquaculutred, now it is being used to prove you paid a lot of money for something. That is why people are so touchy about lineage, it is just to protect their "investment" which is just a completely foolhardy opinion to have on corals.
 
The definition of lineage changed because the purpose of lineage has changed. All of the following is my opinion, if I mess some facts up, please correct me.

Naming corals went mainstream with Tyree and his LE corals (the first named coral was Tubbs Blues btw, something the owner was not happy about just for a quick fact). Tyree was naming corals that came in and held their color and their morphology and would be easy to propagate. It was a way for people to know that it was an aquacultured coral and that coral was not just pulled off of the reef and could change colors or just straight up die on them. Tyree was sent these corals (that is right he never bought them) and he would grow it out and observe it and then if it held true it would be named and release.

On top of this you had sites like coralpedia who were trying to come up with a "dictionary" of corals (obviously focused on zoas). To get your coral named you had to send in pictures, daylight and actinic, which they would then compare to know morphs. If is was something new it was given a name and a new entry, if it was not then that did not happen. Again this was to keep track of certain zoas and how they grew and easily be able to talk about husbandry. For example, a purple people eater likes lower light in a tank, this is known because that coral has been around and propagated for a while (fun fact, they came in brown and colored up).

So what happened? Greed. The downfall to Tyree is that people wanted names so that drove up price. He was not hacking apart wild colonies, he was aquaculturing corals which led to a slower supply. Obviously slow supply, high demand and the prices went up (Miami hurricane went for 225$ an eye back in the day). Other vendors noticed this and the name game blew up. Every coral had to have a name or it was not a good coral. Some of the good guys still kept the aquaculturing goal in mind and made sure they were selling good stable corals. Other turned into chop shops, bringing in corals, taking a good picture, slapping a name and high price and wash and repeat.

Now we have his the next wave which is hobbyist naming. We hobbyists have a much better source of wild and maricultured corals then ever before. Plus with sites like R2R and social media, we have access to pictures and corals from all over the world. Basement guys are getting wholesaler license and bringing in rocks and rocks of corals to sell. So now that hobbyists have more access, they are jumping on the game as well. Again, driven by greed they are getting mariculured corals (which today are hundreds of times better then they were even a few years ago) and naming them and trying to make a quick buck on unsuspecting reefers.

Now the use of lineage has changed. First is was to prove it was aquaculutred, now it is being used to prove you paid a lot of money for something. That is why people are so touchy about lineage, it is just to protect their "investment" which is just a completely foolhardy opinion to have on corals.

Excellent synopsis. I haven't been in the hobby long enough to see the actual changes so I had to make general assumptions. What you put into words was what I was thinking.

Lineage still has meaning in the hobby today. Unfortunately it doesn't always have the same meaning that it once did. It's not necessarily a bad thing but it is something to be aware of.
 
Best analogy i see going on is this.....

I'm gonna buy a Hyundai for $500 off a thug in the hood who's last name is fox. Put a Benz logo on the hood, call is Jason fox Benz and sell for $5k.

I think lineage is important for collectors BUT the problem is that there are few of us and the majority are hobbyists. I hate to see a hobbyist that bought a $2 frag off another hobbyist and then name it tyree of jf or better yet example....

Friend of mine went to local lfs other day and lfs employee said these are cornbred fruit loops! We go to same wholesaler. First of all they don't go to same wholesaler (I'm a stickler and know for a fact because I've confirmed and also if you see their livestock in store it's obvious). But my point is "fruit loops" cool! "Cornbred fruit loops" at $5/pp is ******.

When someone puts a name on it like that it irks me just as much as misnaming all together. In the county I live in or the one close I am often in, everyone is too cheap to spend more than $10-$20 on a frag but then they're the first ones to slap a tyree of cb title on something and try and sell for $30/pp. they are all constantly like thrift shopping shopping cheap and hoping to find a gem later! I have been on r2r a while, and as most know, I call a spade a spade and often tick people off.

The other problem I see is re-naming an already named coral. I know this is contrary to what I just ranted about above but there was just a vendor selling CARS as something else. WTHHHHHHHH? They're CARS dude same exact don't re-name you're not important anyway so it won't matter. There was a short thread with these "new" polyps and already forgotten. If they are identical like bam bams and Jason fox atomic whatever or radioactive dragon eyes and Jason fox fast money (really ironic! Lol dragon eyes at $15/pp is fast money). Same polyp and vendor re-names instead of just listing as is "A FREAKING HERPE"! Lol

Sooooooo we all need to stick together on the lineage thing and don't make me be the only bad guy! Stop being so politically correct!

I'm done!

........for now! Lol
 
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Excellent synopsis.
+1
...BUT the problem is that there are few of us and the majority are hobbyists...
I find this interesting. I've never thought of it like that before. If there is a consensus among collectors, who these sellers are who commit impropriety with naming and lineage, it would be nice to list them, create a watch list. Perhaps in this forum that would create a conflict of interest however.
 
I don't mind names for keeping different morphs straight, but it seems like everything gets a name now regardless of whether it's truly different or exceptional. This leads to situations where very similar corals have different names. To me, unless the vendor you buy a coral from is the vendor who named the coral, you're taking your chances. I doubt most people have documentation of the corals lineage other than the sellers word. I'm sure there are very few people who have copies of every persons receipts for each person that coral has passed through. For that reason lineage has never been important to me. In the current system there is no way of knowing if you're getting the "real" thing. If you like the coral, buy it. Why care about the name? I'll put it this way: not buying a coral you like because of its name/lineage is like not marrying someone you love because of their name. It's never been about the name for me. Unless a system like the AKC is set up which approves and issues documentation, and I have a hard time envisioning that ever happening, then you can never be 100% sure of that lineage.
 
This thread is turning out to be better than I even expected it would be. GREAT POSTS by mnat and Pappy ( I'll be your counterpart from the Northwest). NOT BEING A FLAVOR OF THE MONTH guy I find it more than humorous the amount of money people will spend on single polyps for their "Look at me.... see what I got" egos. I know I know "To each their own" but....... come on man.... really ? I have been in the hobby/business for 40-ish years now (Reefkeeping for about 32 years now) when I worked retail management in the business I ordered nearly everything by its scientific/latin name and became fairly adept at deciphering the latin word descriptions to know better as what animals were on the faxed availability list in my hand. This was mid to late 1970's and mostly only able to import from Philipines, Hawaii, Marshal Islands and Caribbean/Florida and long before named corals or even many of the common fish named now, and long long before the internet's WYSIWYG purchasing. Fun/sad fact: I used to buy assorted non-named Meat and or Rose Corals (aka Cynarina, Wellsophylia, Trachyphyllia, Lobophyllia) 2-3 dozen at a time for $5-8 to feed my Angels and Butterflys. I would throw in a couple alive and rest into non zip-lock bags and freeze. I would often think 'man these corals are so beautiful... wish I could keep them alive...' Of course these were in my Fish Only Dead Coral Tanks of the day. I was introduced into Reefkeeping 'Berlin' and 'Jaubert' Style by Martin Moe Jr. in 1982 and have been a serious addict since. I was also very fortunate to have met and visit with Bob Moore out here (who was one of the coral contributors to Tyree) an early pioneer in successfully propagating then normally sharing starts of, not selling his many beautiful established Corals (I have a beautiful, though now common Bob Moore Tort).
Part of me absolutely hates the 'Name Game' with the showmanship that goes with it and part of me accepts it as a necessary evil in keeping the $'s flowing in our hobby. A big hurdle of the lineage proof is that the Corals themselves are so variable even within the same colony SPS, LPS, Zoa/Paly does not matter. So a Wholesale Importer/Vendor purchases the big wild colonies for a few dollars or a few more for maricultered ones and dissects out a favorable piece/section/polyp names it then markets it as "??? ????? ???" Oh so rare, Oh so beautiful, Oh so frickin much money!
IMHO these corals all being morphs of the common mother colony in which under same conditions any part could/would do the same. So I buy or trade for Corals that I like (not for others) from other like minded Reefkeepers and normally could care less for their 'Fancy Names' other than catching my attention and seeing what all the fuss is about.

Once again, Great thread topic Rich and will continue to follow along.

Cheers, Todd
 

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